Gal Can't Be Kind to Otaku!? - Vol. 7 Ch. 47

[huntercheco]

Can't wait for the birthday party

 

[AnacondaHL]

I didn't even know oshi was used as a verb it's pretty weird like this tbh

 

[DorianMallette]

I only commented on the first version because I love linguistics, and certainly didn't want to annoy the scanlation team or think that anything HAD to be changed. But I think releasing an alternate version like this is a really cool thing to do! Thanks for bringing this to us in all the different ways! We appreciate the hell out of y'all!!!

 

[Kida]

While I know the differences between oshi/fave/stan and whatever, I feel the joke following it flows much better in the first version. While "push forward" might sound strange I find it leads more naturally into the following panel for a joke that lands, at least better than having the joke float for a bit before I understand that "oshi" by itself means push but it's actually a shortening for "oshikatsu"

 

[GreC_89]

I do prefer "oshi" to "fave", but that's more just that I hate "fave". It sounds so cringe. Why not use "stan" or something else? Like stan would be much closer to the slang usage the word is going for and is an actual word people use to describe superfans (though the context would have to be changed slightly to describe Ijichi as a Seo stan instead of Seo as her oshi). Or just keep "fave". It's just one word. Hardly matters that much if some people do or do not like it.

I do think that 'stan' even worst version of all, mostly because never meet it before aside in this work. And even there my reaction was

My immediate reaction/thought goes to JOJO, not some subculture. Especially for me who need to translate English into my own subconsciously to understand. I would be good with 'fave' anyway but since we already dealing with slangs that barely anyone know outside of small circles why not use region original aka 'oshi'. Given Japan policy its only a mater of time before its transform into a loanword and replace analogues, like café, Kindergarten and déjà vu. There already tofu and saké anyway.

Reading the comments there's a lot of nice back and forth on this and some very not nice minimizing back and forth. I'll say what I really hate about the internet is everyone thinking they're an expert on something and have discovered the singular correct answer, so they feel the need to diminish the issue to insults and mud slinging. However, the reality is that actual experts who specialize in the field have been studying and debating and deriving non answers but general guidelines (even with stuff like language) for centuries now.

Language is an INCREDIBLY complex matter. It is something that exists not just in verbal and written speech, but so many nonverbal nodes and even modifiers for verbal like tone and inflection. For example, satire is a b*tch to translate to any audience that has a language or culture that doesn't really use satire. I mean you can't really translate something like it at all. It's interesting going to another country and realizing that your fluency and mastery of the words themselves is like maybe half of the process of actually communicating who you are (not like a background but just your personality and character) in an entirely different culture. Communication goes beyond language and language itself is complicated in that it influences culture and is also influenced by culture.

There are a lot of great examples of Japanese words that are difficult to translate while maintaining their meaning. But I'll complicate the matter more. You can perfectly translate all of them either with a dictionary translation or something that closely matches the original meaning. Like the example of "いただきます" is given. It really isn't that difficult to translate. You can "let's give grace" and more western audiences will understand that and it's in English so there's that. That's be more of a localization though. You could keep it dictionary and just say "we humbly recieve this food." That sounds nice and. Is neutral enough to not be a localization. Plus it gets the general meaning across to a western audience. But what about the original cultural meaning? What about the very different nonverbal body movements that come about from saying a single word instead of a sentence (really multiple sentences if you're giving grace properly). Even the lack of movement for a certain length of time is communication and it matters.

There is a reason why transliteration exists and people make fun of it, but there's a reason why English has so many borrowed words from other languages that are unchanged. Sometimes meaning is best conveyed by keeping a word unadulterated. Moving out for a bit, this is seen a lot in American slang already. Most slang is taken from minority groups in the States. A lot of it is African American vernacular that's a year or so old. Yet, when it makes this leap into the zeitgeist, often it's cultural meaning and origins are completely lost. This continues on when a word hits the global stage. Speaking as a Black American words can't describe the frustration in going abroad, feeling invisible or alien because of how marginalized Black cultures in countries. Like America are (both leading to many Black Americans not going abroad and media that the US creates not being reflective of how diverse the country is), and yet hearing words originally coined within African American vernacular that has lost their cultural meaning entirely. Not because the word themselves have been changed, but because how they are used and in what context has been changed. And it goes on and on. I could discuss (not even debate) language for eons based on literally a single university course and some personal experience. Imagine people who are actually in the field.

Specifically looking at this instance, slang is DIFFICULT to translate. Really, really difficult. They are practically all "in the moment" meanings that only actually exist on a cultural level. Some stick. Most have a shorter half life than... something with a really short half life (idk, I'm not a scientist). People have a hard time defining them within the language that exist (more and more don't even exist in a single language like with the rise of Spanglish in the US). You're immediately out of official dictionary translation territory. In fact the actual experts in translation are the ones in the age group who needs their own language's slang explained to them. Language is incredibly rapid in its evolution and yet also slow with those rapid developments so short lived. The best you can do is try and match meaning with some equalivalent slang word or try to create a new slang word by replicating how the slang word was formed in the other language. Japanese slang is particularly interesting because I'm going to be blunt and say that Japan is really behind on matters of global cultural diversity and how language is related to it and how deriving meaning from language and communication is something in of itself. English education in Japan isn't great. How they approach it leads to so SO much loss of meaning on both ends (as in the way Japan has normalized official translations of their own language has harmed cultural exchange for us in the west; it also very obviously harms cultural exchange from west to Japan and communication itself). That in of itself is something that says a lot of cultural and the reality of Japan (it is still a very closed off country that is still trying to navigate how to change that; calling any group a monolith comes with a great big asterisk, but Japan is a lot more homogenous than many other developed countries). It further becomes something we have to navigate as people that consume content from Japan. (I'll also say it's interesting as the country itself has a language that developed trying to balance taking Kanji from Chinese, developing hiragana as a common tongue to encourage the importance of language and written art among lower classes, and added katakana on top of that to create phonetic transliterations of borrowed and new words (like Pikachu is in Katakana)). It sounds stupid, but you'd be shocked at how much the distinction between Anime and Cartoon has on how people form thoughts and what those thoughts are regarding a certain media. I'd really encourage people to go to Japan, if they can and just talk with all the people who desperately want to speak English with you. You'll find so many roadblocks because how we tackle translation itself changes how we think about things from other cultures. I'd say Anime is seen as more of a distinct medium or style in the states as compared to cartoons. In Japan it's all just Anime. Semantics matter. They matter so so much. They arguably matter more than the words themselves. And translations garble them six ways to Sunday.

This is all to say it does "matter" (I'll retract that a little in a bit, but don't worry about that). It's not some weeb nonsense and there's nothing that grinds my gears more than people saying that. Language is complicated. I'll throw my thoughts out there and remind people that transliteration exists and is a perfectly acceptable form of enabling communication while trying to maintain original meaning. Romaji isn't Japanese (well not technically). Heck, scholars debate on the proper romanization of many Japanese words. It's a phonetic transliteration. Going back to いただきます there is a difference in using the hiragana or romaji. There's also a difference in saying 頂きます (though that's way out of my wheelhouse). Kanji itself has distinct Chinese and Japanese readings and have meanings that change based on context and usage that isn't really conveyed in a complete hiragana writing and definitely isn't in romaji.

There's no perfect answer and to the translators, yeah it realistically doesn't matter. You aren't going to please everyone in the world and honestly one route isn't even easier than the other (especially as you're dealing with two different slangs which already warp grammar rules a bit in their respective languages). Again, I like transliteration in moments like this. You can even subject a transliterated word to the grammar conventions of the language you're using it in (like there's no such thing as capitalization and possessives are handled very differently in Japanese, but that doesn't stop us for writing "Pikachu's trainer..."). But ya'll can also ignore me. Really you'll not find a way to please everyone (and upholding doing two versions isn't worth the effort). At the end of the day none of us are those scholars who specialized in this subject and have dedicated their lives to discussing these issues. The group that's translating this is doing a free service (with optional donations to support) to make media more widely available. That's fantastic no matter what. My only issue with all the comments trying to dismiss the wider issue and complex nature of language.

Got the felling that you right and wrong at the same time. Well this is life in itself so i just take it like this.
I am not educated enough to debate about it anyway.

 

[PreStoneX]

I explained why it was awful and you dismissed it out of hand with an "Okay dude" in the other thread.

I dismissed it because you were very rude about it, even though you should've seen all the other comments beforehand, like why comment at that point in such a rude way? And now you're bringing it here like your point was such a good one.

You said fave doesn't mean anything, but that's false because in english fave is often used to describe someone's favorite celebrity, idol, or artist, which is similar to how 'oshi' is used in Japanese. (fave = favorite)

I do agree oshi has more cultural nuance, but translations should always try to balance clarity and accessibility for a wider audience, yet you're acting like it was such a bad thing to do it on our part. Some terms inevitably lose depth, there will always be things that can't be captured perfectly in english, but keeping everything in Japanese can also create barriers for readers unfamiliar with the language... (just in case; when I said "everything", I didn't mean the whole text itself, but these words like oshi)

As for the notes; the note was not for explaining what fave means, it was to explain what word was used so people understand why was it translated that way. I think the context a note is used in is very important, but I guess it depends on the person's preference how they feel about the notes.

Anyway, you have probably read this chapter, and seen the word Oshi was used both as a noun AND as a verb, so once again, was the translation really that awful?

 

[Aono_kun]

I think fave is fine but oshi is better. Couple of my thoughts on your previous comment, if you care to read it.

I do agree oshi has more cultural nuance, but translations should always try to balance clarity and accessibility for a wider audience, yet you're acting like it was such a bad thing to do it on our part.

I don't think that should be the goal of translation. That is the job of localisation. Translation should try to translate what it can and what it can't translate should be explained in a translator's note. Localisation's job is to try and remove barriers to understand a work. As an example honorifics like "-san". A translation should keep them, as there is no good translation for some of them. A localisation shouldn't keep them, as in most cases English does not contain equivalents. In the case of usage of "-san" by subordinate towards their boss, or between two colleagues, it's correct to localise it as Mr./Ms. In comparison let's take the Title "イジらないで、長瀞さん". A translation should keep the "さん" part only writing as "-san", while a localisation should drop it completely. The official localisation is incorrect (localising it as Miss) as children in English speaking countries, to my knowledge, do not call other children Miss or Mister, even in high school.

As for the notes; the note was not for explaining what fave means, it was to explain what word was used so people understand why was it translated that way. I think the context a note is used in is very important, but I guess it depends on the person's preference how they feel about the notes.

I think TNs are a needed tool for translation to explain things that can't be translated. Yes we all know the meme of "All according to Keikaku (TN: Keikaku means plan)" but they can warrant their existence in cases where a translation does not exist. For example explaining the "oshi=push" joke.

Some terms inevitably lose depth, there will always be things that can't be captured perfectly in english, but keeping everything in Japanese can also create barriers for readers unfamiliar with the language... (just in case; when I said "everything", I didn't mean the whole text itself, but these words like oshi)

And here I have to ask are you/your team translator or localisers? Both are fine things to be but it's important to keep this in mind for yourself what the goal of your work is and to set expectation for your readers. If I read a localisation I expect honorifics to be dropped while I would expect the same in a translation.

Overall I quite like reading your work and I hope you continue.

 

[Roriipupper]

HIS BDAY IS ALSO FEB 6??!

 

[PreStoneX]

I think fave is fine but oshi is better. Couple of my thoughts on your previous comment, if you care to read it.

I don't think that should be the goal of translation. That is the job of localisation. Translation should try to translate what it can and what it can't translate should be explained in a translator's note. Localisation's job is to try and remove barriers to understand a work. As an example honorifics like "-san". A translation should keep them, as there is no good translation for some of them. A localisation shouldn't keep them, as in most cases English does not contain equivalents. In the case of usage of "-san" by subordinate towards their boss, or between two colleagues, it's correct to localise it as Mr./Ms. In comparison let's take the Title "イジらないで、長瀞さん". A translation should keep the "さん" part only writing as "-san", while a localisation should drop it completely. The official localisation is incorrect (localising it as Miss) as children in English speaking countries, to my knowledge, do not call other children Miss or Mister, even in high school.

I think TNs are a needed tool for translation to explain things that can't be translated. Yes we all know the meme of "All according to Keikaku (TN: Keikaku means plan)" but they can warrant their existence in cases where a translation does not exist. For example explaining the "oshi=push" joke.

And here I have to ask are you/your team translator or localisers? Both are fine things to be but it's important to keep this in mind for yourself what the goal of your work is and to set expectation for your readers. If I read a localisation I expect honorifics to be dropped while I would expect the same in a translation.

Overall I quite like reading your work and I hope you continue.

Sorry, but I think this is a very rigid way of thinking. You seem overly strict about the distinction between translation and localization, and tbh that misses the point.

First of all, yes we’re translators (me too), and not localizers, and we do this for fun... but doing it for fun doesn’t mean we don’t take our work seriously or lack a sense of responsibility when it comes to translating. Saying "we can’t translate something in a certain way because that’s a localizer’s job" just doesn’t sit right.

Translation is always about context and audience.

In our case, we translate for everyone, be it for casual readers, or for people deeply into anime/manga or fandom culture. This means we want to keep the text faithful yet understandable, so everyone feels included. Assuming that every reader knows what 'oshi' means feels inconsiderate, even a bit selfish. For example, on our Discord server a few readers mentioned they didn’t know what 'oshi' meant and actually preferred the 1st version over the 2nd.

Also, in this chapter 'oshi' was used as part of a wordplay, with Otaku-kun misunderstanding it as push. Keeping it as oshi would have completely lost the humor and alienated casual readers even more... Slapping on a TLN and calling it a day doesn’t solve the problem. We prioritized clarity and intent over sticking rigidly to untranslated terms, but yeah, I just didn't know some people will have such a big problem with not keeping oshi lol

Still, is it really so hard to understand that making things understandable is a valid and important part of translating?

 

[GreC_89]

@Aono_kun not related to overall discussion, but mentioning word 'Localizer' every time triggers big PTSD

Spoiler: PTSD sample

 

[Nilinor]

-snip-

I do feel a lot of it is pseudo-linquists that know a few words and get upset cause others dont so its changed to make it better for casual enjoyers.

I kinda hope people would understand that a 1:1 translation is not possible all the time, especially when references are used as the most common thing that would change (like using a more familiar reference for western audiences that gets the same point across).

Even going far enough to have 2 versions for the people that are complaining is going above and beyond. I wouldn't have done that and just left it with an interpretation that everyone could understand.

 

[Aono_kun]

Fist thanks for responding when you don't have to.

Secondly I don't think your use of fave is bad, I personally would have chosen oshi. I personally have never encountered someone using fave, so I would file it away under archaic/esoteric slang and thanks to idol culture coming to the west (e.g. VTubers) oshi would be filed there as well. In that case I personally would chose the word that can potentially teach someone a bit about a different culture. But that by no means should imply that fave is wrong here.

I hope you can indulge me in picking your brains a bit. Perfectly fine if you don't have/want to use your time on this. I'm curious on how you(an active translator) thinks about these things. This is not to attack you but only to understand.

Sorry, but I think this is a very rigid way of thinking. You seem overly strict about the distinction between translation and localization, and tbh that misses the point.

Then how are you able to draw a line between yourself(translators) and others(localisers)?

First of all, yes we’re translators (me too), and not localizers,

There must be a difference between the two, if you differentiate yourself from them.

and we do this for fun... but doing it for fun doesn’t mean we don’t take our work seriously or lack a sense of responsibility when it comes to translating.

I agree, just because you do something for fun/free doesn't mean it should be taken serious but it also means it's not above being critiqued/questioned.

Saying "we can’t translate something in a certain way because that’s a localizer’s job" just doesn’t sit right.

Translation is always about context and audience.

In our case, we translate for everyone, be it for casual readers, or for people deeply into anime/manga or fandom culture.

But if you break down not just language based barriers but culture barriers than that is a localisation in my eyes. In my eyes translation is a tool to allow someone to learn about a different culture, while localisation is more on the side of engaging with the work itself and the intent of the author, outside of the culture it comes from. Obviously both are sliding scales.

This means we want to keep the text faithful yet understandable, so everyone feels included. Assuming that every reader knows what 'oshi' means feels inconsiderate, even a bit selfish.

Would the same not also go for honorifics or Otaku-kun's nickname? Or did you only keep them because the previous group kept them?

For example, on our Discord server a few readers mentioned they didn’t know what 'oshi' meant and actually preferred the 1st version over the 2nd.

I'm certain there are, and I reiterate here that I do not think that fave is wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's a good translation. A lot of people prefer the Ghost Kids dub but we can all agree that It's a horrible translation/localisation.

Also, in this chapter 'oshi' was used as part of a wordplay, with Otaku-kun misunderstanding it as push. Keeping it as oshi would have completely lost the humor and alienated casual readers even more... Slapping on a TLN and calling it a day doesn’t solve the problem.

It doesn't solve that problem, yes. But that is also not the problem the TLN is trying to solve. The problem it's trying to solve is a missing understanding of culture not the experience of the joke.

We prioritized clarity and intent over sticking rigidly to untranslated terms, but yeah, I just didn't know some people will have such a big problem with not keeping oshi lol

I agree it happens a lot that what you think is nothing major turns out to be a huge issue for some people.

Still, is it really so hard to understand that making things understandable is a valid and important part of translating?

I don't think that is the hard part to understand but more what you are trying to make understandable, the culture through a work(translation) or the work despite culture(localisation). I don't think either are wrong, both have there uses.

What would you/your team do if Takuya and Amane weren't into Kiramon but instead into a super sentai knock-off? Would you keep it as is and hope that people already know, put a TLN on it to explain what super sentai is, or translate it to some Power Rangers pun?

One last question away from Japan. How would you deal with "Siesta"? Keep it as is, put a TLN on it, or translate the word to something like "midday nap" or "midday break"?

If you decide to answer any of these question and even if you don't, I thank you for your time. And again I don't think what you are doing is wrong or bad. Trying to allow more people to experience a work is admirable especially because you do it for free and you take it seriously enough that you are willing to listen to your readers. I hope this whole situation didn't sour it for you. This obviously also goes for the rest of your team.

@GreC_89 Yeah localisation got a bad rep in recent times. Well not really recent times, but people didn't what to call the stuff 4kids did or even that 4kids change anything in the first place. Localisation has it's uses to allow people to engage with a work even if they are unfamiliar with the original culture.