The Day I Decided to Make My Cheeky Gyaru Sister Understand in My Own Way - Ch. 4 - The Day My Gal Sister Stepped Out

[Eighty-six]

You feel bad for him because they're talking shit about him while they take the object of his affections with her eager consent.

We don't know if he likes her by the point of the orgy, and we only learn that he wants to be a family with her after it.

We know that, if only at this point, the guy having sex with her is talking in the heat of the moment (à la "who wouldn't want to have sex with you?") because of that discrepancy. Even without that, the guy is speaking to something he doesn't know with certainty, while phrasing it without certainty. "I bet you'd X" is not a structure for a statement meant to be factual.

Because the difference between "Cheating" and "Netorare" is that in "Cheating" the cuck is more an idea than a character.

The flowchart you referenced has a categorization of "netorare + cheating". You're proposing that while netorare has a concrete character being cheated on, cheating has an abstract concept of an infidelity victim. The same wiki doesn't make such a distinction in its "cheating" entry.

You're seemingly proposing something that makes "netorare" and "cheating" mutually exclusive, whereas the flowchart doesn't do so.

You: "That's not NTR"
Me: "We agree it is"
You: "That's not the definition"
Me: "When lots of people use a word the same way, that's a definition."

But you're also claiming that there's a controversy about what the definition is... as part of an argument that it's what you say it is.

"Lots of people" disagree with you, thus the multiple written definitions-- including the flowchart from the wiki of the hentai site you alluded to-- giving a definition incompatible with yours. More particularly, I disagree with you while hating NTR, and the mangaka independently disagrees with you while liking NTR.

How many "lots of people" need to use the word the same way before the usage graduates from "terminology misuse"? How much change needs to happen before that graduation?

Since you like TVTropes

In fact, I severely hate TvTropes and what it's seemingly done to a generation of writers and critics. I cited it for the sake of getting one out of many concurrent definitions to prove my point.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

We don't know if he likes her by the point of the orgy, and we only learn that he wants to be a family with her after it.

Clearly established. End of discussion. You'll have an easier time convincing me we need the bull to know the woman's taken. I can at least see that, since it's hard to "steal" someone if you don't know they're locked down.

The flowchart you referenced has a categorization of "netorare + cheating". You're proposing that while netorare has a concrete character being cheated on, cheating has an abstract concept of an infidelity victim. The same wiki doesn't make such a distinction in its "cheating" entry.

You're seemingly proposing something that makes "netorare" and "cheating" mutually exclusive, whereas the flowchart doesn't do so.

Yeah, the flowchart also insists that if the relationship isn't reciprocal, it's NTR. So either you have trouble following simple flow charts, or you don't care, and you're trying to use it against me in bad faith.

Which is it?

In the end, the flowchart is a tool to help you pinpoint where everything falls, with cheating stories often placing little to no emphasis on the cuck despite its literal existence.

But you're also claiming that there's a controversy about what the definition is... as part of an argument that it's what you say it is.

Yeah. Controversies don't exist when almost nobody disagrees.

How many "lots of people" need to use the word the same way before the usage graduates from "terminology misuse"? How much change needs to happen before that graduation?

No clue, but I reckon if it's enough of a deal for it to blow up in controversy everywhere it appears, then we should probably move away from "BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT IT MEAAANS" as a rebuttal. Case in point: Look at this thread

 

[Eighty-six]

Clearly established.

Are you saying that what I described counts as "clearly established", or are you disagreeing with my characterization?

Yeah, the flowchart also insists that if the relationship isn't reciprocal, it's NTR.

Check the corner notes.

Does NOT apply if any of the of the following is true:

• Lack of any romantic relationship between or interest from A to B. It is merely a sexual interest/relationship.

This is even more strict than the VNDB definition, since that one is liberal with what the relationship needs to be. I'm granting that the affection of the male lead will likely become or otherwise be revealed as romantic in the future... but the extent of his own words and body language thus far has been that he wants to treat her as family.

There's no good in weighing the words of a faceless mook more heavily than those from the man himself.

Yeah. Controversies don't exist when almost nobody disagrees.

...yes. I don't understand, then, why you're citing the supposed controversy in part of your argument that your definition of netorare is correct. A lack of general agreement doesn't pave the way for the rightness of your position.

No clue, but I reckon if it's enough of a deal for it to blow up in controversy everywhere it appears...

It isn't-- certainly not in my experience. This is the first time in 15 years I've seen a blow-up over the very definition of netorare. Normally, when it's brought up, the IQ of everyone in the vicinity is quartered and they go feral-- but it's always been over what's unambiguously the same pattern.

I also don't agree with this metric because I've seen it used to defend unworkable definitions, such as the ideas of the demographic categories as "genres". It's obvious that such types had a misconception to begin with (they thought these "genres" were borne by the manga themselves), they were corrected, and they chose to cling to their misconception and defend it in every which way because of personal investment. There's arguments almost every time the topic of the misunderstanding comes up, but what of it? They're wrong, and generally disagreed with. Their definitions are based solely on personal perception instead of an isolation of generally identifiable patterns.

I can't look up your emotional spectrum in a dictionary, when I'm trying to become marginally less ignorant.

It's one thing if the language shift is already over by our time. It clearly isn't-- it hasn't even started to move out of the "terminology misuse" stage, given the definitions that are able to be pulled up (and, despite your disagreement, the flowchart from the wiki of the hentai catalogue you cited).

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Are you saying that what

I'm saying that if you want to pretend that the story hasn't established interest on the third page, you're wrong, and we're not having this talk anymore.

Check the corner notes.

I did.

This is even more strict than the VNDB definition

And it's been met.

This is the first time in 15 years I've seen a blow-up over the very definition of netorare.

Yeah, the author basically baited everyone into paying for surprise NTR, and reading an NTR story, after attracting a hoard of incest lovers.

I also don't agree with this metric because I've seen it used to defend unworkable definitions, such as the ideas of the demographic categories as "genres". It's obvious that such types had a misconception to begin with (they thought these "genres" were borne by the manga themselves), they were corrected, and they chose to cling to their misconception and defend it in every which way because of personal investment. There's arguments almost every time the topic of the misunderstanding comes up, but what of it? They're wrong, and generally disagreed with. Their definitions are based solely on personal perception instead of an isolation of generally identifiable patterns.

I can't look up your emotional spectrum in a dictionary, when I'm trying to become marginally less ignorant.

I've been meaning to ask, but what's your first language?

 

[Eighty-six]

I'm saying that if you want to pretend that the story hasn't established interest on the third page, you're wrong, and we're not having this talk anymore.

The story had the male lead establish what his priorities are, from his own mouth, in the third chapter. Those are subject to change, but are worth more than the words of a sex mook.

Also, even if I accept what you see as metanarrative along with your general premise, then-- given the present chapters-- I'm obliged to view this story as shaping up to be a reversal of netorare.

I've been meaning to ask, but what's your first language?

When I was confused by what was frankly a garbled and muddy paragraph from you, I asked you to clarify yourself instead of implicitly insulting you.

I'd have liked if you extended the same courtesy, because I don't like getting in completely antagonistic arguments with you.

If you're irritated by my persistent disagreement and arguments, don't think that I wasn't irritated with yours.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Also, even if I accept what you see as metanarrative along with your general premise, then-- given the present chapters-- I'm obliged to view this story as shaping up to be a reversal of netorare.

Which leaves this chapter, and 4, as NTR, and the rest of the story as an undeserved redemption arc. Which is the problem.

When I was confused by what was frankly a garbled and muddy paragraph from you, I asked you to clarify yourself instead of implicitly insulting you.

I'd have liked if you extended the same courtesy, because I don't like getting in completely antagonistic arguments with you.

You didn't answer the question. What's your first language?

 

[Eighty-six]

Which leaves this chapter, and 4, as NTR, and the rest of the story as an undeserved redemption arc.

I was only concerned about whether this constituted netorare.

...but now, I'm confused as to how this is a "redemption arc" and what she's supposed to be "redeemed" from.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

...but now, I'm confused as to how this is a "redemption arc" and what she's supposed to be "redeemed" from.

You and me both. You can't "Correct" the willing.

What's your first language? Are you not comfortable sharing?

 

[TestAddress]

We don't know if he likes her by the point of the orgy, and we only learn that he wants to be a family with her after it.

We know that, if only at this point, the guy having sex with her is talking in the heat of the moment (à la "who wouldn't want to have sex with you?") because of that discrepancy. Even without that, the guy is speaking to something he doesn't know with certainty, while phrasing it without certainty. "I bet you'd X" is not a structure for a statement meant to be factual.


The flowchart you referenced has a categorization of "netorare + cheating". You're proposing that while netorare has a concrete character being cheated on, cheating has an abstract concept of an infidelity victim. The same wiki doesn't make such a distinction in its "cheating" entry.

You're seemingly proposing something that makes "netorare" and "cheating" mutually exclusive, whereas the flowchart doesn't do so.


But you're also claiming that there's a controversy about what the definition is... as part of an argument that it's what you say it is.

"Lots of people" disagree with you, thus the multiple written definitions-- including the flowchart from the wiki of the hentai site you alluded to-- giving a definition incompatible with yours. More particularly, I disagree with you while hating NTR, and the mangaka independently disagrees with you while liking NTR.

How many "lots of people" need to use the word the same way before the usage graduates from "terminology misuse"? How much change needs to happen before that graduation?


In fact, I severely hate TvTropes and what it's seemingly done to a generation of writers and critics. I cited it for the sake of getting one out of many concurrent definitions to prove my point.

Didn't know you need a majority vote just to perceive. Many people are crazy nowadays.

Laws of nature are Laws even if a human perceives it or not. Cucking is cucking whether 0 people agree to it.

 

[Eighty-six]

You and me both. You can't "Correct" the willing.

More like, she hasn't wronged anyone (outside of herself) or lived a life of such wrongdoing, that a "redemption arc" would be applicable to her.

Her actions are, as it stands, partly the result of her not viewing herself as part of the family she was adopted into. She was being an ass, nonetheless, but that doesn't strike me as "redemption arc"-worthy. Her brother is disabusing her of that notion. That should be the end of it, or am I missing something?

Laws of nature are Laws even if a human perceives it or not. Cucking is cucking whether 0 people agrees to it.

And conversely, something isn't cuckoldry just because you can assemble even a couple hundred people to say that it is.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

More like, she hasn't wronged anyone (outside of herself) or lived a life of such wrongdoing, that a "redemption arc" would be applicable to her.

Her actions are, as it stands, partly the result of her not viewing herself as part of the family she was adopted into. She was being an ass, nonetheless, but that doesn't strike me as "redemption arc"-worthy. Her brother is disabusing her of that notion. That should be the end of it, or am I missing something?

The story is about "correcting" her. But there's nothing to "correct", because she's an enthusiastic slut. Unless she's redeemed, that's all she'll be in the audience's eyes, and nobody will actually root for her. It's kind of like trying to make an arc about Krombopulous Michael stepping away from the assassin business, and make us believe him to be a good person who's just misunderstood... in less than a week.

So I'm going to start guessing: Swedish, or maybe German.

 

[Eighty-six]

The story is about "correcting" her. But there's nothing to "correct", because she's an enthusiastic slut.

I'm going to assume you know what "correction" initially referred to and why.

The authorial turnabout by chapter 2, along with the revelation in chapter 3, demonstrates that the "correction" is now about disabusing her of the notion that she has no place in the family she's been adopted into.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

I'm going to assume you know what "correction" initially referred to and why.

The authorial turnabout by chapter 2, along with the revelation in chapter 3, demonstrates that the "correction" is now about disabusing her of the notion that she has no place in the family she's been adopted into.

Might have been a great message if we weren't trying to "fix" a slut. Because, remember in chapter 4, the story is also about her not being "abused" anymore.

Danish. It's gotta be Danish, then.

 

[Eighty-six]

Might have been a great message if we weren't trying to "fix" a slut. Because, remember in chapter 4, the story is also about her not being "abused" anymore.

The stepbrother doesn't know anything about her being the group bicycle-- just that she's abrasive, and (later) that she doesn't think she belongs in the family.

Currently, him disabusing her of that notion (i.e. "making her understand" by giving her water for her hangover and feeding her the morning after) has the indirect effect of disinclining her to being a whore.

 

[DaBoySwag77]

The stepbrother doesn't know anything about her being the group bicycle-- just that she's abrasive, and (later) that she doesn't think she belongs in the family.

Currently, him disabusing her of that notion (i.e. "making her understand" by giving her water for her hangover and feeding her the morning after) has the indirect effect of disinclining her to being a whore.

He dosent know and he will never know as this is not the focus of this "story". If it will, it will only bring more negative drama and shade to this "romance" story as it already did and she REALLY tried everything not to show what really happend offscreen as it will obviosusly piss peple off unless you are into this cuckhold fetish. She is exhausted because she got backlash of it and now wants to draw something different, but she will come back and as ch.4 indirectly said it -> there wont be anything more of this shit and it will focus on the more bro x sis stuff now, but it dosent make anything better nor does it fix what happend in the lasts chapters.

Keep in mind this was/is still trying somehow to be a lewd "romance" of bother and sister but because it was against Pixivs TOS -> her words and she showed me the conversation between her and the staff, its stepsister now. No one can explain why the shift from the typical "annyoying tsundere gal sister who needs MC dick to calm down" to "I feel so lonely and odd in this family as im not blood related and to fix this empty feeling DESPITE I have MC taking care of my 24/7 -> I go out of my way and fuck random guys + enjoy it to a point you would think this is a hentai."

Problem: It wants to be a romance manga lol. Sure, there is for everyone there and if people want to read something like this they should. But as you saw people didnt liked it because of what happend and since there is no real definition of "that", people will use the next best thing which perfectly suits it -> which is Netorare, aka NTR.

As yourself: Why would people who hate NTR call "that" as NTR and people who enjoy NTR would like "this" in this story ?
Im all for new definitions if people dont want to call this NTR, but then they should come up with the right definition then first.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

The stepbrother doesn't know anything about her being the group bicycle-- just that she's abrasive, and (later) that she doesn't think she belongs in the family.

Currently, him disabusing her of that notion (i.e. "making her understand" by giving her water for her hangover and feeding her the morning after) has the indirect effect of disinclining her to being a whore.

Italian. I bet it's Italian.

As yourself: Why would people who hate NTR call "that" as NTR and people who enjoy NTR would like "this" in this story ?
Im all for new definitions if people dont want to call this NTR, but then they should come up with the right definition then first.

And what's your first language?

 

[InfernoIce7630]

If anyone want the newest fanbox when the sister dreams, just dm me and I'll share it with you.

 

[DaBoySwag77]

If anyone want the newest fanbox when the sister dreams, just dm me and I'll share it with you.

Dude you paying for it or how do you get it lol ? I think I saw that already or been already explained what happend here but im more curious what happen in the "christmas" post of hers.

 

[Speederzdk]

When you start out your story by trying make it seem like it’s going to be a romance between a brother fixing his sister, only to then have said sister engage in an orgy, effectively ruining said romance before it can truly happen, you shouldn’t be surprised people call it the closest thing to what it is.

The only reason it isn’t true NTR is because there isn’t an established relationship - problem here is that the author tried to already spin it as romance, which gives the readers a certain expectation of brooding love between them. Breaking that immediately will absolutely give a lot of people NTR-esque feelings about the situation as it’s effectively a love stolen. Because even if the love hasn’t sprouted, the expectation is still there.

Sure, it’s not textbook definition of NTR, but it’s NTR-adjacent and that’s enough for most people.

Now if you made this a story about a wholesome brother helping fix his sister without all the implied future romance, then I bet you’d have almost no backlash.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

The only reason it isn’t true NTR is because there isn’t an established relationship

It's NTR on nhen. There's a specific tag for "Cheating" that gets applied on top if there's a relationship, and the sex is consensual. Can we agree that's a compelling reason to call it NTR on its own?

Now if you made this a story about a wholesome brother helping fix his sister without all the implied future romance, then I bet you’d have almost no backlash.

I don't know, man... she's still trying to pain the enthusiastic slut as some kind of victim, when everything is happening because of her own choices. The only path forward would have been bro catching her her as she was beginning to fall into this lifestyle, or maybe if she had been raped. NTR aside, it really sounds like trying to "save" someone from their love of chocolate.