Douyara Ore wa Imadoki Gal na Toshiue Osananajimi kara Gekiomo Kanjou wo Mukerareteiru Rashii - Ch. 7.5 - Tantamen

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What the character is feeling inside can be completely different than what we see outside. That's the difference between internal and external conflict. I already told you everything we've seen his brother actually do. As for how he handles the younger sister the most that we've seen is him grabbing her so she doesn't bumped into. We still don't know how he views his relationship with her, but we can assume that their roles are reversed and both boys are being imposed upon by both sisters. These sisters are the point of their external conflict. If they weren't there, at least the older brother wouldn't have anything to be jealous about.

The MC's inferiority complex is his own problem. That's his own internal conflict. Its not his brother's fault that he's just better than him in some aspects. Sure his brother can be mad sometimes but that complex can exaggerate how mad his brother actually gets. MC also knows his brother likes FMC so there's no point in making him jealous for no reason. But even if we take the sisters out of the equation, we haven't seen anything that shows his brother going out of his way to make sure the MC has this complex in any malicious way. These two handle their jealousy in different ways but that's all it is. So when those girls aren't in the equation, they can just be brothers who goad each other on to to do dumb kid stuff like normal siblings do.

This short chapter tells me that while his brother can be really jealous, that whole "I'm gonna kill him" persona is all in his head, or at the very least reserved for the girl he likes. Also all of his mental delusions of his brother seemed to be played as a joke more than anything. The most we've seen of MC being disparaged about his brother are when his classmates wished they had him on their team in gym or something, and when he saw his crush with him. That's not his brother's fault, he cant control how other people think and feel just like the MC can't.
First scene with older brother: Brother glares at him and aggressively warns him not to bother or waste Kano's time. Stomps up stairs. Even mother responds to his angry tone.

Second scene: Glares threateningly at MC.

Third scene: Laughs derisively at MC for... drinking water.

What part doesn't sound like the behavior of a bully? One panel doesn't negate basically every other scene he's been in.
 
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First scene with older brother: Brother glares at him and aggressively warns him not to bother or waste Kano's time. Stomps up stairs. Even mother responds to his angry tone.

Second scene: Glares threateningly at MC.

Third scene: Laughs derisively at MC for... drinking water.

What part doesn't sound like the behavior of a bully? One panel doesn't negate basically every other scene he's been in.

I didn't know mean mugging was a crime now. Along with taking jabs at your siblings. They both were smiling in the end going to eat ice cream. I agree that there is conflict and a bit of antagonism but he's not a bully for getting a little jealous over his crush and teasing his brother.
 
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What the character is feeling inside can be completely different than what we see outside. That's the difference between internal and external conflict. I already told you everything we've seen his brother actually do. As for how he handles the younger sister the most that we've seen is him grabbing her so she doesn't bumped into. We still don't know how he views his relationship with her, but we can assume that their roles are reversed and both boys are being imposed upon by both sisters. These sisters are the point of their external conflict. If they weren't there, at least the older brother wouldn't have anything to be jealous about.

The MC's inferiority complex is his own problem. That's his own internal conflict. Its not his brother's fault that he's just better than him in some aspects. Sure his brother can be mad sometimes but that complex can exaggerate how mad his brother actually gets. MC also knows his brother likes FMC so there's no point in making him jealous for no reason. But even if we take the sisters out of the equation, we haven't seen anything that shows his brother going out of his way to make sure the MC has this complex in any malicious way. These two handle their jealousy in different ways but that's all it is. So when those girls aren't in the equation, they can just be brothers who goad each other on to to do dumb kid stuff like normal siblings do.

This short chapter tells me that while his brother can be really jealous, that whole "I'm gonna kill him" persona is all in his head, or at the very least reserved for the girl he likes. Also all of his mental delusions of his brother seemed to be played as a joke more than anything. The most we've seen of MC being disparaged about his brother are when his classmates wished they had him on their team in gym or something, and when he saw his crush with him. That's not his brother's fault, he cant control how other people think and feel just like the MC can't.
So, your initial comment was "they're only in conflict by circumstance."

And that "circumstance" is that each sister likes the "wrong" brother.
MC is handling that internally, pointed towards himself.
His brother is handling that externally, pointed at MC.

Therein lies the imbalance in how they're handling their "circumstantial conflict", and that's why I said the brother could just not be outwardly cold to the MC. over something neither of them actually have any control over (they can't make either sister like the "correct" brother, after all).

The "only" in your initial statement is honestly the sticking point - it's not only central to the plot of the actual manga, but this conflict between them is entirely focused in one direction "externally", as in what we can see portrayed in the world of the story for all the characters to notice.
No, his brother isn't physically hurting the MC over it, but being snubbed and treated coldly by your twin (since the MC says that's actually what his brother is), is no small thing.

And no - that doesn't mean they can't ever get along or have okay days between them. But one chapter (and an "extra/side story" at that) doesn't negate the fact that the FMC still likes the MC, and the brother is mad at the MC for "interfering with the FMC's life and for being close to her", and it's such a core part of the conflict of the central plot that I fully expect to see it come up repeatedly going forward.
 
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So, your initial comment was "they're only in conflict by circumstance."

And that "circumstance" is that each sister likes the "wrong" brother.
MC is handling that internally, pointed towards himself.
His brother is handling that externally, pointed at MC.

Therein lies the imbalance in how they're handling their "circumstantial conflict", and that's why I said the brother could just not be outwardly cold to the MC. over something neither of them actually have any control over (they can't make either sister like the "correct" brother, after all).

The "only" in your initial statement is honestly the sticking point - it's not only central to the plot of the actual manga, but this conflict between them is entirely focused in one direction "externally", as in what we can see portrayed in the world of the story for all the characters to notice.
No, his brother isn't physically hurting the MC over it, but being snubbed and treated coldly by your twin (since the MC says that's actually what his brother is), is no small thing.

And no - that doesn't mean they can't ever get along or have okay days between them. But one chapter (and an "extra/side story" at that) doesn't negate the fact that the FMC still likes the MC, and the brother is mad at the MC for "interfering with the FMC's life and for being close to her", and it's such a core part of the conflict of the central plot that I fully expect to see it come up repeatedly going forward.
My problem is how you describe "conflict". You speak as it if its their form of expression to each other when I've clearly stated that Conflict is just the clashing of desires.

They could have the nicest relationship in the world but because they both like different sisters, they would still be in conflict. The fact that it is about and outside source out of their control is what makes it external. Knowing the MC's feelings for his brother outside of dealing with those girls gives him an extra form of Internal conflict that we haven't yet seen from his twin. Internal and external isn't about how you express yourself, its about where the problem comes from.

The imbalance that you're speaking of is that one twin is the MC and we only get to peak into his mind and not the other, and that's just a narrative choice that isn't inherently right or wrong. I'm not trying to make light of their conflict as much as I'm glad this extra chapter rounded the brother out and made him more of a character. Yes its a side chapter but what it does is important to possibly get to his internal conflict and see what he really thinks about the situation.
 
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I didn't know mean mugging was a crime now. Along with taking jabs at your siblings. They both were smiling in the end going to eat ice cream. I agree that there is conflict and a bit of antagonism but he's not a bully for getting a little jealous over his crush and teasing his brother.
1) Who said it was a crime? I just said his brother was bullying him.

2) When only one person does the jabbing and the other only shrinks away, and it happens over and over again, yeah, that's bullying.

3) Lots of people smile at their bullies if shown the least bit of friendliness. It's a kind of appeasement/approval seeking behavior. It's very common and very well-documented.

4) He's not teasing him. He is literally trying to intimidate him into not meeting with or talking to Kano.
 
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1) Who said it was a crime? I just said his brother was bullying him.

2) When only one person does the jabbing and the other only shrinks away, and it happens over and over again, yeah, that's bullying.

3) Lots of people smile at their bullies if shown the least bit of friendliness. It's a kind of appeasement/approval seeking behavior. It's very common and very well-documented.

4) He's not teasing him. He is literally trying to intimidate him into not meeting with or talking to Kano.
I wonder if English is your first language or you don't know any common sayings, because if it is and you do, this might be the most condescending thing you might read this week.

1) Calling it a "crime" is a Metaphor for how judgmental some of you are in the comments on his brother's behavior. A figure of speech if you will. If he was harassing his brother to the point that people call it bullying then it would actually be a crime but I used that common saying "So (blank) is a crime now" to show how extra some of you are being to someone just glaring at another person.

2) But there's no real jabbing being done. MC being insecure is his own problem. The context is that it only happens when the sister the brother likes is involved. He's just jealous and he's really doing the least he could about it. Its not like his brother said, "If you go see her, I'ma get you". Or he beat him up. Sure the MC sees his brother as this really hostile threat but as we stated "inferiority complex." So far his brother has just seen a jealous teen. He told him not to bother her. Even emotionally this wouldn't count as bullying.

2) I feel like the context of them being brothers is being overlooked. The willingness to share a table, their similar likes, the competitive nature between them. This isn't "random". Its to show you how much alike these two actually are and how they get along when Love isn't in the way.

4) Even the MC calls it teasing and he's not downplaying it. He didn't have to be egged one but he took the bait and they both equally paid for it. He noticed and suggested they'd get ice cream. Not to calm him down or win him over but to stop the burning they both equally inflicted on each other and laugh about how stupid they both were.

And for as much as I am yapping, all of this is at face value because this story isn't that deep. Both brothers like the other sisters and the sisters like the other brothers. That's it. These extra chapters are supposed to mirror each other and show that despite the conflict they are in as love rivals both families still love each other.
 
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I wonder if English is your first language or you don't know any common sayings, because if it is and you do, this might be the most condescending thing you might read this week.

1) Calling it a "crime" is a Metaphor for how judgmental some of you are in the comments on his brother's behavior. A figure of speech if you will. If he was harassing his brother to the point that people call it bullying then it would actually be a crime but I used that common saying "So (blank) is a crime now" to show how extra some of you are being to someone just glaring at another person.

2) But there's no real jabbing being done. MC being insecure is his own problem. The context is that it only happens when the sister the brother likes is involved. He's just jealous and he's really doing the least he could about it. Its not like his brother said, "If you go see her, I'ma get you". Or he beat him up. Sure the MC sees his brother as this really hostile threat but as we stated "inferiority complex." So far his brother has just seen a jealous teen. He told him not to bother her. Even emotionally this wouldn't count as bullying.

2) I feel like the context of them being brothers is being overlooked. The willingness to share a table, their similar likes, the competitive nature between them. This isn't "random". Its to show you how much alike these two actually are and how they get along when Love isn't in the way.

4) Even the MC calls it teasing and he's not downplaying it. He didn't have to be egged one but he took the bait and they both equally paid for it. He noticed and suggested they'd get ice cream. Not to calm him down or win him over but to stop the burning they both equally inflicted on each other and laugh about how stupid they both were.

And for as much as I am yapping, all of this is at face value because this story isn't that deep. Both brothers like the other sisters and the sisters like the other brothers. That's it. These extra chapters are supposed to mirror each other and show that despite the conflict they are in as love rivals both families still love each other.
1) Actually, that's not a metaphor, as those accurately reframe in order to elucidate meaning (at least the good ones). What you employed is referred to as "straw man" where a claim is distorted or exaggerated in order to make it easier to refute claims and appear to strengthen one's argument. You might not have intended it as such, but it is the net effect regardless.

2) First off, I'm not the one who introduced the topic of "jabbing" -- you did when you wrote: "I didn't know mean mugging was a crime now. Along with taking jabs at your siblings." My use of your own term was deliberate to ensure clarity of concept. It doesn't seem to have worked but that was the intent.

In any event, audibly scoffing at someone needs no such specific context. Open displays of contempt within a general pattern of aggression are a huge indicator of the poor state of their relationship. This is probably most famously known in the studies by Gottman but is supported by numerous works on relationship dynamics as is the fact that sibling aggression, even in mild levels, are linked to higher mental health distress in teens and predicts lower self-esteem and symptoms of depression. So, while the MC being insecure is an issue he needs to deal with, his brother's treatment of him is undoubtedly foundational to its formation.

2) You're proving my point: The older brother literally and openly displays contempt for the MC in this chapter when "when Love isn't in the way." It's simply how he treats his younger brother in daily life.

4) It's good to remember that "teasing" is just the translation. It's possible that you're right and that the original word was light or ambiguous like からかう. But, it could also cross the line into something harsher like ばかにする -- or it could be something else entirely. I don't have the raws so I have no idea. Point is, it's not a good idea to point to specific word choice without knowing the source material.

Not that it needs to be very harsh in order to support my point. As stated earlier, even mild levels of sibling aggression can damage the targeted sibling.

5) The story might, indeed, not be that deep -- more than likely, really. That being said, it doesn't negate anything I've said. The underlying psychology presented in the manga is what the underlying psychology is and in the absence of explicit word from the author, it's best policy to default to the established understanding of actual human nature to bridge the gaps and backfill motivation.
 
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1) Actually, that's not a metaphor, as those accurately reframe in order to elucidate meaning (at least the good ones). What you employed is referred to as "straw man" where a claim is distorted or exaggerated in order to make it easier to refute claims and appear to strengthen one's argument. You might not have intended it as such, but it is the net effect regardless.

2) First off, I'm not the one who introduced the topic of "jabbing" -- you did when you wrote: "I didn't know mean mugging was a crime now. Along with taking jabs at your siblings." My use of your own term was deliberate to ensure clarity of concept. It doesn't seem to have worked but that was the intent.

In any event, audibly scoffing at someone needs no such specific context. Open displays of contempt within a general pattern of aggression are a huge indicator of the poor state of their relationship. This is probably most famously known in the studies by Gottman but is supported by numerous works on relationship dynamics as is the fact that sibling aggression, even in mild levels, are linked to higher mental health distress in teens and predicts lower self-esteem and symptoms of depression. So, while the MC being insecure is an issue he needs to deal with, his brother's treatment of him is undoubtedly foundational to its formation.

2) You're proving my point: The older brother literally and openly displays contempt for the MC in this chapter when "when Love isn't in the way." It's simply how he treats his younger brother in daily life.

4) It's good to remember that "teasing" is just the translation. It's possible that you're right and that the original word was light or ambiguous like からかう. But, it could also cross the line into something harsher like ばかにする -- or it could be something else entirely. I don't have the raws so I have no idea. Point is, it's not a good idea to point to specific word choice without knowing the source material.

Not that it needs to be very harsh in order to support my point. As stated earlier, even mild levels of sibling aggression can damage the targeted sibling.

5) The story might, indeed, not be that deep -- more than likely, really. That being said, it doesn't negate anything I've said. The underlying psychology presented in the manga is what the underlying psychology is and in the absence of explicit word from the author, it's best policy to default to the established understanding of actual human nature to bridge the gaps and backfill motivation.

1) you can say my basic turn of phrase isn't necessarily a metaphor, that comparison is kind of weak, but as explained it was about you and the other people I'm writing comments to in how you judge the brother's action. That's not a strawman because you literally called him a bully. I want you to know that, that IS a crime. So I made mention to the worst thing we've seen his brother do this entire series. His brother told him to not bother the older sister but he didn't threaten him to not hang out with her. And no, that's not to down play anything, that's just what literally happened in the story.

(sorry about the two 2s I was trying to straighten out the points)

2) Of course the context matters, even in real life it matters but more so here because these aren't real people, they're characters in a story. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed but by and large teens are going to egg each other on to build themselves up even when they aren't aggressive toward each other. The brother calling out the MC for drinking water is petty but its so believing by petty that if it really hurts the MC's self-esteem, there's a deeper problem at play.But it doesn't, he takes on the challenge and they both equally pay for it by the end. That is to show that dispite everything, as brothers, they're still equals. Plus we've seen that deeper problem is with how OTHER people compare the two of them which stings more because the girl that the MC likes, likes his brother.

4) I think the biggest problem with your anaylsis is that its built entierly off of things you don't know and you're using that to hold up your argument. You could at the very least try to make an actuate translation of the words you used in this point and get across the sevarity of them but that doesn't change what his brother did was teasing because from basic social queues its nothing more than that.

5) And back to your analysis, its built off more so trying to fill in blanks than analyzing the context of the story. If you went up to anyone to complain about what the Brotehr has done to the MC at most they'd tell you that he's been a little rude but there's nothing anyone could really do anything about it because nothing has really happened yet. I agree that he's a little mean but I wouldn't even call the brother an asshole, let alone a bully from what we've actually seen. Things happen for a reason. These extra chapters have been about both sets of siblings for a reason. You're are suposed to compare and contraxt the context in which these characters are interacting with each other. Which you've done, but the bad faith "defense mechanicsim of smiling to your agressor" mentality is just a bad reading of what that is. Your angle is that the brother is a bully and you're doing your best to explain why that is but that reading is so far fundamentally wrong and mischaracterizes their relationship in an extra ment to show you that there isn't complete bad blood between the two of them.
 
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1) It's a stra
1) you can say my basic turn of phrase isn't necessarily a metaphor, that comparison is kind of weak, but as explained it was about you and the other people I'm writing comments to in how you judge the brother's action. That's not a strawman because you literally called him a bully. I want you to know that, that IS a crime. So I made mention to the worst thing we've seen his brother do this entire series. His brother told him to not bother the older sister but he didn't threaten him to not hang out with her. And no, that's not to down play anything, that's just what literally happened in the story.

(sorry about the two 2s I was trying to straighten out the points)

2) Of course the context matters, even in real life it matters but more so here because these aren't real people, they're characters in a story. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed but by and large teens are going to egg each other on to build themselves up even when they aren't aggressive toward each other. The brother calling out the MC for drinking water is petty but its so believing by petty that if it really hurts the MC's self-esteem, there's a deeper problem at play.But it doesn't, he takes on the challenge and they both equally pay for it by the end. That is to show that dispite everything, as brothers, they're still equals. Plus we've seen that deeper problem is with how OTHER people compare the two of them which stings more because the girl that the MC likes, likes his brother.

4) I think the biggest problem with your anaylsis is that its built entierly off of things you don't know and you're using that to hold up your argument. You could at the very least try to make an actuate translation of the words you used in this point and get across the sevarity of them but that doesn't change what his brother did was teasing because from basic social queues its nothing more than that.

5) And back to your analysis, its built off more so trying to fill in blanks than analyzing the context of the story. If you went up to anyone to complain about what the Brotehr has done to the MC at most they'd tell you that he's been a little rude but there's nothing anyone could really do anything about it because nothing has really happened yet. I agree that he's a little mean but I wouldn't even call the brother an asshole, let alone a bully from what we've actually seen. Things happen for a reason. These extra chapters have been about both sets of siblings for a reason. You're are suposed to compare and contraxt the context in which these characters are interacting with each other. Which you've done, but the bad faith "defense mechanicsim of smiling to your agressor" mentality is just a bad reading of what that is. Your angle is that the brother is a bully and you're doing your best to explain why that is but that reading is so far fundamentally wrong and mischaracterizes their relationship in an extra ment to show you that there isn't complete bad blood between the two of them.
1) You said: "I didn't know mean mugging was a crime now."

I never claimed that it was. All I said was the older brother was clearly bullying him. But the thing is, bullying isn't a crime. There are acts associated with what is considered bullying (coercion, physical violence, etc.) but there is no specific criminal penalty attached to the term "bullying" itself. You cannot be arrested, brought to trial nor convicted on "bullying" charges. Because it is not a crime, I could not have asserted that glaring -- even in a threatening manner -- is a crime which negates your assertion made in your rhetorical question.

So, yeah, it's a strawman.

2) If, as you said, said context is critical because this is a work of fiction, you should give equal weight to every other scene where the older brother appears and what is shown: Domineering personality, displays of open contempt and threatening glares. You're merely focusing on one panel and using it as justification to dismiss the vast preponderance material that should be forming the context that you say is important.

Also, none of this actually addresses my point about the established underlying psychology that supports my interpretation and refutes yours. Since I'm pointing these logical fallacies out, this is known as ignoratio elenchi.

4) Okay, this is how this part of the conversation went:

You offered the use of the word "teasing" as proof that the older brother's scoffing was harmless.

I reminded you that you shouldn't put any weight behind that because it's a translation, so the exact word used (and the intent because much of Japanese is context/relationship driven) by the actual author is, for the moment, unknown.

So, in reality, the person whose analysis is based on things they don't know is, ironically, you.

Seems like a combination of projection and tu quoque?

5) I could go up to anyone and ask? Really? That's an interesting claim considering there are comments in this very thread that disagree with you.

This is argumentum ad populum, or appeal to popularity.

Anyway, I'd just point out that my interpretation of event is backed by the majority of scenes the older brother is in, the younger brother's thoughts about seeing his brother as a threatening figure and established human psychology. I don't think your position is as well-supported.
But, let's just drop this, shall we? After this round of responses, it's absolutely clear that no amount of evidence will satisfy you (a fallacy with a very interesting name should you care to look it up) as you are only invested in winning an argument and not arriving at a better answer. There's no point to any further discussion.

Have a nice day.
 
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1) It's a stra

1) You said: "I didn't know mean mugging was a crime now."

I never claimed that it was. All I said was the older brother was clearly bullying him. But the thing is, bullying isn't a crime. There are acts associated with what is considered bullying (coercion, physical violence, etc.) but there is no specific criminal penalty attached to the term "bullying" itself. You cannot be arrested, brought to trial nor convicted on "bullying" charges. Because it is not a crime, I could not have asserted that glaring -- even in a threatening manner -- is a crime which negates your assertion made in your rhetorical question.

So, yeah, it's a strawman.

2) If, as you said, said context is critical because this is a work of fiction, you should give equal weight to every other scene where the older brother appears and what is shown: Domineering personality, displays of open contempt and threatening glares. You're merely focusing on one panel and using it as justification to dismiss the vast preponderance material that should be forming the context that you say is important.

Also, none of this actually addresses my point about the established underlying psychology that supports my interpretation and refutes yours. Since I'm pointing these logical fallacies out, this is known as ignoratio elenchi.

4) Okay, this is how this part of the conversation went:

You offered the use of the word "teasing" as proof that the older brother's scoffing was harmless.

I reminded you that you shouldn't put any weight behind that because it's a translation, so the exact word used (and the intent because much of Japanese is context/relationship driven) by the actual author is, for the moment, unknown.

So, in reality, the person whose analysis is based on things they don't know is, ironically, you.

Seems like a combination of projection and tu quoque?

5) I could go up to anyone and ask? Really? That's an interesting claim considering there are comments in this very thread that disagree with you.

This is argumentum ad populum, or appeal to popularity.

Anyway, I'd just point out that my interpretation of event is backed by the majority of scenes the older brother is in, the younger brother's thoughts about seeing his brother as a threatening figure and established human psychology. I don't think your position is as well-supported.
But, let's just drop this, shall we? After this round of responses, it's absolutely clear that no amount of evidence will satisfy you (a fallacy with a very interesting name should you care to look it up) as you are only invested in winning an argument and not arriving at a better answer. There's no point to any further discussion.

Have a nice day.
Its not so much about me wining an argument as it is about you being disingenuous. You are so detached from the real world and how people actually act around each other that I find it scary you can speak so much on a subject you know absolutely nothing about. You disregard anything I say within the full text I am typing and nitpick semantic that don't really matter to death. You disregard the context the story presents with in how it shows the two brother's relationship. I back up everything I've typed in reference to the story itself while you dodge around going "well, we can guess from patterns" or "we dont' know what word was used in the native language" Which I wanted to learn from the examples that you gave but you didn't feel the need to clarify.

And the reason I go so hard is that people in this comment section don't know how to read and analysis text. Even if you or anyone else disagrees with me they way I tackled this text isn't wrong. I looked at what happens, I looked at the context it happened in. I compared to to what the story clearly wants you to compare it to. And what I saw was a character being more fleshed out and a lot of people going, "so, he's still and asshole" I guess, but what else? But all in all' when I ignore you, and look at the totality of these comments, I realize that some people do see it. And that's okay.
 

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