Dragon and Chameleon - Vol. 3 Ch. 17 - Unexpected

[MangaDex]

 

[Teasday]

Short but effective

 

[Doomroar]

Seems like they don't have the best of rep with each other...

"Grand master. Mistress Orochi. Supreme leader. God. Budda. I've been called many things"

She forgot the favorite of the comment section "Snek Dommy Mommy"

Oh shit so he is gonna start cooking with DL fr fr now, and actually surpass the original!?

 

[kaloo]

I mean he's never hidden his identity so far so I assume he's just going to tell her and look crazy.

 

[thatlittlepichu]

aaaaaaaaa I really wanted to see him face his teach but jebaited again... good chapter though. TY for the translation

 

[TheMode]

some of the early designs were peak..

 

[chunkyfunkymonkey]

Nice short chapter, so Shinobu is making DL his own.. boy better pray he doesn't mess it up lol

I wonder if Orochi will believe that it's actually Garyou

 

[UnderworldBlues]

i love her

 

[Amedesunee]

The Snake calls The Dragon worm. Garyou is too way flippant to keep secrets. Don't give that guy the nuke code.

 

[Halex]

Worm more like Wyrm

 

[K_Takuya]

I wonder, did he call her "sensei" in japanese or something else entirely? I'm asking since IIRC the japanese do call authors as sensei

 

[Shinobu]

I expected more snake mommy

 

[Teasday]

I wonder, did he call her "sensei" in japanese or something else entirely? I'm asking since IIRC the japanese do call authors as sensei

I answered this here, but short answer is he calls her shishou, and we've kept sensei (most of the time) untranslated anyway

 

[Matthewkeen]

nice.

 

[konig]

SNAKE MOMMY IS BACK HOORAYY

 

[nclsdv]

I don't like when a new character (trope) gets fleshed out. It's a betrayal to the initial idea of a series, and by extension, betrayal to reader's expectation. Yes, betrayal of expectation, not subverting it. For example--

--One-Punch Man's Saitama is the "hidden boss" trope. I liked that idea so much - to have a banal guy capable of beating every mofo in the world - represents my fantasy of the normal me capable of effortlessly and inconsequentially killing all scums that I hate in this world. That's why I picked up the series. But when they shift focus to that cyborg guy, it turned into the "guy striving for greatness through effort and perseverance" trope. It's not what I wanted from One-Punch Man. If I fantasized that trope, I'd have read Naruto, One Piece or Bleach instead.

Deciding to flesh out a new character trope shows sign of change and invention from the artist. It shows their growth. That's nothing wrong. It's great that the artist grow with their work, and can create new, compelling characters. But don't shove them in the same work w/ the original trope, because it ruins the fantasy fulfillment for the original reader. Put it in a new work. Let each work have its own merit, its own target audience, its own main idea, and ultimately, its own fulfillment.

 

[Gogglesluxio]

I don't like when a new character (trope) gets fleshed out. It's a betrayal to the initial idea of a series, and by extension, betrayal to reader's expectation. Yes, betrayal of expectation, not subverting it. For example--

--One-Punch Man's Saitama is the "hidden boss" trope. I liked that idea so much - to have a banal guy capable of beating every mofo in the world - represents my fantasy of the normal me capable of effortlessly and inconsequentially killing all scums that I hate in this world. That's why I picked up the series. But when they shift focus to that cyborg guy, it turned into the "guy striving for greatness through effort and perseverance" trope. It's not what I wanted from One-Punch Man. If I fantasized that trope, I'd have read Naruto, One Piece or Bleach instead.

Deciding to flesh out a new character trope shows sign of change and invention from the artist. It shows their growth. That's nothing wrong. It's great that the artist grow with their work, and can create new, compelling characters. But don't shove them in the same work w/ the original trope, because it ruins the fantasy fulfillment for the original reader. Put it in a new work. Let each work have its own merit, its own target audience, its own main idea, and ultimately, its own fulfillment.

That's under the MASSIVE assumption that DL is a manga that has such a singular concept as OPM. The reason that anybody would be turned off by the shift in focus away from Saitama and onto other characters is because Saitama is the singularity that the series hinges on; he is THE One Punch Man. Saitama is what makes the concept that OPM is built on function at all. He is so simple and so simply strong that he can carry a series just like that and fulfill the fantasy of strength in the readers. However, conceptually, Saitama only works if every other creature is treated as another jobber that serves as a measuring stick of Saitama's strength. In this case, you are right. In ONE's decision to give a spotlight to the rest of the case and make them real characters with their own strength outside of Saitama, the series stopped being about its singular concept of an ordinary man who yearned for incredible strength, only to achieve and grow bored. It, as a story, fundamentally changed from the point ONE shifted the focus to more heroes. In this way, people who chose to read the series to fulfill a fantasy of Saitama's strength may find themselves alienated as they lose the place to project themselves onto that vessel of strength.

However, the change in the fictional manga of DL was not a fundamental shift like that, but the fleshing out of a side character previously of little importance (but with some amount of a fanbase). It is not in the same vein as OPM expanding its scope but in the same vein as something like the Kuma flashback in One Piece. One Piece has always been a story about dreams and freedom and even rebellion to a certain degree, the fantasy being sold through Luffy's pursuit of an impossible dream, but Kuma in many ways is an antithesis to this who does not dream of greatness, decided to submit to authority, and lets himself be bound by others. However, there isn't a dissonance between the feel of Kuma and the feel of the main plot with Luffy (at least the serious moments), because One Piece has always been a series that valued the connections between others greatly, even to a greater degree than freedom or dreams at times. The central draw of One Piece, the fantasy that is being fulfilled, is almost certainly the romance of adventure and freedom and the pursuit of dreams. But time and time again there are character's bound to others or to duty and who will give up parts of their own joy and wellbeing for the things they are bound to (including and especially Luffy). Under an understanding of the central draw/fantasy to be fulfilled being tantamount to its merit as a work and main idea, characters who will choose to be less than free for the sake of something else being so idealized would be a mistake on Oda's part. A mistake he has repeated over and over and over again, ever since Chapter 1. For this reason, I view this fulfillment view of storytelling as very shallow. One Piece has always been a story about someone who lives freely and someone who lives true to his dreams, and it has also always been a story about kindness and bonds. The fantasy is freedom, but the central idea that underscores most of the positive moments is kindness and love (and what underscores negative moments is contrarily cruelty and hatred).

Manga is a special medium in that it is both entertainment and art. There is absolutely nothing wrong with reading manga to fulfill a yearning missing from your life or reality itself. However, the fulfillment of a fantasy is nothing but a singular independent but interconnected aspect of a work. The core fantasy and the core ideas presented in a manga are inherently separate and capable of being changed independent of each other (although most works will likely align the two very closely). One Punch Man has always been a manga about an overly powerful but otherwise ordinary man destroying everything in his path, that was the hook, especially as a gag manga, but it has also always been about putting in the effort to achieve your dreams, the desire to challenge yourself, and the pain of stagnation or supposed stagnation. You can call the shift in OPM as a betrayal of the readers who were fulfilling their fantasy through a gag manga, but only because that fantasy being sold was in service to being a gag manga (and made an exploration of these ideas much harder). It is only in those cases where an author decides to fundamentally shift the tone of a story out of their desire to make their work about the ideas they put into it and not the fantasy they were selling that you could ever reasonably call it a "betrayal." And even then only when that core fantasy and the core ideas were at odds in some way would anyone decide to do so.

 

[nclsdv]

That's under the MASSIVE assumption that DL is a manga that has such a singular concept as OPM. The reason that anybody would be turned off by the shift in focus away from Saitama and onto other characters is because Saitama is the singularity that the series hinges on; he is THE One Punch Man. Saitama is what makes the concept that OPM is built on function at all. He is so simple and so simply strong that he can carry a series just like that and fulfill the fantasy of strength in the readers. However, conceptually, Saitama only works if every other creature is treated as another jobber that serves as a measuring stick of Saitama's strength. In this case, you are right. In ONE's decision to give a spotlight to the rest of the case and make them real characters with their own strength outside of Saitama, the series stopped being about its singular concept of an ordinary man who yearned for incredible strength, only to achieve and grow bored. It, as a story, fundamentally changed from the point ONE shifted the focus to more heroes. In this way, people who chose to read the series to fulfill a fantasy of Saitama's strength may find themselves alienated as they lose the place to project themselves onto that vessel of strength.

However, the change in the fictional manga of DL was not a fundamental shift like that, but the fleshing out of a side character previously of little importance (but with some amount of a fanbase). It is not in the same vein as OPM expanding its scope but in the same vein as something like the Kuma flashback in One Piece. One Piece has always been a story about dreams and freedom and even rebellion to a certain degree, the fantasy being sold through Luffy's pursuit of an impossible dream, but Kuma in many ways is an antithesis to this who does not dream of greatness, decided to submit to authority, and lets himself be bound by others. However, there isn't a dissonance between the feel of Kuma and the feel of the main plot with Luffy (at least the serious moments), because One Piece has always been a series that valued the connections between others greatly, even to a greater degree than freedom or dreams at times. The central draw of One Piece, the fantasy that is being fulfilled, is almost certainly the romance of adventure and freedom and the pursuit of dreams. But time and time again there are character's bound to others or to duty and who will give up parts of their own joy and wellbeing for the things they are bound to (including and especially Luffy). Under an understanding of the central draw/fantasy to be fulfilled being tantamount to its merit as a work and main idea, characters who will choose to be less than free for the sake of something else being so idealized would be a mistake on Oda's part. A mistake he has repeated over and over and over again, ever since Chapter 1. For this reason, I view this fulfillment view of storytelling as very shallow. One Piece has always been a story about someone who lives freely and someone who lives true to his dreams, and it has also always been a story about kindness and bonds. The fantasy is freedom, but the central idea that underscores most of the positive moments is kindness and love (and what underscores negative moments is contrarily cruelty and hatred).

Manga is a special medium in that it is both entertainment and art. There is absolutely nothing wrong with reading manga to fulfill a yearning missing from your life or reality itself. However, the fulfillment of a fantasy is nothing but a singular independent but interconnected aspect of a work. The core fantasy and the core ideas presented in a manga are inherently separate and capable of being changed independent of each other (although most works will likely align the two very closely). One Punch Man has always been a manga about an overly powerful but otherwise ordinary man destroying everything in his path, that was the hook, especially as a gag manga, but it has also always been about putting in the effort to achieve your dreams, the desire to challenge yourself, and the pain of stagnation or supposed stagnation. You can call the shift in OPM as a betrayal of the readers who were fulfilling their fantasy through a gag manga, but only because that fantasy being sold was in service to being a gag manga (and made an exploration of these ideas much harder). It is only in those cases where an author decides to fundamentally shift the tone of a story out of their desire to make their work about the ideas they put into it and not the fantasy they were selling that you could ever reasonably call it a "betrayal." And even then only when that core fantasy and the core ideas were at odds in some way would anyone decide to do so.

First, thank you for the great reply. I can tell it's filled with effort, and raised great points for discussion. It's not often on the internet to stumble upon someone with as much earnest and heart.

However, my opinion is from a simple reader's perspective, when deciding which new series to follow. I won't scrutinize the work's fantasy and core idea, but rather simply try to get a vague gist from its few first pages (like the "Dash start" mission in chapter 10). When this gist is changed too much or too often, it may become a betrayal to the reader. You understand my sentiment, generalized by the OPM example. I'm sure everyone have felt that betrayal somewhere else before, for all kinds of reasons.

And that's why I came to dislike the idea of change being depicted in this manga. B/c while I'm only assuming DL's development, I've seen its real life instances; and more often than not, they left sour taste in my mouth, turned me completely off from a manga. Surely changes can be done well too, theoretically; but reality have proven otherwise for me one too many times. Let me raise a few examples: I dropped--

• Jujutsu Kaisen at the tournament. Its scale became unmanageable. Its power system became incomprehensible
• Naruto at the Six Path Sage Mode. It's not ninja systems, techniques and missions anymore, but rather who has a bigger dick
• One Piece at the Big Mama island. It's not pirate logistics or naval warfare anymore, but became cookie-cutter adventure

Surely we can dress these changes in beautiful words. JJK is fleshing out the power scale, core idea still about the jutsu. Naruto is growing to face more serious threats, overcoming greater hardship to attain greater heights. One Piece is retaining the freedom and spirit of adventure. All well and true, but what made them unique, what initially hooked me were all thrown out of the window.

Having said all that, I think it's better I read a product manual or a guidebook. They stay true to their core til the end.

 

[Beregorn]

The other reason a background character is fleshed out is because they are going to die the next chapter