Kuse Tsuyo Kanojo wa Toko ni Izanau - Ch. 12.5

[MangaDex]

 

[ciera]

Thanks for the extra

 

[Erricane]

I heard people who can tie knots with their tongues are really good kissers.

 

[MiguelH224]

Ok, but why couldn't he just tell her that?

 

[LTalon]

Ok, but why couldn't he just tell her that?

Maybe he thinks it's hot, but also kinda dumb.

 

[Shadow_Reaper]

She's so silly lmao.

 

[hythae]

im more concerned about the uniform of that girl on the phone
idk about irl but in manga thats typically a uniform for middle schoolers

and said girl demonstrated her tongue skills on tiktok....

give me more reasons to never let my younger relatives touch social media

 

[MidnightTide]

When this dude finally gets to release it is going to be a flood.

 

[shinya78]

Ahh yes, the old tradition of tying the stem into a knot with the tongue = good kisser, now on ticktalk. Still got nothing on Kakyouin's contact juggling the actual cherry with his tongue tho.

Spoiler: Chapter 13.2

Short spoiler: Still no truth, this is a Kawashina chapter, new named character
Long spoiler: We start with Naoto, worried that despite Hiba being around, there are guys that are trying to pick up Luna. Kawashina mentions Luna being cute, and how lots of people were staring at Luna. She then mentions how she used to be mistaken for a boy as a child, how she's still plain-looking, and how she's slightly jealous of Luna's looks. Naoto was about to tell her how wrong she thought she was, but he stopped himself mid-way. Kawashina demands Naoto to tell her anyway and Naoto obliges, telling her about the comments of the the guys they passed through.

Kawashina then asks Naoto about his opinion while taking off her jacket, showing off her bikini. Naoto gets flustered as Kawashina starts moving closer, she asks if this excites him but he denies it. She then mounts him while slowly shifting his shirt up exposing his chest as they continue the back and forth. Kawashina now lays on top of him, with her head on top of his chest, and her chest pressed down on his crotch. Kawashina seemingly comes in for a kiss, but Mother Nature says 'No' and sends a wave to stop the two. Now wet, Naoto says he'll get a towel, and the two head back to the tent.

On their way back, with his chest still pounding, Naoto wonders if Kawashina was being serious back then. He then spots a gyaruo-looking guy trying to make a move on Luna, spurring Naoto to act quickly, Kawashina takes notice. But before Naoto gets there the guy says Luna's name, with Luna answering back how it's been a long time since they've last met, recognizing the guy as someone named 'Ryuuji'.

Chapter ends as Ryuuji then goes full gyaru-o on about them meeting at the beach is a fated reunion.

Not sure if this is where I say I frickin' called it, but the way it looks, I might just called it.

 

[Iamcheater]

Ahh yes, the old tradition of tying the stem with the tongue = good kisser, now on ticktalk. Still got nothing on Kakyouin's contact juggling the actual cherry with his tongue tho.

Spoiler: Chapter 13.2

Short spoiler: Still no truth, this is a Kawashina chapter, new named character
Long spoiler: We start with Naoto, worried that despite Hiba being around, there are guys that are trying to pick up Luna. Kawashina mentions Luna being cute, and how lots of people were staring at Luna. She then mentions how she used to be mistaken for a boy as a child, how she's still plain-looking, and how she's slightly jealous of Luna's looks. Naoto was about to tell her how wrong she thought she was, but he stopped himself mid-way. Kawashina demands Naoto to tell her anyway and Naoto obliges, telling her about the comments of the the guys they passed through.

Kawashina then asks Naoto about his opinion while taking of her jacket, showing off her bikini. Naoto gets flustered as Kawashina starts moving closer, she asks if this excites him but he denies it. She then mounts him while slowly shifting his shirt up exposing his chest as they continue the back and forth. Kawashina now lays on top of him, with her head on top of his chest, and her chest pressed down on his crotch. Kawashina seemingly comes in for a kiss, but Mother Nature says 'No' and sends a wave to stop the two. Now wet, Naoto says he'll get a towel, and the two head back to the tent.

On their way back, with his chest still pounding, Naoto wonders if Kawashina was being serious back then. He then spots a gyaruo-looking guy trying to make a move on Luna, spurring Naoto to act quickly, Kawashina takes notice. But before Naoto gets there the guy says Luna's name, with Luna answering back how it's been a long time since they've last met, recognizing the guy as someone named 'Ryuuji'.

Chapter ends as Ryuuji then goes full gyaru-o on about them meeting at the beach is a fated reunion.

Not sure if this is where I say I frickin' called it, but the way it looks, I might just called it.

So wait, that's Kawasina's brother???

My bet is that he's an ex sexfriend/boyfriend. I am finally close to dropping this depending on the next chapter.

I still don't understand the tags on this manga:

https://imgur.com/a/e8SVRTw

How are still trying to convince ourselves she's a "devoted girl". Like you can't fucking use that tag and do EVERYTHING in your power to make it look dodgy.

 

[shinya78]

So wait, that's Kawasina's brother???

It's not confirmed yet so that's a maybe, but considering the hints, that's a big fat MAYBE.

I still don't understand the tags on this manga:

https://imgur.com/a/e8SVRTw

How are still trying to convince ourselves she's a "devoted girl". Like you can't fucking use that tag and do EVERYTHING in your power to make it look dodgy.

As it stands, she IS currently devoted to Naoto as his 'Big Sis Luna', it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with her other relationships, current or otherwise. But yeah, the author's whole point of the manga is 'make it look dodgy'.

 

[Iamcheater]

It's not confirmed yet so that's a maybe, but considering the hints, that's a big fat MAYBE.

As it stands, she IS currently devoted to Naoto as his 'Big Sis Luna', it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with her other relationships, current or otherwise. But yeah, the author's whole point of the manga is 'make it look dodgy'.

I don't think that the devoted girl on the website is used in the context you are assuming here. The tag is usually present in manga that the girl is devoted to the MC romantically from start to finish. From chapter 1 she was technically unfit for this tag yet it's somehow slapped on the Japanese manga publisher website.

 

[shinya78]

I don't think that the devoted girl on the website is used in the context you are assuming here. The tag is usually present in manga that the girl is devoted to the MC romantically from start to finish. From chapter 1 she was technically unfit for this tag yet it's somehow slapped on the Japanese manga publisher website.

If Naoto getting spoiled above and beyond to the point of being the top priority of who should only be an older cousin is not being devoted, then perhaps the word you're thinking about and looking for is loyal.

That said, devotion and fidelity is not mutually exclusive. One can be devoted to a single subject, or multiple subjects at the same time.

 

[Iamcheater]

If Naoto getting spoiled above and beyond to the point of being the top priority of who should only be an older cousin is not being devoted, then perhaps the word you're thinking about and looking for is loyal.

That said, devotion and fidelity is not mutually exclusive. One can be devoted to a single subject, or multiple subjects at the same time.

This is ultimately a romance manga and despite using "cousin" or "née-San" to brand each other as family, this is going down the romance path, I feel it's unnecessary to even mention this.

Devotion and fidelity or loyalty if you like SHOULD, in fact, be mutually exclusive if it is in regard to romance. A servant being devoted to their master, an employee being devoted to their company, those are examples where your argument makes sense; they can be devoted into their respective people of interest but also have a separate life where they do whatever they please. But if a girl is "devoted" to a guy in the premise of romance, then loyalty is automatically expected. Do you mean to say that she's fits the criteria to be called devoted because she's willing to fuck him or generally care for him first and over anyone else but if he was busy at school and somebody, like this last dude at the beach, wanted to fuck, it's okay that she goes ahead and fucks him because it's not interfering with her "devotion" to please Naoto? (since Naoto is busy with something else in this scenario)

I am sorry but this doesn't make sense. Devotion and loyalty are meant to be mutually exclusive in romance. If not then it's not romance, it's just a service relationship.

 

[shinya78]

This is ultimately a romance manga and despite using "cousin" or "née-San" to brand each other as family, this is going down the romance path, I feel it's unnecessary to even mention this.

While Luna's currently at the tipping point, she's fully devoted to Naoto as his 'big sis' since chapter 1, and that's enough to justify the tag being there since the start.

Devotion and fidelity or loyalty if you like SHOULD, in fact, be mutually exclusive if it is in regard to romance. ...But if a girl is "devoted" to a guy in the premise of romance, then loyalty is automatically expected.

You do realize being mutually exclusive just means you can have one, or the other, but not both at the same time, right?

You got the hierarchy the other way around, devotion is automatically expected UNDER loyalty, especially in regard to romance. It all depends on the level of devotion one has towards others. If one shows a disproportionately higher level of devotion towards a single person in comparison to what they show towards the rest, then one can argue that person could be loyal to that other person, key word being "could".

Do you mean to say that she's fits the criteria to be called devoted because she's willing to fuck him or generally care for him first and over anyone else but if he was busy at school and somebody, like this last dude at the beach, wanted to fuck, it's okay that she goes ahead and fucks him because it's not interfering with her "devotion" to please Naoto? (since Naoto is busy with something else in this scenario)

There are clear boundaries to determine the level of devotion one has for another person, and it's the things they are willing to do for them. You're already running under the assumption that she's 100% riding every guy under the sun with the receipts upfront and centre, as if that's her default level of devotion for everyone, so maybe that's tripping you over with your definition of "devotion".

I am sorry but this doesn't make sense. Devotion and loyalty are meant to be mutually exclusive in romance. If not then it's not romance, it's just a service relationship.

As far as the tags are concerned, the sheer amount of unprovoked spoiling the MC's getting from the girls are more than enough to warrant that tag. It is specifically this type that falls under their definition of 尽くす系女子, or 'Devoted girl', the actual romance can show up later.

 

[Iamcheater]

While Luna's currently at the tipping point, she's fully devoted to Naoto as his 'big sis' since chapter 1, and that's enough to justify the tag being there since the start.


You do realize being mutually exclusive just means you can have one, or the other, but not both at the same time, right?

You got the hierarchy the other way around, devotion is automatically expected UNDER loyalty, especially in regard to romance. It all depends on the level of devotion one has towards others. If one shows a disproportionately higher level of devotion towards a single person in comparison to what they show towards the rest, then one can argue that person could be loyal to that other person, key word being "could".


There are clear boundaries to determine the level of devotion one has for another person, and it's the things they are willing to do for them. You're already running under the assumption that she's 100% riding every guy under the sun with the receipts upfront and centre, as if that's her default level of devotion for everyone, so maybe that's tripping you over with your definition of "devotion".


As far as the tags are concerned, the sheer amount of unprovoked spoiling the MC's getting from the girls are more than enough to warrant that tag. It is specifically this type that falls under their definition of 尽くす系女子, or 'Devoted girl', the actual romance can show up later.

No, I 100% cannot fathom how you think that when it comes to romance her "spoiling him as a big sister" means she's a devoted girl. A devoted sister perhaps, if we were to accept that she value her family more than anything. But last time I checked this is not a family manga, there is no assumption that she doesn't love him romantically and that she wants to be his sister. Her spoiling is nothing sort of "sister's spoiling". This is also preface and in fact pretext to what is going to follow.

What do you even mean I "got the hierarchy wrong"? If you are in love with somebody then you devote yourself to making them happy. That's just common sense not a nuanced prerequisite. There are different types of love of course but if she's devoted to him, wouldn't his happiness take precedence over everything else? So if she's really a "devoted girl" then all of this nonesense should have been cleared out by now. Or at least the tag should have been different or added later.

I will give you that the author can still pull the "impossible is normal in manga" card and just make all of the accusations of her being a slut, false and give "explanations" going all the way back to his childhood even. But that's just cheap writing.

And if the author actually commits to the chain of evidence he's set up so far and confirm she's a slut then tell me this: How does a slutty girl show devotion to someone she loves romantically? If she has been truly fucking guys so far, is Naoto going to be happy to hear it? Just because she is "spoiling him as a sister would" would that negate everything else?

I wasn't trying to argue that the word devotion doesn't have different levels and that it can't be perceived differently, depending on the scenarios. I apologize if my wording implied that. But strictly looking at this particular setting, this manga, this story I am conflicted with how a girl like her can be called "devoted" because what? She basically flirts with him and takes care of him like any close family member would?

Like another manga coming to mind is the one of the mother, a devoted mother in fact, who in order to avenge her son's death which was caused by school bullies, she divorces her husband, offers sexual favours to the school principal to be hired as nurse (and continues to do so even after she's hired) all so that she can murder her son's bullies. She even goes as far to be get physically intimate with one of those school bullies so that she can manipulate and then kill him. That's definitely devotion as a mother, so much so that it becomes insanity.

So there are certainly different types of devotion and different depths to how devoted one can be to somebody. But when you have a romance manga, where the FMC is depicted as potentially a slut which likes to flirt with the MC and tries to look after him like a big sister would but is actually in love with him, you can't just call that behavior devotion, especially if it is proven that she's indeed a slut.

 

[Iamcheater]

While Luna's currently at the tipping point, she's fully devoted to Naoto as his 'big sis' since chapter 1, and that's enough to justify the tag being there since the start.


You do realize being mutually exclusive just means you can have one, or the other, but not both at the same time, right?

You got the hierarchy the other way around, devotion is automatically expected UNDER loyalty, especially in regard to romance. It all depends on the level of devotion one has towards others. If one shows a disproportionately higher level of devotion towards a single person in comparison to what they show towards the rest, then one can argue that person could be loyal to that other person, key word being "could".


There are clear boundaries to determine the level of devotion one has for another person, and it's the things they are willing to do for them. You're already running under the assumption that she's 100% riding every guy under the sun with the receipts upfront and centre, as if that's her default level of devotion for everyone, so maybe that's tripping you over with your definition of "devotion".


As far as the tags are concerned, the sheer amount of unprovoked spoiling the MC's getting from the girls are more than enough to warrant that tag. It is specifically this type that falls under their definition of 尽くす系女子, or 'Devoted girl', the actual romance can show up later.

Actually let me ask you something else; let's say you like to read romance manga and you are not familiar with this manga's setting at all, no synopsis. You are forced to decide if you should read this manga by simply checking the tags. You look at all of this manga's tags including the "devoted girl". Presumably, being a romance fan, you are convinced so you then start reading the manga and suddenly you get slapped with all this shite.

Tell me genuinely, would you not feel blindsided by the use of the tags and the employment of the word "devoted" in such a manner?

I will say this and you can choose to deny it: most people, when they see romance, devoted girl, automatically assume a girl like Shina from the angel next door spoils me rotten or even Marin or that Gyaru from Hajimete no Gal. Nobody would consider Luna when thinking about "devoted girl" as a characterization attribute, even if this was a massively popular series. That's just a fact.

 

[shinya78]

Spoiler: BIG POST

No, I 100% cannot fathom how you think that when it comes to romance her "spoiling him as a big sister" means she's a devoted girl. A devoted sister perhaps, if we were to accept that she value her family more than anything. But last time I checked this is not a family manga, there is no assumption that she doesn't love him romantically and that she wants to be his sister. Her spoiling is nothing sort of "sister's spoiling". This is also preface and in fact pretext to what is going to follow.

The 'devoted girl' tag is not exclusive to Luna, it also applies to the other girls.

What do you even mean I "got the hierarchy wrong"? If you are in love with somebody then you devote yourself to making them happy. That's just common sense not a nuanced prerequisite. There are different types of love of course but if she's devoted to him, wouldn't his happiness take precedence over everything else? So if she's really a "devoted girl" then all of this nonesense should have been cleared out by now. Or at least the tag should have been different or added later.

You already gave the answer.

"If you are in love with somebody then you devote yourself to making them happy."
You are expected to be devoted already BEFORE being loyal becomes important, because it's not devotion that keeps a couple together, it's loyalty.

I wasn't trying to argue that the word devotion doesn't have different levels and that it can't be perceived differently, depending on the scenarios. I apologize if my wording implied that. But strictly looking at this particular setting, this manga, this story I am conflicted with how a girl like her can be called "devoted" because what? She basically flirts with him and takes care of him like any close family member would?

I blame the translation of 尽くす系女子 being "devoted girl", it's literally the reason why we're having this discussion in the first place. The nuance is closer to a "yandere minus the insane part" than the western definition. The great debate of Luna being a slut or not though is a different matter entirely.

Like another manga coming to mind is the one of the mother, a devoted mother in fact, who in order to avenge her son's death which was caused by school bullies, she divorces her husband, offers sexual favours to the school principal to be hired as nurse (and continues to do so even after she's hired) all so that she can murder her son's bullies. She even goes as far to be get physically intimate with one of those school bullies so that she can manipulate and then kill him. That's definitely devotion as a mother, so much so that it becomes insanity.

Yup, that's another form of devotion, the manga didn't get the "devoted girl" tag tho because the drama tag is the star.

So there are certainly different types of devotion and different depths to how devoted one can be to somebody. But when you have a romance manga, where the FMC is depicted as potentially a slut which likes to flirt with the MC and tries to look after him like a big sister would but is actually in love with him, you can't just call that behavior devotion, especially if it is proven that she's indeed a slut.

I think the cognitive dissonance here is merely the result of defaultism, people see a word being used and they default to their own definition, regardless of what the word would've meant in the context of its original language.

Actually let me ask you something else; let's say you are not familiar with the setting at all, no synopsis and you like to read romance manga. You look at those all of those tags including the "devoted girl" and that's the only thing you have to go on. You then start reading the manga and suddenly you get slapped with all this shite.

Tell me genuinely, would you not feel blindsided by the use of the tags and the employment of the word "devoted" in such a manner?

Not. at. all.

The story being a Japanese manga automatically means the definition of "devoted" would fit more towards the Japanese 尽くす系女子 archetype. Be it out of duty, the urge to take care of others, or out of desire to be loved, they're the type who are willing to do anything for their chosen person. They don't necessarily need to be in a relationship just yet, the romance tag more or less guarantees romance would come eventually(tm).

I will say this and you can choose to deny it: most people, when they see romance, devoted girl, automatically assume a girl like Shina from the angel next door spoils me rotten or even Marin or that Gyaru from Hajimete no Gal. That's just a fact.

Yeah, they would, no problems there.

One could also argue this other Luna falls under the same 尽くす系女子 archetype, despite the fact that nearly every guy in their school are 'hole bros' because of her. She's VERY devoted to a single partner (read:her 'hopefully future husband' boyfriend), and it's precisely because she "devoted" too hard, too much, and too early, just so the guy won't leave her, that she got her reputation. Other guys would then confess to her after her current partner leaves her just to get a taste of her "devotion", and then leave her for the next guy to get their taste of her "devotion".

 

[Iamcheater]

Not. at. all.

The story being a Japanese manga automatically means the definition of "devoted" would fit more towards the Japanese 尽くす系女子 archetype. Be it out of duty, the urge to take care of others, or out of desire to be loved, they're the type who are willing to do anything for their chosen person. They don't necessarily need to be in a relationship just yet, the romance tag more or less guarantees romance would come eventually(tm).


Yeah, they would, no problems there.

One could also argue this other Luna falls under the same 尽くす系女子 archetype, despite the fact that nearly every guy in their school are 'hole bros' because of her. She's VERY devoted to a single partner (read:her 'hopefully future husband' boyfriend), and it's precisely because she "devoted" too hard, too much, and too early, just so the guy won't leave her, that she got her reputation. Other guys would then confess to her after her current partner leaves her just to get a taste of her "devotion", and then leave her for the next guy to get their taste of her "devotion".

Okay so you are considering she's devoted based on the fact that she wants to look after him as a family. But I promise you most people seeing that tag are not having that expectation.

I most certainly, deliberately, avoided that trash fetish manga you quoted for the very reason you described. The entire manga focusing on how she finally gets "taught" how to behave in a proper relationship and not to pass herself around like candy is extremely messed up and fetishistic. Like no parent in their right mind would alow their daughter to bring a new guy every week and get railed a few times before changing to a new guy. Let alone the fact that her not "realising" that behaviour was fucked up and not a sign of devotion, is blatantly unrealistic, unreasonable and simply dumb. Don't get me started on her "best friends".

But if it boils down to it, she's technically a devoted girl, sure... Cause she finally dedicated herself to one person, properly and they knew nothing about each other before they got together. So while I hate that manga, I can't argue she's a "devoted girl"...

But make no mistake: there's no comparison between that manga to this one. No comparison of that Luna to this one. When it comes to romance, the previously Public onahole Luna, actually fits the bill of what a devoted girlfriend is, if we need to say this properly. Where as Luna from this manga you can argue she's a devoted sister... Hardly... I mean what did she do? Look after him when he was sick and was concerned about his sleep?? That's enough to say she's a "devoted sister"? Perhaps if the manga explores more actions like that then yes maybe they will be enough to call her a devoted sister. Because flirting =/= devotion.

Tldr: This manga's Luna has not shown any convincing signs of being a devoted girl as a lover/girlfriend (which is what people expect when reading those tags, in this type of context) and she has hardly displayed that she is trying to be a devoted sister or family member. On the contrary the author chose to give heaps of evidence to point towards being the exact opposite of what a devoted girlfriend should be. So no, I don't think, in this kind of context, she fits the bill. Not even as a sister because even for that it's way too early. Which is why I am insisting the tag should have come later or not at all.

 

[shinya78]

Okay so you are considering she's devoted based on the fact that she wants to look after him as a family. But I promise you most people seeing that tag are not having that expectation.

If you JUST noticed how I edited my earlier post to answer your other post, then here's the same answer to what is effectively the same question. This also covers the reasoning behind the different expectations people would have because of the tag.

"I blame the translation of 尽くす系女子 being "devoted girl", it's literally the reason why we're having this discussion in the first place. The nuance is closer to a "yandere minus the insane part" than the western definition. I think the cognitive dissonance here is merely the result of defaultism, people see a word being used and they default to their own definition, regardless of what the word would've meant in the context of its original language."

I most certainly, deliberately, avoided that trash fetish manga you quoted for the very reason you described. The entire manga focusing on how she finally gets "taught" how to behave in a proper relationship and not to pass herself around like candy is extremely messed up and fetishistic. Like no parent in their right mind would alow their child to bring new guy every week and get railed a few times before changing guys. Let alone the fact that she didn't "realise" that this was fucked up and not a sign of devotion, is blatantly unrealistic, unreasonable and simply dumb. Don't get me started on her "best friends".

By the Japanese definition of the archetype, she falls under it just on the fact that she's so dedicated to her boyfriend, she's willing to do whatever he demands of her. She went full devotard. Her first guy just wanting to pump and dump got her into a chain, until she eventually lands unto the MC with whom she learned to never go full devotard.