5Toubun no Hanayome - Vol. 13 Ch. 111 - The Last Festival - Itsuki’s Side ③
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Hahaha. It's so hip to pretend that the main heroine is a minor character. Sigh. Why do I argue with children who can't read subtext. You are really doing the author a disservice. All the dialogue between the mains that are NOT shown. It's not what you say, it's what you don't say.
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I like throwdowns.
Now we just wait for that Mudou to die...
Now we just wait for that Mudou to die...
@princeofcups
So you're literally saying she'll win because of all the development she DIDN'T get? That's hilarious.
So you're literally saying she'll win because of all the development she DIDN'T get? That's hilarious.
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@princeofcups your arrogance does a disservice to the author. Plus, a good writer knows that even with subtext, you cannot let all development be "subtext" that is assumed by the readers; I could read the Itsuki subtext you refer to as "great friendship" just like how many others thought of Yotsuba's subtext.
At least I and a good number of others agree that Itsuki has had the least on-screen development, including any form of subtext. I'd even say it's a disservice to any character to say "they get a bar up just because they are main heroine" because that's bad storytelling in the sense that you give a gold medal to one character who happens to be thrusted into that heroine spot; this is probably why Negi-sensei in his interviews explicitly stated how he didn't Itsuki to be put into a dominant position, or else people will expect her to "win" and all build-up for the other sisters will be not as satisfying because "oh, Itsuki will win anyways."
Also, the quote of "it's not what you say, it's what you don't say," you are probably misusing the idea of "show, not tell." A good author knows how to write characters with a good balance of forward development and subtextual content. However, ambiguous subtext is not the same as directed subtext, which has a clear purpose and goal in what it is trying to display for a character; an author who relies on ambiguous subtext is not trying to write a story, but trying to make it easier for themselves to write in whatever direction they want with misdirection and an easy "oh, that scene actually meant X."
@HeroicPasserby @Darcow you have one more comrade with you.
At least I and a good number of others agree that Itsuki has had the least on-screen development, including any form of subtext. I'd even say it's a disservice to any character to say "they get a bar up just because they are main heroine" because that's bad storytelling in the sense that you give a gold medal to one character who happens to be thrusted into that heroine spot; this is probably why Negi-sensei in his interviews explicitly stated how he didn't Itsuki to be put into a dominant position, or else people will expect her to "win" and all build-up for the other sisters will be not as satisfying because "oh, Itsuki will win anyways."
Also, the quote of "it's not what you say, it's what you don't say," you are probably misusing the idea of "show, not tell." A good author knows how to write characters with a good balance of forward development and subtextual content. However, ambiguous subtext is not the same as directed subtext, which has a clear purpose and goal in what it is trying to display for a character; an author who relies on ambiguous subtext is not trying to write a story, but trying to make it easier for themselves to write in whatever direction they want with misdirection and an easy "oh, that scene actually meant X."
@HeroicPasserby @Darcow you have one more comrade with you.
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@GreenMoriyama Character development doesn't have to be blatant and in-your-face to be meaningful. Itsuki's relationship with Fuutarou develops slowly and subtly, but it's definitely there. As long as you're not covering your eyes and ears and blatantly ignoring it so you defend against any possibility that she might gain some ground on your chosen waifu, anyway.
The way their relationship develops over time is by far one of the strongest points of the manga, watching them go from antagonists to casual acquaintances to friends, helping to solve their mutual issues, and generally just identifying with each other. It marks an intriguing contrast to how most of the other quints develop their relationship with him rapidly whenever the focus is on them and then keep things like that for a while, and it's a much more natural and realistic approach that I appreciate. It makes for the most interesting read IMO when you read the story as a whole.
Definitely not to say that she deserves to win over any of the others (each of them has solid reasons that they would make a good harembowl winner), but to disregard her own development as nonexistent just shows you aren't paying attention to her or Negi's story.
The way their relationship develops over time is by far one of the strongest points of the manga, watching them go from antagonists to casual acquaintances to friends, helping to solve their mutual issues, and generally just identifying with each other. It marks an intriguing contrast to how most of the other quints develop their relationship with him rapidly whenever the focus is on them and then keep things like that for a while, and it's a much more natural and realistic approach that I appreciate. It makes for the most interesting read IMO when you read the story as a whole.
Definitely not to say that she deserves to win over any of the others (each of them has solid reasons that they would make a good harembowl winner), but to disregard her own development as nonexistent just shows you aren't paying attention to her or Negi's story.
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@Bufuman
"Character development doesn't have to be blatant and in-your-face to be meaningful."
I can agree with this statement... to an extent. Not all character development has to be the obvious. However, I am taking the position that what has been offered for Itsuki is much too passive, and is based on fans of her believing her friendship with Fuutaro is organic and thus justified. I do admit, I am in ways ignoring parts of her development, but I am also calling into question how much background "development" is permissible. I again brought up Yotsuba because people denied very much that any development that pointed fingers to her actually having feelings were null; I've been in that position. However, I am saying that Itsuki's case of hidden context far surpasses Yotsuba's in the sense of it being much more speculative, or even shallow in the sense that all her development is hinged on an if together with the author only recently putting her in the race after many chapter showing otherwise. In ways, it could be said you are covering your eyes, believing more in a theory than the true value of things that are being laid out; princecup, if not you too, point fingers at other people for ignorance than deliberating how strong the points may really be. And if I am incorrect and your judgement is correct, stick to it and keep telling me off with evidence, not "you are ignoring XX."
"The way their relationship develops over time is by far one of the strongest points of the manga [...]"
I acknowledge, not too many romcoms, especially those that reach as much fame as Gotoubun has received, has a major heroine who has this much theoritical development, together with a relationship that goes almost platonic. However, I'd like to point out that I don't think this is the first ever "antagonist to acquaintance to friends" as I feel that I've observed a number of characters/ heroines going through a similar cycle (although in a different manner at times). That is just one of the ways authors will move a relationship forward, and it is a natural way people can develop. However, I don't think it can exactly be called natural unless you specifically wear the glasses to see it that way, especially with how subtle the developments are; tbf, there is no "normal" relationship development as anyone's romantic relationship can go in all kinds of ways. Heck, I do feel you generalize the other quints, because I don't think they go through developments "rapidly"; some can feel rapid (especially with how the series is paced), but those such as Miku and Yotsuba had a steady climb while Nino and Ichika have the more rocky ones. If you are referring to how romantically charged focus chapters are... well, certainly, yea, they are rapid in development, but a story is written to highlight these kind of key moments that push a relationship forward. But how about Itsuki until the recent chapters?
Essentially, I'd like to argue that Itsuki's relation to Fuutaro, while better off than a Tsundere mess, is not what I would call one of the strongest points of the series. It can be up there, but in this moment, I perceive it as a personal bias on your behalf than one of objectivity.
"[...] to disregard her own development as nonexistent just shows you aren't paying attention to her or Negi's story."
I've made it clear, I do not believe her development to be "nonexistent." No words in my mouth please.
Instead, I am suggesting a few things: Itsuki theoretically has development, but that is more to the reader's disgression until Negi goes forward with grounding more when Itsuki's relation turned from friends into the sudden romantic; I also want to point out how the surprise of Itsuki actually having possible romantic feelings for Fuutaro (thus being in the race) may not have unfolded in the best of ways as it kind of just appeared in one of the recent chapter (and no "you couldn't tell it was coming" because if you did read the chapters over and over, Itsuki's development around Yotsuba's reveal of being the actual Rena was sudden). I will believe you for saying that you believe each sister has a chance, but I am calling out to Prince of Cups above who chose their words specifically to scoff that Itsuki had the lead.
Also, I make the point of correcting Prince of Cups' statement of "show, not tell" specifically because I personally feel that Itsuki's development feels like a case of too little show AND tell. In that Itsuki's theoretical development until now was more subtextual content (if what context we can derive from their friendly relationship does lead to romance), that the notion of her entering the race was a shove down people's throat. More ambiguous subtext for people to play with, but not really directed subtext which we can make proper conclusions off of. Not everyone may pick up on minor details, but sometimes, you can read subtext wrong as a reader (hence why speculation fuel and theory crafting are so much fun for some).
"Character development doesn't have to be blatant and in-your-face to be meaningful."
I can agree with this statement... to an extent. Not all character development has to be the obvious. However, I am taking the position that what has been offered for Itsuki is much too passive, and is based on fans of her believing her friendship with Fuutaro is organic and thus justified. I do admit, I am in ways ignoring parts of her development, but I am also calling into question how much background "development" is permissible. I again brought up Yotsuba because people denied very much that any development that pointed fingers to her actually having feelings were null; I've been in that position. However, I am saying that Itsuki's case of hidden context far surpasses Yotsuba's in the sense of it being much more speculative, or even shallow in the sense that all her development is hinged on an if together with the author only recently putting her in the race after many chapter showing otherwise. In ways, it could be said you are covering your eyes, believing more in a theory than the true value of things that are being laid out; princecup, if not you too, point fingers at other people for ignorance than deliberating how strong the points may really be. And if I am incorrect and your judgement is correct, stick to it and keep telling me off with evidence, not "you are ignoring XX."
"The way their relationship develops over time is by far one of the strongest points of the manga [...]"
I acknowledge, not too many romcoms, especially those that reach as much fame as Gotoubun has received, has a major heroine who has this much theoritical development, together with a relationship that goes almost platonic. However, I'd like to point out that I don't think this is the first ever "antagonist to acquaintance to friends" as I feel that I've observed a number of characters/ heroines going through a similar cycle (although in a different manner at times). That is just one of the ways authors will move a relationship forward, and it is a natural way people can develop. However, I don't think it can exactly be called natural unless you specifically wear the glasses to see it that way, especially with how subtle the developments are; tbf, there is no "normal" relationship development as anyone's romantic relationship can go in all kinds of ways. Heck, I do feel you generalize the other quints, because I don't think they go through developments "rapidly"; some can feel rapid (especially with how the series is paced), but those such as Miku and Yotsuba had a steady climb while Nino and Ichika have the more rocky ones. If you are referring to how romantically charged focus chapters are... well, certainly, yea, they are rapid in development, but a story is written to highlight these kind of key moments that push a relationship forward. But how about Itsuki until the recent chapters?
Essentially, I'd like to argue that Itsuki's relation to Fuutaro, while better off than a Tsundere mess, is not what I would call one of the strongest points of the series. It can be up there, but in this moment, I perceive it as a personal bias on your behalf than one of objectivity.
"[...] to disregard her own development as nonexistent just shows you aren't paying attention to her or Negi's story."
I've made it clear, I do not believe her development to be "nonexistent." No words in my mouth please.
Instead, I am suggesting a few things: Itsuki theoretically has development, but that is more to the reader's disgression until Negi goes forward with grounding more when Itsuki's relation turned from friends into the sudden romantic; I also want to point out how the surprise of Itsuki actually having possible romantic feelings for Fuutaro (thus being in the race) may not have unfolded in the best of ways as it kind of just appeared in one of the recent chapter (and no "you couldn't tell it was coming" because if you did read the chapters over and over, Itsuki's development around Yotsuba's reveal of being the actual Rena was sudden). I will believe you for saying that you believe each sister has a chance, but I am calling out to Prince of Cups above who chose their words specifically to scoff that Itsuki had the lead.
Also, I make the point of correcting Prince of Cups' statement of "show, not tell" specifically because I personally feel that Itsuki's development feels like a case of too little show AND tell. In that Itsuki's theoretical development until now was more subtextual content (if what context we can derive from their friendly relationship does lead to romance), that the notion of her entering the race was a shove down people's throat. More ambiguous subtext for people to play with, but not really directed subtext which we can make proper conclusions off of. Not everyone may pick up on minor details, but sometimes, you can read subtext wrong as a reader (hence why speculation fuel and theory crafting are so much fun for some).
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HAH. Finally the first one NOT to kiss him.
Itsuki FTW. Perfect fake-out. Even a part-time glasses girl is too good for thise useless MC.
And once again the credits page is ripping on her... I guess "dropout" is an appropriate group-name for the lowest of human refuse.
Itsuki FTW. Perfect fake-out. Even a part-time glasses girl is too good for thise useless MC.
And once again the credits page is ripping on her... I guess "dropout" is an appropriate group-name for the lowest of human refuse.
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I hated Nakano-dad for the majority of the series. But after the Nino chapter and now this chapter, I have more respect for him. He may be self absorbed with his work but he is definitely a better father than this old fart
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