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5Toubun no Hanayome - Vol. 7 Ch. 56 - The Last Exam - Yotsuba’s Side
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@phoenixir @Kohpi whoops, forgot spoiler tags is exist
@b-no 56 actually last week mate, it's the translator that just slow
@b-no 56 actually last week mate, it's the translator that just slow
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So how does the japanese grading system work? I know here in the US that anything below 70 is considered failing, but here I'm seeing a lot of grades in the 30-50's range and they're happy about it. And not just in this manga but a lot of other manga and anime as well. I assume it has something to do with the total of all of the scores together. What would be considered passing then?
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@Laplaz4869
You're slow.
56 came out on Wednesday this week, 57 comes out on Wednesday next week.
Those are just spoilers from a guy who gets all the magazines way early.
Don't spread misinformation if you have no idea what you're talking about.
@AeiroWultx
You need at least 30 points from a subject to pass. At least it works like that in this manga.
You're slow.
56 came out on Wednesday this week, 57 comes out on Wednesday next week.
Those are just spoilers from a guy who gets all the magazines way early.
Don't spread misinformation if you have no idea what you're talking about.
@AeiroWultx
You need at least 30 points from a subject to pass. At least it works like that in this manga.
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The best girl pass, great Yotsuba!?
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@yamibi @kuma
I mean I guess what I don't understand is this: If a test covers everything that has been taught in class, it seems beyond ridiculous that a student could only retain 30% of it and be considered a passing student. Personally, I was someone who scored in the 95+ range on tests. ACT college preparedness tests for example, I was in the 98th percentage overall. I also studied maybe 1/20th as much as the typical Japanese student seems to in manga/anime.
60/100 is a D- in American grading, and is the lowest possible score one can get before failing. And when it comes to college, a D in a class that's not part of your major may count toward your graduation, but you wouldn't be able to transfer credit for that class to another college, and you'd have to retake the class if it was part of the requirements for your major. Additionally, the college I went to had a harsher grading system than normal -- If you wanted a 4.0 Grade Point Average, you'd need a full A, that was 93-100%. 90-92 was an A-, and only got you a 3.7 GPA. You'd need at least a 73% to 'pass' classes in your major.
The only possibilities I can draw from the Japanese system are these:
1) Japanese accept mediocrity and think 30% is good enough. But if that's true, then 70% their education is wasted time, and a change in lesson plans/teaching strategies is in order.
2) Tests cover far more material not covered by teachers. But if that's true, then why are they testing students on material they've not been taught?
A student who regularly scores 30-50% on tests in America is in serious need of professional help. And if they really are studying as hard as they can, they probably have learning disabilities or extremely low IQs.
I mean I guess what I don't understand is this: If a test covers everything that has been taught in class, it seems beyond ridiculous that a student could only retain 30% of it and be considered a passing student. Personally, I was someone who scored in the 95+ range on tests. ACT college preparedness tests for example, I was in the 98th percentage overall. I also studied maybe 1/20th as much as the typical Japanese student seems to in manga/anime.
60/100 is a D- in American grading, and is the lowest possible score one can get before failing. And when it comes to college, a D in a class that's not part of your major may count toward your graduation, but you wouldn't be able to transfer credit for that class to another college, and you'd have to retake the class if it was part of the requirements for your major. Additionally, the college I went to had a harsher grading system than normal -- If you wanted a 4.0 Grade Point Average, you'd need a full A, that was 93-100%. 90-92 was an A-, and only got you a 3.7 GPA. You'd need at least a 73% to 'pass' classes in your major.
The only possibilities I can draw from the Japanese system are these:
1) Japanese accept mediocrity and think 30% is good enough. But if that's true, then 70% their education is wasted time, and a change in lesson plans/teaching strategies is in order.
2) Tests cover far more material not covered by teachers. But if that's true, then why are they testing students on material they've not been taught?
A student who regularly scores 30-50% on tests in America is in serious need of professional help. And if they really are studying as hard as they can, they probably have learning disabilities or extremely low IQs.
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@LysandersTreason
Just to keep this brief, I would say there is a fault in perspective. This is the Japanese system, so applying an American idea to it, while sound because it may your only knowledge of Education, is the wrong approach. This in ways is evident in ho you end up stating that the system is either "a waste of time," "needs a change of plans" or "the students who get those scores are in serious need of professional help." Try researching online, or going to a university with a Japanese department and ask a professor if they know the why.
The shorthand to why 30% is pass is because, at the least, Japan wants to give a lay-off to individuals who are not seeking for a higher education. This is reflected not only the low 30% pass mark (most students will reach 60% if not 70%), but in how you can essentially be a failure in Elementary and Secondary/Middle school and still be able to move up a grade; there is no repeating until you enter High School. On the other end, High Schools do have entrance exams, especially if they are more prestigious; university exams are even more competitive, where many HS students will go to cram school to prepare for those, since your grades in high school don't directly affect the outcome of those exams (you could have been so-so in HS, but study well in the in-between and pass for Uni). There is the mentality that strangling unwilling students with grades is possibly more harmful than help.
Also take into consideration that the American education system is actually a bit more lenient on what is being taught. You may have gone off to do ACT and other higher end classes, but that may not apply to all schools. The level of difficulty for courses in a Japanese school is that bit more higher than an American school, so a 30% may be closer to a 50%, with a 70% over there being 80% here (essentially, the grades would adjust upwards).
"Tests cover far more material not covered by teachers. But if that's true, then why are they testing students on material they've not been taught?" The purpose of education is not just what is in class, but to learn how to self-study. This is something that an individual may find out in University in the USA, as classes cover far more less of the whole material while you are required to read books after books that will be tested. Implementing that early on can be helpful in instilling better study habits, or to expose those who are not willing to study those materials for the test.
And a bit of a personal interjection, but what is the point of making a student think that you have to be part of the top 30% to be "successful"? This goes hand-in-hand with the "strangling education" statement I made above, where it may be better to make the actual benchmark at the mid-point. What also came to mind was this question: how many films from outside the USA have included a joke about a student needing to ask their professor/teacher to give them a better grade to please a parent? For now, I don't think I've encountered that in a Japanese film.
Apologies for the long criticism of your reply, but it just felt there was a lack of understanding among the commenters that I wished to fill in the holes. If some of the points are not clear, please let me know.
Just to keep this brief, I would say there is a fault in perspective. This is the Japanese system, so applying an American idea to it, while sound because it may your only knowledge of Education, is the wrong approach. This in ways is evident in ho you end up stating that the system is either "a waste of time," "needs a change of plans" or "the students who get those scores are in serious need of professional help." Try researching online, or going to a university with a Japanese department and ask a professor if they know the why.
The shorthand to why 30% is pass is because, at the least, Japan wants to give a lay-off to individuals who are not seeking for a higher education. This is reflected not only the low 30% pass mark (most students will reach 60% if not 70%), but in how you can essentially be a failure in Elementary and Secondary/Middle school and still be able to move up a grade; there is no repeating until you enter High School. On the other end, High Schools do have entrance exams, especially if they are more prestigious; university exams are even more competitive, where many HS students will go to cram school to prepare for those, since your grades in high school don't directly affect the outcome of those exams (you could have been so-so in HS, but study well in the in-between and pass for Uni). There is the mentality that strangling unwilling students with grades is possibly more harmful than help.
Also take into consideration that the American education system is actually a bit more lenient on what is being taught. You may have gone off to do ACT and other higher end classes, but that may not apply to all schools. The level of difficulty for courses in a Japanese school is that bit more higher than an American school, so a 30% may be closer to a 50%, with a 70% over there being 80% here (essentially, the grades would adjust upwards).
"Tests cover far more material not covered by teachers. But if that's true, then why are they testing students on material they've not been taught?" The purpose of education is not just what is in class, but to learn how to self-study. This is something that an individual may find out in University in the USA, as classes cover far more less of the whole material while you are required to read books after books that will be tested. Implementing that early on can be helpful in instilling better study habits, or to expose those who are not willing to study those materials for the test.
And a bit of a personal interjection, but what is the point of making a student think that you have to be part of the top 30% to be "successful"? This goes hand-in-hand with the "strangling education" statement I made above, where it may be better to make the actual benchmark at the mid-point. What also came to mind was this question: how many films from outside the USA have included a joke about a student needing to ask their professor/teacher to give them a better grade to please a parent? For now, I don't think I've encountered that in a Japanese film.
Apologies for the long criticism of your reply, but it just felt there was a lack of understanding among the commenters that I wished to fill in the holes. If some of the points are not clear, please let me know.
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@GreenMoriyama
THAT WASN'T BRIEF.
But seriously tho, to compress what you're saying for the lazy. Asian schooling, particularly Japanese and Korean are fucking Spartan, in layman's terms. There's a reason kids who are immigrants from that country often end up a grade or two above. They also acknowledge the fact that having high passing standards can more often than not be counter productive, especially in an academically driven society, such as theirs.
THAT WASN'T BRIEF.
But seriously tho, to compress what you're saying for the lazy. Asian schooling, particularly Japanese and Korean are fucking Spartan, in layman's terms. There's a reason kids who are immigrants from that country often end up a grade or two above. They also acknowledge the fact that having high passing standards can more often than not be counter productive, especially in an academically driven society, such as theirs.
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@greenmoriyama
The reason I posted is because I don't understand the Japanese system, not because I do. But I do understand the American system. I've worked in education, at American high schools (in addition to of course my own studies, and tutoring high school and college age students).
I do as well understand that the Japanese basically are willing to let kids stop going to school at 14/15 and just enter the workforce with a middle school education. That's something Americans don't do though - you have to be 16 to drop out here, and your employment prospects will be close to nil without a diploma.
So basically with Americans, every year builds on the previous year's knowledge. Understanding 70%+ of the material means you have a pretty decent understanding of it. That's crucial to have, because your next class in that subject is going to assume first that you already have that previous knowledge and will apply more advanced concepts.
If a student were only absorbing 30% of the knowledge of like, 6th grade math, there's no way he or she would be prepared for 7th grade math. They'd just start falling further and further behind -- which is why American schools won't let a student move on until they've mastered the current concepts -- there's literally no point in taking the next class, because they don't have the tools to succeed yet.
American schools are certainly guilty of just passing kids without actually teaching them. It happens all over. For example, in Detroit only 1 in 20 students can read and do math 'at grade level proficiency'. Meaning like, 1 in 20 students would be getting a 60-70% or above and 19 out of 20 would fail. Another story that recently hit the news is that a teacher was fired because she gave a student a zero for projects not turned in -- and apparently the school's policy is that the lowest score a student can receive is 50% on any assignment. (which is total bullshit and not normal btw). But yeah so in that school, all scores would be between 50% and 100%.
As far as my personal education, I didn't do much in the way of advanced courses. I went to a small, rural school. The only 'advanced' course I took was I skipped 7th grade math and started with 8th grade math, so I was 1 year ahead. Otherwise, my education in school was the same as every other students'. I just read a lot on my own for fun. In fact I slept through most classes my senior year, and stayed up all night just playing video games
As far as my personal college experience, I never once had a class where we were tested on materials not covered in class. Like there would be assigned readings, but we would eventually talk about/discuss those readings, and there would be lecture notes to take, but every single class I ever had, the teacher would explain exactly what material was going to be covered on the test. It was up to us to do the studying necessary, but we at least knew like, "You'll be tested in multiple choice about concepts from pages 1 through 216 in Book X, and pages 75-153 in Book Y. Here's a list of 30 possible essay questions. There will be four questions from this list on the test."
The reason I posted is because I don't understand the Japanese system, not because I do. But I do understand the American system. I've worked in education, at American high schools (in addition to of course my own studies, and tutoring high school and college age students).
I do as well understand that the Japanese basically are willing to let kids stop going to school at 14/15 and just enter the workforce with a middle school education. That's something Americans don't do though - you have to be 16 to drop out here, and your employment prospects will be close to nil without a diploma.
So basically with Americans, every year builds on the previous year's knowledge. Understanding 70%+ of the material means you have a pretty decent understanding of it. That's crucial to have, because your next class in that subject is going to assume first that you already have that previous knowledge and will apply more advanced concepts.
If a student were only absorbing 30% of the knowledge of like, 6th grade math, there's no way he or she would be prepared for 7th grade math. They'd just start falling further and further behind -- which is why American schools won't let a student move on until they've mastered the current concepts -- there's literally no point in taking the next class, because they don't have the tools to succeed yet.
American schools are certainly guilty of just passing kids without actually teaching them. It happens all over. For example, in Detroit only 1 in 20 students can read and do math 'at grade level proficiency'. Meaning like, 1 in 20 students would be getting a 60-70% or above and 19 out of 20 would fail. Another story that recently hit the news is that a teacher was fired because she gave a student a zero for projects not turned in -- and apparently the school's policy is that the lowest score a student can receive is 50% on any assignment. (which is total bullshit and not normal btw). But yeah so in that school, all scores would be between 50% and 100%.
As far as my personal education, I didn't do much in the way of advanced courses. I went to a small, rural school. The only 'advanced' course I took was I skipped 7th grade math and started with 8th grade math, so I was 1 year ahead. Otherwise, my education in school was the same as every other students'. I just read a lot on my own for fun. In fact I slept through most classes my senior year, and stayed up all night just playing video games
As far as my personal college experience, I never once had a class where we were tested on materials not covered in class. Like there would be assigned readings, but we would eventually talk about/discuss those readings, and there would be lecture notes to take, but every single class I ever had, the teacher would explain exactly what material was going to be covered on the test. It was up to us to do the studying necessary, but we at least knew like, "You'll be tested in multiple choice about concepts from pages 1 through 216 in Book X, and pages 75-153 in Book Y. Here's a list of 30 possible essay questions. There will be four questions from this list on the test."
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@LysandersTreason slightly reminder that japan is above US in education rankings....
anyways, the difficulty of expected from japanese test and US test is simply far different...
anyways, the difficulty of expected from japanese test and US test is simply far different...
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@kuma
Yeah well as I said, we have our problems, too. Our public school system is horribly broken in other ways -- basically, we lack the will to actually make sure all teachers are competent and we lack the will to make sure students in class behave. I don't know that the difficulty on tests is any different, though. Just we have so many students that fail. Also, in Japan, by 15 (when they do the tests for worldwide rankings), the worst students have already quit going, but in the U.S. they're still there.
You know how sometimes they'll show a problem school where the delinquents sort of run the classroom, ignoring the teacher and doing whatever they want instead of learning? I've experienced that first-hand.
In short we have a large portion of the population -- mostly in inner cities -- dragging everyone else's averages down.
Yeah well as I said, we have our problems, too. Our public school system is horribly broken in other ways -- basically, we lack the will to actually make sure all teachers are competent and we lack the will to make sure students in class behave. I don't know that the difficulty on tests is any different, though. Just we have so many students that fail. Also, in Japan, by 15 (when they do the tests for worldwide rankings), the worst students have already quit going, but in the U.S. they're still there.
You know how sometimes they'll show a problem school where the delinquents sort of run the classroom, ignoring the teacher and doing whatever they want instead of learning? I've experienced that first-hand.
In short we have a large portion of the population -- mostly in inner cities -- dragging everyone else's averages down.
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>As far as my personal college experience, I never once had a class where we were tested on materials not covered in class.
Maybe it happens more often is STEM. I've had multiple courses in leafland where assigned reading materials were on exams/tests. There simply isn't enough lecture time to go over everything we need to know.
Maybe it happens more often is STEM. I've had multiple courses in leafland where assigned reading materials were on exams/tests. There simply isn't enough lecture time to go over everything we need to know.
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@LysandersTreason
Did you know High School in Japan is not mandatory? You can start working after Middle School. In Poland High School is mandatory so 30% for passing grade is maybe(?) because of that. Also you should know the education standards in Poland, Korea ,Japan are much higher than in USA -study shows that on average citizens from those countreis are "better" educated than those in USA. My opinion is based on the articles and studies I've read some time ago - which means the data could be outdated.
Did you know High School in Japan is not mandatory? You can start working after Middle School. In Poland High School is mandatory so 30% for passing grade is maybe(?) because of that. Also you should know the education standards in Poland, Korea ,Japan are much higher than in USA -study shows that on average citizens from those countreis are "better" educated than those in USA. My opinion is based on the articles and studies I've read some time ago - which means the data could be outdated.
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@LysandersTreason
What luck, we are both individuals who have been involved in the US education system. I was at UC Berkeley, and did my end of teaching classes or tutoring.
Otherwise I do believe the others have covered what I'd respond with. I still stand my comment that if you desired, you could research or reach out to resources to understand the Japanese education system instead of just keeping to "what you know." If I wanted to understand, let's say, the French education system and hear that they used to have Saturday school, should I just react based on my own education and compare just, or should I look it up, read more and see why the system chooses that. If it's similar (which they were since Japan used to have mandatory Saturday school, but now it's either optional or does not exist), then I could draw conclusions that the reasons align with why my education system did it; if they are not similar, then instead of calling out on it being "wrong," I should consider that each system, be it from a third world or another first world country, has their reasons. That reason could be stupid, or it could be completely within reason.
If you didn't attempt to go through that, I find it disappointing because that is one thing education at least taught me: research things on my own, not because others (teachers/professors) asked me to. If you didn't want to take the time because this is online and not a place for educated discussion... oh well, don't have much to say to that.
What luck, we are both individuals who have been involved in the US education system. I was at UC Berkeley, and did my end of teaching classes or tutoring.
Otherwise I do believe the others have covered what I'd respond with. I still stand my comment that if you desired, you could research or reach out to resources to understand the Japanese education system instead of just keeping to "what you know." If I wanted to understand, let's say, the French education system and hear that they used to have Saturday school, should I just react based on my own education and compare just, or should I look it up, read more and see why the system chooses that. If it's similar (which they were since Japan used to have mandatory Saturday school, but now it's either optional or does not exist), then I could draw conclusions that the reasons align with why my education system did it; if they are not similar, then instead of calling out on it being "wrong," I should consider that each system, be it from a third world or another first world country, has their reasons. That reason could be stupid, or it could be completely within reason.
If you didn't attempt to go through that, I find it disappointing because that is one thing education at least taught me: research things on my own, not because others (teachers/professors) asked me to. If you didn't want to take the time because this is online and not a place for educated discussion... oh well, don't have much to say to that.
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@Laplaz4869
You're actually right, I just read the Raws, the numbers are exactly correct.
Since you got the Raws early than us, who is the next sister?
You're actually right, I just read the Raws, the numbers are exactly correct.
Since you got the Raws early than us, who is the next sister?
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@Xx_Itz_Jamez_xX
I don't have the spoilers, but if my theory is correct, the next will be Nino.
I don't have the spoilers, but if my theory is correct, the next will be Nino.
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