How About R15? - Vol. 2 Ch. 11 - Akine's Rebellion

[moblinsecret]

Brother, I have no time for strawmen. If you're going to pretend I'm stupid, I'm just letting the exchange die here.

I said "Obviously that's not what you mean" but I guess you didn't read past that one sentence you quoted. Or maybe you just don't have any reply against my actual argument, with the examples with the pronouns? A weak way to write off my whole paragraph when you don't even address the main point I make. (Hmm, what lowbrow debating technique does that sound like?)

Here's how it is: you said, and I quote, "I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error." You applied this to the use of "fuck" in Amou's line. I applied it to the use of "you" in another line. So tell me, which of these is your stance?
a) Your statement is wrong, as it is currently stated. Did you intend to say something different to the exact words you wrote?
b) Your application of your statement was wrong.
c) Your application of your statement was correct, and my application was wrong. Please enlighten me as to how I am supposed to know when it is and isn't applicable from your "definition of a translation error" only.
d) Both applications of your statement are correct. Saying "Have you no manners" is incorrect, and it should be something more like "Are there no manners".
e) None of the above. I'd like to know what case I could have missed.

Yeah. You think that you need people to swear to mark the speech as impolite for some reason, even though, for example, she's in her mom's face shouting at the top of her lungs in an obvious fight.

So now you claim I say something I didn't. Not once did I say that swear words were needed. I only ever said that they were appropriate. I did say that they were the best choice in this situation, and based on the new information I have now learnt on what the original text was, I think I take that back. But I never at any point said, or implied, that that was the only way to translate it. Did it seem that way to you?

And this is the point I'm trying to make about your original comment: your immediate dismissal of the translation as wrong because of the use of a swear word is using an arbitrary rule that hinders translation.

You haven't been paying attention, and I've already explained what the problem is. Read through the exchange over again and ask questions if you're still not getting what I'm saying.

Alright, so your point is that she isn't the type of character to swear, ever. Is that it?
Well, maybe you're wrong, maybe you're right. I have seen plenty of people who will never swear, except when they blow their top - maybe she's one of them, maybe she isn't. Who can say when there are no swear words in Japanese?

But it seems to me that you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. Read the line you quoted again.
Your immediate dismissal of the translation as wrong because of the use of a swear word is using an arbitrary rule that hinders translation.
You think I'm trying to convince you that Amou might say fuck. I'm not. I'm pushing the point that marking the translation as an error is wrong.
If you'd used her personality as your main reason for your disagreement with the translator's use of "fuck", I wouldn't have complained and gone on my rant about formality in different languages. My gripe is not with your decision, but your justification.
My point is that your stringent translation rules like "fuck is wrong because Japanese doesn't have swear words", or worse, "it's wrong if it has words that weren't there in the original" are arbitrary, needlessly restrictive and obstructing the conveying of intent behind words, rather than just meaning. I'm fine if a translator chooses never to use swear words in a translation. But the way you treat it like it's a factual error is what I disagree with, because it perpetuates these false conceptions, that your judgement comes from a universal rule and not a guideline based on other factors.
If you're going to complain about the use of swear words, justify it based on the genre of the material, the intended target audience, and the like. Say it's inappropriate, not that it's incorrect. Stop giving anyone else the impression that "fuck" is wrong for grammatical reasons.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

I said "Obviously that's not what you mean" but I guess you didn't read past that one sentence you quoted.

That is correct. If you know that's "obviously not what I mean", then don't waste time typing it out. My eyes just glaze over and I move on to the next block of text. I do, believe it or not, have better things to do than read and respond to random shit I didn't even say.

So tell me, which of these is your stance?

I'll make this easy for you:
1) She didn't say it: The obvious place to start with a translation is what the characters say. No amount of "But it's supes apropo" gives clearance to, say, throw a meme into the dialogue.
2) She couldn't say it: You have to consider whether the language even allows for certain dialogue. If the answer is yes, then it's the final nail in the coffin against your bizarre insistence on altering the dialogue, since the character made a conscious decision not to say something else.
3) She wouldn't say it: The meek, sheltered girl, wouldn't know that kind of language, wouldn't use it in general, wouldn't direct it at her mom, and wouldn't direct it at her mom repeatedly, even if she were speaking English the whole time!

Want an example of a good "fuck"? It would be Page 7 of Rabukome Quest, Chapter 6. A rude, explicitly evil character, using the most aggressive, derogatory language after losing her patience with a blabbermouth. By god, if she could tell someone to shut the fuck up in Japanese, she would have.

Want an example of a bad "fuck"? A sheltered girl who didn't even change her manner of speaking having her first fight with her mom over movies.
I've told you this before. You didn't listen/understand.

So now you claim I say something I didn't. Not once did I say that swear words were needed. I only ever said that they were appropriate. I did say that they were the best choice in this situation, and based on the new information I have now learnt on what the original text was, I think I take that back.

It's not appropriate, it was never appropriate. The only way I imagine you thinking it is is if you're not very familiar with how dialogue tends to work in the language.

But I never at any point said, or implied, that that was the only way to translate it. Did it seem that way to you?

No. I didn't assume you were retarded.

Alright, so your point is that she isn't the type of character to swear, ever. Is that it?

It's the entire premise of the manga: She's sheltered and can barely stand to do anything PG, much less break her shell and cuss her mom out. The most we would expect, assuming she even tries, are minced oaths.

Who can say when there are no swear words in Japanese?

Me. And there are, they're just not used like this, in this context. And definitely not by this kind of person directed at that kind of person. Sentence Enhancers are not a feature of the Japanese language.

Your immediate dismissal of the translation as wrong because of the use of a swear word is using an arbitrary rule that hinders translation.

You have no idea what my rule is. And I hope you're not a translator, because whatever your rule is, it's bad.

If you're going to complain about the use of swear words, justify it based on the genre of the material, the intended target audience, and the like. Say it's inappropriate, not that it's incorrect. Stop giving anyone else the impression that "fuck" is wrong for grammatical reasons.

It's wrong because it's wrong.

 

[Kafka]

Sigh... Just to be absolutely clear how this went down and avoid further drama, here's the whole discord conversation I had with @BenBou of UnhingedTranslations today regarding this "snipe":

Y'all can formulate your opinions with the whole context now.

In my personal opinion, unrelated with MD's views, anyone can work on whatever they want how they want to.

Cheers!

[Edit:]
(Since the chapter .1 chapter was deleted because it breaks MD rules, here's what they had to say about this convo):

And to reiterate, I don't feel an apology to anyone is needed.
Cheers x2!

 

[mtfunky]

How old this mom if she’s cosplaying a movie from 2005 (presumably under 18 as a ‘chuunibyou’?)

 

[KazuyaKan]

These "sniping" dramas always reminds me of the old A-Team scanlators when they were working on Sekirei.

The series had already ended in Japan for a couple of years, and A-Team was woefully behind since they released erratically, at times (though rarely) a chapter a week, to months between chapters. It was one of those periods of having not released a chapter in about 3, going on 4 months, that someone else picked the series up and released about a chapter a day for a couple of days (I believe it was 3 total), and had a number more chapters being worked on to release at regular weekly intervals, which they also managed to release 1 week after. Great, maybe we the readers would finally see the end in a couple of months instead of who knows when (if ever) waiting on A-Team.

Only problem was suddenly A-Team came from out of hibernation and started crying about being "sniped" and how they had those chapters ready but just didn't post them cause they forgot/weren't able due to circumstances/blah blah blah/yada yada yada/wah wah wah...

They promised to release at a regular rate and sure enough, the same chapters that were already uploaded by the other group, was uploaded all at once by A-Team and they continued to release more at a weekly pace. For 1 week and then they went into hibernation again....

If I remember right, the last scanlated chapter of Sekerei was released something like 5 or 6 years after it ended. This wasn't the only instance (or group) that such a similar situation occurred.

I'm with Kafka. Anyone can work on anything they like. I don't believe in "sniping"; not that one shouldn't do it, but that no one owns the series except the creator and publisher(s). So no one can call "dibs" on a series just because they were first, or they release the fastest, or they're the most accurate, or they have the best raws, or <insert your own reason for gatekeeping a series from others working on it>. Either group should be free to scanlate this series. If you as the reader don't like one group for whatever reason, block them in your personal blocklist. You have that option. But don't try to block them from posting at all cause of "waaahhhh - sniping!" It doesn't exist.

 

[saltysweet]

yes!!!! go speak up for yourself queen

 

[moblinsecret]

I am not arguing about what Amou said. I am arguing about what you said, @BuyVelomobiles.
Do you want me to say you're right about Amou's personality? Sure, I can do that. I can cede that point. But you've ignored my point.

Here's how it is: you said, and I quote, "I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error." You applied this to the use of "fuck" in Amou's line. I applied it to the use of "you" in another line. So tell me, which of these is your stance?

a) Your statement is wrong, as it is currently stated. Did you intend to say something different to the exact words you wrote?
b) Your application of your statement was wrong.
c) Your application of your statement was correct, and my application was wrong. Please enlighten me as to how I am supposed to know when it is and isn't applicable from your "definition of a translation error" only.
d) Both applications of your statement are correct. Saying "Have you no manners" is incorrect, and it should be something more like "Are there no manners".
e) None of the above. I'd like to know what case I could have missed.

I'll make this easy for you:
1) She didn't say it: The obvious place to start with a translation is what the characters say. No amount of "But it's supes apropo" gives clearance to, say, throw a meme into the dialogue.
2) She couldn't say it: You have to consider whether the language even allows for certain dialogue. If the answer is yes, then it's the final nail in the coffin against your bizarre insistence on altering the dialogue, since the character made a conscious decision not to say something else.
3) She wouldn't say it: The meek, sheltered girl, wouldn't know that kind of language, wouldn't use it in general, wouldn't direct it at her mom, and wouldn't direct it at her mom repeatedly, even if she were speaking English the whole time!

You haven't answered my question. You just wrote a paragraph and put it underneath a quote of my question to pretend you've answered it.
Stop going on about Amou's personality and read my question, for goodness's sake. In case the logic wasn't clear, I'll spell it out as some yes-no questions this time:
1) Do you stand by your statement "I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error."?
2) Do you stand by the use of the statement to Amou's line?
3) Is my application of the statement to "Have you no manners" correct?
Answer the questions.

Want an example of a good "fuck"? It would be Page 7 of Rabukome Quest, Chapter 6. A rude, explicitly evil character, using the most aggressive, derogatory language after losing her patience with a blabbermouth. By god, if she could tell someone to shut the fuck up in Japanese, she would have.

Thank you for the example, because it proves you're wrong. You said "TL error #1: the Japanese don't use "fuck", or any equivalent to it."

You have no idea what my rule is. And I hope you're not a translator, because whatever your rule is, it's bad.

I deduced what "rules" you're applying based on these sentences you said. Sentences that I am vehemently opposing.

• TL error #1: the Japanese don't use "fuck", or any equivalent to it.
• I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error.

You've also given reasons based on Amou's personality. I am not arguing about that part.

The debate about whether it's appropriate due to Amou's personality is over. I'm willing to accept your points about how she isn't one to swear. But if you bring it up again it shows you're not willing to engage with my actual argument.
Talk about these two statements you made, for once.

• TL error #1: the Japanese don't use "fuck", or any equivalent to it.
• I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

You haven't answered my question. You just wrote a paragraph and put it underneath a quote of my question to pretend you've answered it.

No, I've just ignored your question and explained the rule, then gave you an example of a good "fuck" to illustrate the point.

1) Do you stand by your statement "I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error."?

I don't see why I wouldn't stand by something I said.

2) Do you stand by the use of the statement to Amou's line?

The statement to Amou's line? You mean if I think it's bad that they made her say something she didn't say? Yes.

3) Is my application of the statement to "Have you no manners" correct?

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm guessing it's in that block of text I ignored at the start. The one I "Obviously don't mean"

Thank you for the example, because it proves you're wrong. You said "TL error #1: the Japanese don't use "fuck", or any equivalent to it."

That's my work, bud. All it shows is that you're not paying attention to the rule, even when I lay it out for you in bullet points and give you an example of the rule in action, with an explanation of its application. Re-read all of this until it makes sense, because you're either too dumb, or too stubborn to get what I'm saying.

I deduced what "rules" you're applying based on these sentences you said. Sentences that I am vehemently opposing.

I don't see why you're "deducing" the rules when I literally laid them out for you. Leave deduction to smarter people.

But if you bring it up again it shows you're not willing to engage with my actual argument.

Your argument is a strawman. I engaged that ages ago by calling it a strawman, then went on to clarify. You're still fighting a straw man.

 

[Cashini]

lol wutttt constatine chuunibyou
i'm shock what japanese thinking about scifi western
but yeah strange her mother even funny XD too. her mother for protech her child but if too strict isn't good too, watching adult movies must be the role of parents accompanying and educated too their sons and daughters to watch

 

[moblinsecret]

Your argument is a strawman. I engaged that ages ago by calling it a strawman, then went on to clarify. You're still fighting a straw man.

Huh. It seems that in all our shouting at each other, I've failed to notice something important. And that is that you actually agree with me!
I've been attacking your two statements (here we go, let's copy paste them once more)

• TL error #1: the Japanese don't use "fuck", or any equivalent to it.
• I would classify "they wrote something the characters didn't say" as precisely the definition of a translation error.

And you haven't been facing my attacks, choosing to try to push my focus back onto your argument about Amou's personality. Now, you've clarified it: I had been attacking straw men all along. What does this mean? It means you admit it! You agree that those two statements are weak and crumble at the slightest push; they're not worth defending, as you've shown by not bothering to defend them! The debate is settled!
Oh, but there's one thing, one small last disagreement I have.

I don't see why I wouldn't stand by something I said.

No. You've abandoned those two statements you made. So say it out loud. Say that you don't stand by them. Stop hiding behind your cries of "strawman" and "you're not getting what I'm saying", and retract your statement.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Huh. It seems that in all our shouting at each other, I've failed to notice something important. And that is that you actually agree with me!

Whatever helps you sleep at night. It's obvious you're either not interested in listening, or not capable of understanding. Either way, I've explained everything repeatedly, and it's not sticking. Read over everything again if you have any questions.

 

[moblinsecret]

Whatever helps you sleep at night. It's obvious you're either not interested in listening, or not capable of understanding. Either way, I've explained everything repeatedly, and it's not sticking. Read over everything again if you have any questions.

Sigh, I was a fool for believing you would ever let up. Did you see the bit where I said "Stop hiding behind your cries of "strawman" and "you're not getting what I'm saying" "?
I'll give you credit, you didn't say "strawman" this time. But you're still screaming "you're not getting what I'm saying".

Well, I suppose that it's pointless to argue against each other if we don't understand what points the other person is making, or the crux of their argument. So let me try to show I do understand.
Here's what I think is the core of your argument, summarised. I'm basing this off of the section you prefaced with "I'll make this easy for you" in comment #62.
The current translation of Amou's line as "Don't fuck with me" is wrong, because 1) that's not the meaning of the line, 2) the Japanese language cannot fit a swear into this line due to not having sentence enhancers, and 3) Amou is not the kind of person to use swear words, ever, due to her meek personality & her strict upbringing.
How's that?

Are you fed up with me because I've done nothing to address the core of your argument?
Well, the reason I've done nothing to address the core of your argument is this: you are trying to justify that "Don't fuck with me" is wrong. I have no interest in whether "Don't fuck with me" is wrong.
I have tried to say this before. See the following quotes from my previous replies:

I am not arguing about what Amou said. I am arguing about what you said

You think I'm trying to convince you that Amou might say fuck. I'm not.

Anyway, it's your turn now. Please summarise the core of my argument. I'll be kinder - if there's something you don't understand, feel free to ask and I'll try to explain.

p.s. if you don't do this simple comprehension exercise, it's obvious you're either not interested in listening, or not capable of understanding.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Sigh, I was a fool for believing you would ever let up.

You were fool for not listening. There's nothing more to hash out. Read over our previous posts until you understand what I'm saying. You're the only one with this problem here.

 

[SUPER7X]

Sniping is not real. Scanlators do not have rights to series (unless they're creator-endorsed). I'm sorry many of you have brainworms. Glad Kafka gets it.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Sniping is not real. Scanlators do not have rights to series (unless they're creator-endorsed). I'm sorry many of you have brainworms. Glad Kafka gets it.

Totally is real. And following the trend of snipes, it's of inferior quality to the original group's work. If it keeps up, we risk losing said work altogether.

 

[SUPER7X]

If it keeps up, we risk losing said work altogether.

What the fuck does this mean? You have no right to the work. This is all piracy.

 

[StuckInHole]

Message for DFL: if your release schedule is that messed up that you’re slow enough to be behind on chapters, you don’t really get to complain about “sniping” when someone who’s actually willing to put in the work picks it up, none of you scanlators even have the rights for these properties to begin with, you guys aren’t the ones who gets to decide who gets to work on it. Don’t wanna get “sniped”? Stick to the schedule. You people are pathetic.

 

[themanthemyth]

kafka i would appreciate if you did put more time in translating this faster given the demand i would have really liked someone else to pick this up if this pace will continue as it is

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

What the fuck does this mean? You have no right to the work. This is all piracy.

You have no right to the contents of your shopping cart, but I feel like you'd complain quite a bit if I went and took it all from you and bought it myself.

 

[SUPER7X]

You have no right to the contents of your shopping cart, but I feel like you'd complain quite a bit if I went and took it all from you and bought it myself.

Potentially the most retarded analogy I've ever come across.