Otome Danshi ni Koisuru Otome - Vol. 5 Ch. 510 - Of Course
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Ah, the trifles of the bourgeois genderfag indeed.
I'm personally more of the enlightened school of "Cuteness is justice; gender is irrelevant", especially when it pertains to bloody cartoon characters where their "gender"is often little more than their hair length and clothing,
Regardless, I'm looking forward to some of the interesting drama that a lot of trap stories overlook; Sazanami Cherry also dealt with this, essentially having Ren ask the quæstion: "But what if you only love me because you can trick your brain that I am female? What are you going to do if I grow older and can no longer convincingly sell that idea?" — it's definitely something that a lot of these fluffy stories overlook.
I'm personally more of the enlightened school of "Cuteness is justice; gender is irrelevant", especially when it pertains to bloody cartoon characters where their "gender"is often little more than their hair length and clothing,
Regardless, I'm looking forward to some of the interesting drama that a lot of trap stories overlook; Sazanami Cherry also dealt with this, essentially having Ren ask the quæstion: "But what if you only love me because you can trick your brain that I am female? What are you going to do if I grow older and can no longer convincingly sell that idea?" — it's definitely something that a lot of these fluffy stories overlook.
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@trapsarebetter
I dont think that would be as much of an issue as it may seem. If you need to continuously trick yourself in order to be in a certain relationship, then it isn't a real relationship in the first place. You love the image, not the person. Also, people can sometimes learn to either adapt (get use to it and it becomes normal), overcome (accept it isn't going to work and move on), and/or change (either through surgeries, hormone therapy, or whatever is needed) in these kind of situation if it is really needed. Time is both your friend and enemy here though. Make a decision before its too late, but make the right one too. Sure you may need to test the waters for a while, and you should, but in the end you will know if it will work or not with you.
I dont think that would be as much of an issue as it may seem. If you need to continuously trick yourself in order to be in a certain relationship, then it isn't a real relationship in the first place. You love the image, not the person. Also, people can sometimes learn to either adapt (get use to it and it becomes normal), overcome (accept it isn't going to work and move on), and/or change (either through surgeries, hormone therapy, or whatever is needed) in these kind of situation if it is really needed. Time is both your friend and enemy here though. Make a decision before its too late, but make the right one too. Sure you may need to test the waters for a while, and you should, but in the end you will know if it will work or not with you.
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@trapsarebetter
Those problems are overlooked usually because actual love replaced the initial attraction of 'cute'.
As for when it doesn't... The enlightened school of 'cute is justice gender is irrelevant' speaks for itself.
They stopped being relevant to both the characters, readers and even authors the moment cute gets removed.
Those problems are overlooked usually because actual love replaced the initial attraction of 'cute'.
As for when it doesn't... The enlightened school of 'cute is justice gender is irrelevant' speaks for itself.
They stopped being relevant to both the characters, readers and even authors the moment cute gets removed.
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@JavelinJoe
Well, I've ready many trap love stories where I feel it would be an issue. Consider Prunus Girl where Maki constantly considers it an obstacle that Kizuna is male and becomes as much as disturbed when Kizuna decides to sport the male uniform for a bit of variety.
In this story it is also clearly an obstacle as this panel shows; it's clear that up till this point, Mayu has essentially been suppressing the realization that Yuuki is in fact a male — apparently all it takes is a change of uniform for that disbelief to no longer be willingly suspsendable and it makes Mayu uncomfortable. As I said, I hope the story is going to go into this and touch upon this issue. I feel many that trap romances do indeed rely on that one of them is actively suppressing their realization of the sex of the other.
Well, I've ready many trap love stories where I feel it would be an issue. Consider Prunus Girl where Maki constantly considers it an obstacle that Kizuna is male and becomes as much as disturbed when Kizuna decides to sport the male uniform for a bit of variety.
In this story it is also clearly an obstacle as this panel shows; it's clear that up till this point, Mayu has essentially been suppressing the realization that Yuuki is in fact a male — apparently all it takes is a change of uniform for that disbelief to no longer be willingly suspsendable and it makes Mayu uncomfortable. As I said, I hope the story is going to go into this and touch upon this issue. I feel many that trap romances do indeed rely on that one of them is actively suppressing their realization of the sex of the other.
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@Nep
Is that canon in most trap love stories? As I said, I'm not often seeing it. Till the very in Prunus Girl, Maki continues to find the reality that Kizuna is male to be an obstacle and disturbing and the same thing happened in this story. This panel is hard to take otherwise than that Mayu has all this time suppressed the awareness that Yuuki is male and now that he is aware of that, he finds it quite uncomfortable.
Is that canon in most trap love stories? As I said, I'm not often seeing it. Till the very in Prunus Girl, Maki continues to find the reality that Kizuna is male to be an obstacle and disturbing and the same thing happened in this story. This panel is hard to take otherwise than that Mayu has all this time suppressed the awareness that Yuuki is male and now that he is aware of that, he finds it quite uncomfortable.
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@trapsarebetter
In Prunus, the MC is torn between cuteness and "IM NOT GAY!" He is torn because he doesn't swing that way despite the fact that the Kizuna is almost exactly his type if the man just dropped that thing between his legs. Fact being that Kizuna is cute. Lose some of that cuteness and the whole thing collapses. Its why Maki finds it disturbing. If Ren from Sazami were to ask him that question, the answer would be along the lines of "No, don't grow old. I will get traumatized."
It is just like what Joe said. If you need to trick yourself to be in a relationship, its not a real one. Just like Maki. Technically not a real one. I dropped Prunus before it ended so I am not sure what comes after.
LGBT love stories are usually exactly that. Two characters of the same gender loving each other because of each other and not anything else. They don't get mentioned precisely because of that.
As for Mayu, the girl is traumatized. She is obviously upset BECAUSE she is afraid of men. While it does point out the problems of trap stories that you mentioned regarding the looks of the character, it is a different thing entirely since this has been her character trait from the start. Despite 'conquering' her trauma in the past few chapters, she is not completely over it. Yuuki in drags had been borderline safe but once he started dressing like a man, the discomfort from the trauma would come back.
In Prunus, the MC is torn between cuteness and "IM NOT GAY!" He is torn because he doesn't swing that way despite the fact that the Kizuna is almost exactly his type if the man just dropped that thing between his legs. Fact being that Kizuna is cute. Lose some of that cuteness and the whole thing collapses. Its why Maki finds it disturbing. If Ren from Sazami were to ask him that question, the answer would be along the lines of "No, don't grow old. I will get traumatized."
It is just like what Joe said. If you need to trick yourself to be in a relationship, its not a real one. Just like Maki. Technically not a real one. I dropped Prunus before it ended so I am not sure what comes after.
LGBT love stories are usually exactly that. Two characters of the same gender loving each other because of each other and not anything else. They don't get mentioned precisely because of that.
As for Mayu, the girl is traumatized. She is obviously upset BECAUSE she is afraid of men. While it does point out the problems of trap stories that you mentioned regarding the looks of the character, it is a different thing entirely since this has been her character trait from the start. Despite 'conquering' her trauma in the past few chapters, she is not completely over it. Yuuki in drags had been borderline safe but once he started dressing like a man, the discomfort from the trauma would come back.
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@Nep @trapsarebetter I fully agree with @Odina21. If Mayu is uncomfortable, it's a good kind of being uncomfortable, which would be more like nervousness for being so close to the man she loves, yet they aren't yet lovers. When it's Yuki, she's not reminded of his gender, but when it's Yuuki, she obviously can't ignore it and she gets those butterflies in her stomach, getting all excited and stuff.
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@trapsarebetter Regarding your Sazanami Cherry example, I'm not sure that is a good comparison due to how much trans-coding is in that manga. Ren often talks about how she feels at ease when perceived as a girl, and how scared she is that she'll have to eventually go through puberty. Ren does refer to herself as a boy a couple times, and at least the first time its played more as a joke, but later in the story the context is one of self loathing, e.g. saying "If you're okay with someone like me even though I'm a boy, I can only think of you as an idiot" in a scene where she's crying and trying to give up dressing as a girl. The implication is that she's thinks she's somehow broken for being born a boy. And the ending is all about Ren accepting her own feelings and living as a girl full time, like her sister. Granted no one explicitly says the word trans, so there is a little ambiguity, but the text heavily suggests it imo.
In contrast, I think Prunus Girl is far more comparable to Otome Danshi, since Kizuna regularly asserts that he's a crossdressing guy in a very confident way, just like Yuuki. But your concerns about whether a usually straight guy can love a cute boy don't hold water there either IMO. No one stays cute forever, independent of gender. Age is inescapable for all human beings. Sure male puberty can make it harder to look cute, but it can be countered; irl crossdressers have been using makup, wigs, etc to counteract puberty for hundreds of years. Also these guys are like 16 - they've likely already gone through a significant amount of puberty. And if the last chapter of Prunus Girl is anything to go on, Kizuna will still look pretty as an adult, even if he's a bit taller.
My point here is that if someone falls in love with a cute boy, then as long as they love him as a cute boy and not a cute girl, they'll probably be able to continue to love him as he gets older, even if neither partner is as attractive as when they were younger.
In contrast, I think Prunus Girl is far more comparable to Otome Danshi, since Kizuna regularly asserts that he's a crossdressing guy in a very confident way, just like Yuuki. But your concerns about whether a usually straight guy can love a cute boy don't hold water there either IMO. No one stays cute forever, independent of gender. Age is inescapable for all human beings. Sure male puberty can make it harder to look cute, but it can be countered; irl crossdressers have been using makup, wigs, etc to counteract puberty for hundreds of years. Also these guys are like 16 - they've likely already gone through a significant amount of puberty. And if the last chapter of Prunus Girl is anything to go on, Kizuna will still look pretty as an adult, even if he's a bit taller.
My point here is that if someone falls in love with a cute boy, then as long as they love him as a cute boy and not a cute girl, they'll probably be able to continue to love him as he gets older, even if neither partner is as attractive as when they were younger.
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@Nep
Maybe it isn't real, my objection with Prunus Girl is that it addresses this not in any way whatsoever that it is "isn't real"; it waltzes over the possibility that one day Kizuna might actually start to look like a male, and what is Maki going to do then?
@mirewitch
I'm well aware of the gender identity undertones of Sazanami Cherry, which I did not like, I simply liked that it was one of the few that did not simply discard the reality that a lot of traps aren't forever and can only do it during their teenage years. I don't see why the gender identity undertones mean not that it can't be used as illustration and cited as a good example of something that does pay due diligence to this reality though.
>My point here is that if someone falls in love with a cute boy, then as long as they love him as a cute boy and not a cute girl, they'll probably be able to continue to love him as he gets older, even if neither partner is as attractive as when they were younger.
That too is my point; but the issue with Prunus Girl is clearly that Maki did not fall in love with Kizuna "as a cute boy" and the story heavily implies that Maki severely objects on some level to Kizuna being a "boy" and the love only works because he's suspending that realization. The final epilogue with Maki being extremely fearful of having sex with Kizuna might be construed as that as well because obviously it becomes harder to suspend that realization when Kizuna's 23 cms {I have my sources} are up one's colon..
Maybe it isn't real, my objection with Prunus Girl is that it addresses this not in any way whatsoever that it is "isn't real"; it waltzes over the possibility that one day Kizuna might actually start to look like a male, and what is Maki going to do then?
@mirewitch
I'm well aware of the gender identity undertones of Sazanami Cherry, which I did not like, I simply liked that it was one of the few that did not simply discard the reality that a lot of traps aren't forever and can only do it during their teenage years. I don't see why the gender identity undertones mean not that it can't be used as illustration and cited as a good example of something that does pay due diligence to this reality though.
>My point here is that if someone falls in love with a cute boy, then as long as they love him as a cute boy and not a cute girl, they'll probably be able to continue to love him as he gets older, even if neither partner is as attractive as when they were younger.
That too is my point; but the issue with Prunus Girl is clearly that Maki did not fall in love with Kizuna "as a cute boy" and the story heavily implies that Maki severely objects on some level to Kizuna being a "boy" and the love only works because he's suspending that realization. The final epilogue with Maki being extremely fearful of having sex with Kizuna might be construed as that as well because obviously it becomes harder to suspend that realization when Kizuna's 23 cms {I have my sources} are up one's colon..
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@trapsarebetter Regarding Sazanami Cherry, I agree that crossdressing gets harder as an adult, and that crossdressing manga sometimes glosses over the challenges that can cause, but I disagree that it becomes impossible for a majority of people after puberty. Makeup, good fashion choices, wigs, etc. can do amazing things, even if you're not using transgender stuff like hormones. One simply needs to type in "cute adult crossdresser" into google images to get thousands of images showing how adults can crossdress effectively. Of course "cuteness" is subjective, but I don't see any reason why someone can only successfully crossdress "in their teenage years." Sazanami Cherry even has an example of one such person in the form of the sister character.
Regarding Prunus Girl - We should probably be putting spoilers around our discussions since we're getting pretty deep into spoilers in a discussion thread about Otome Danshi.
Regarding Prunus Girl - We should probably be putting spoilers around our discussions since we're getting pretty deep into spoilers in a discussion thread about Otome Danshi.
In the last chapter, Kizuna directly asks Maki if he thinks it would be better if Kizuna was a girl. Maki responds "Nah, I don't think so," suggesting that he prefers Kizuna as a crossdressing boy, not as a girl. In the epilogue, Kizuna thinks that Maki's nervousness is related to concerns that the school authorities won't let them live together, and Maki agrees, saying "you can read me like a book." I guess you could say he's lying to make Kizuna happy, but his "protests" are mostly in the form "Think about my sanity and how I have to hold back here." That doesn't come across as being fearful of sex, it comes across as him being a person who wants to have sex, but is holding back so the school won't cause problems with his relationship. And in one of the last lines he even says that he doubts he'll have the self discipline to do that. I think the ending makes it clear that Maki is attracted to Kizuna as a cute crossdressing boy, not as a girl.
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@mirewitch
Certainly a lot can, but a lot can also not. I'm a 31 year old that can still easily cross-dress myself, but there are also those that could during puberty and no longer can.
>but I don't see any reason why someone can only successfully cross-dress "in their teenage years."
Obviously because typically around the age of 20-23 the final stages of puberty happen and sexual changes of the facial structure finalize? Teenagers simply are usually more androgynous than adults; one's face changes during puberty. Obviously every human is different and how much that happens differs from person to person; I happen to have a fairly androgynous looking face even at my age; many, if not most, at my age have very gendered bone structures, which makes it difficult for them to put on some makeup and clothes and pass as the opposite sex. With some this is already the case when they are 15. Certainly you would agree that no amount of wig or makeup would make Gigachad pass as female with such a sexually dimorphic facial structure? It's also why early transitioners with hormone therapy are generally more effective.
Certainly a lot can, but a lot can also not. I'm a 31 year old that can still easily cross-dress myself, but there are also those that could during puberty and no longer can.
>but I don't see any reason why someone can only successfully cross-dress "in their teenage years."
Obviously because typically around the age of 20-23 the final stages of puberty happen and sexual changes of the facial structure finalize? Teenagers simply are usually more androgynous than adults; one's face changes during puberty. Obviously every human is different and how much that happens differs from person to person; I happen to have a fairly androgynous looking face even at my age; many, if not most, at my age have very gendered bone structures, which makes it difficult for them to put on some makeup and clothes and pass as the opposite sex. With some this is already the case when they are 15. Certainly you would agree that no amount of wig or makeup would make Gigachad pass as female with such a sexually dimorphic facial structure? It's also why early transitioners with hormone therapy are generally more effective.
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@trapsarebetter Fair enough, and I do agree that crossdressing manga does often breeze over the challenges puberty can cause. But I also see people, both trans and crossdressers, who say things like "oh I could never look like a girl no matter how much I try," when they definitely could, even if it would take a bit more effort than people who are more androgynous. And regarding crossdressing in particular I'm not sure passing as female should even be the goal, or how we evaluate "good crossdressing." As an random example from google images, https://images.app.goo.gl/D86XyhwrUCYG1QMj8. He doesn't look at all like a girl, but I still think he looks cool in that dress. This is why I find the term "trap" silly; it assumes the only way to be a good crossdresser is to pass as female, when a lot of the appeal in crossdressing is rebelling against gender norms.
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@mirewitch
>And regarding crossdressing in particular I'm not sure passing as female should even be the goal, or how we evaluate "good crossdressing." As an random example from google images, https://images.app.goo.gl/D86XyhwrUCYG1QMj8. He doesn't look at all like a girl, but I still think he looks cool in that dress. This is why I find the term "trap" silly; it assumes the only way to be a good crossdresser is to pass as female, when a lot of the appeal in crossdressing is rebelling against gender norms.
I definitely disagree not here; in the main comment thread about this series, I voiced the objection that there is not much "freedom" left in the "Café Freedom" if the objective is for males to "pass as female" — which I felt further spreads the idea that one can only wear such costumes look one convincingly female.
I'm merely pointing out that in a lot of trap love stories; the narrative definitely implies that the attraction is based upon fooling one's mind if you will, and then purposefully avoids the quæstion of what would happen were such a thing no longer possible in the future.
This is one of the things I liked about the Kaname series, which is one of the cases of cross-dressing where we have a "pseudotrap" if you will; he just barely does not pass as female, nevertheless the clothes suit him still, and clearly his fairly large harem cares not about that.
>And regarding crossdressing in particular I'm not sure passing as female should even be the goal, or how we evaluate "good crossdressing." As an random example from google images, https://images.app.goo.gl/D86XyhwrUCYG1QMj8. He doesn't look at all like a girl, but I still think he looks cool in that dress. This is why I find the term "trap" silly; it assumes the only way to be a good crossdresser is to pass as female, when a lot of the appeal in crossdressing is rebelling against gender norms.
I definitely disagree not here; in the main comment thread about this series, I voiced the objection that there is not much "freedom" left in the "Café Freedom" if the objective is for males to "pass as female" — which I felt further spreads the idea that one can only wear such costumes look one convincingly female.
I'm merely pointing out that in a lot of trap love stories; the narrative definitely implies that the attraction is based upon fooling one's mind if you will, and then purposefully avoids the quæstion of what would happen were such a thing no longer possible in the future.
This is one of the things I liked about the Kaname series, which is one of the cases of cross-dressing where we have a "pseudotrap" if you will; he just barely does not pass as female, nevertheless the clothes suit him still, and clearly his fairly large harem cares not about that.
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