Indictment of the Iron Cross - Oneshot
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I read this wondering what a Japanese author would write for the title "indictment of the iron cross". Didn't really help that the first page was a German talking about the achievements of the Third Reich; figured this would be a glorification.
Then that page showing the Holocaust victims showed that the author was portraying the Nazis as evil as they were. Looking through the author's work, this is a standalone arc for a series he writes for. I'm considering checking it out given how tactfully he takes this premise here.
Then that page showing the Holocaust victims showed that the author was portraying the Nazis as evil as they were. Looking through the author's work, this is a standalone arc for a series he writes for. I'm considering checking it out given how tactfully he takes this premise here.
I don’t know if I’d call it tactful. It’s certainly slightly more complex than the average japanese mangaka portrayal of Nazi Germany (sharply dressed men in black doing military things), but it’s mostly a portrayal of the Good German being a victim of circumstances, and this dude wasn’t exactly a guy working at the Post Office.
Oh, and the notion that the human experimentation at concentration camps brought any relevant scientific advancement is deeply flawed, if we’re being charitable. It’s idiotic if we’re not.
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@dw123456 this 4 chapter series makes the SS guard into a more complex villain in that he has DID. Having alters is a cop-out for sure, but you can't say that the guy is as responsible as another SS soldier at a concentration camp.
I'm not entirely educated in this, so it's entirely hearsay, but the effects of hypothermia on the human body was documented and used for further medical knowledge. How they got it is sickening, but there was medical advancement. Not that it absolves the crime against humanity.
I'm not entirely educated in this, so it's entirely hearsay, but the effects of hypothermia on the human body was documented and used for further medical knowledge. How they got it is sickening, but there was medical advancement. Not that it absolves the crime against humanity.
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No doubt he got hitler in him too. 
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I don't mean to be rude but this exchange was... difficult to read. A lot of it seems to be based in misunderstanding.
To respond to a couple of key points, namely:
"Didn't really help that the first page was a German talking about the achievements of the Third Reich; figured this would be a glorification."
"Oh, and the notion that the human experimentation at concentration camps brought any relevant scientific advancement is deeply flawed, if we’re being charitable. It’s idiotic if we’re not."
"I'm not entirely educated in this, so it's entirely hearsay, but the effects of hypothermia on the human body was documented and used for further medical knowledge. How they got it is sickening, but there was medical advancement. Not that it absolves the crime against humanity."
The sequence starts with the audience already with the assumption that they understand the terror of Nazi Germany.
Helmut is bringing up the duality not normalizing or "glorifying" what Nazi Germany did,
but struggling that what helped Germany bounce back in the post-war ties to the terrible things they did.
He goes out of way to clarify this, precisely because he knows it could be taken as him saying
"Oh, there was some good from the Nazi's see!" to highlight his own anxiety and turmoil,
tying to his father's "shadow" that even his gentle good natured father,
in reality had done many of the terrible things every other Nazi did.
Of course, Duke could care less. He just wants the details of the
target asap. It's important to keep in mind the sort of exchanges
Duke has with his clients, and the kind of demeanor and personality
they display when they're around him. Sometimes they're honest,
sometimes haughty, sometimes brown nosy, etc.
There's nothing wrong with addressing technicalities, for example,
if certain pieces of information are incorrect, like medical advances
being tied to the experimentation at the concentration camps, it's
our job as readers to relay this to the mangaka to ensure the information is correct
at all times. But the tone was rather dismissive, and doesn't necessarily undermine the
point that there's an ugliness in having an advancement be tied to cruelty and horror.
It looms over your head, and instead of being proud of it gnaws at you.
Also, "It’s certainly slightly more complex than the average Japanese mangaka portrayal of Nazi Germany (sharply
dressed men in black doing military things)"
What manga have you read that gave you that impression? Every manga
I've read about Nazi Germany portrays them like every other country does.
This comment left me a bit dumbfounded. My apologies if this sounds a bit rude.
"...but it’s mostly a portrayal of the Good German being a
victim of circumstances, and this dude wasn’t exactly a guy
working at the Post Office."
"this 4 chapter series makes the SS guard into a more complex villain in that he has DID. Having alters is a cop-out for sure, but you can't say that the guy is as responsible as another SS soldier at a concentration camp."
This misses the point, but this exchange is one I imagine many in
Japan had when they read it. The point is that despite everything
he had done or had happened he can at least be free from the shackles
of his past, which is what Hans is supposed to represent. It doesn't
absolve him of anything of what Hans, or rather, what he did at all.
It's to show that Heinz is truly a changed man, unlike the monster he was before.
But I imagine Saito thought that he ended up communicating
something differently, maybe he even felt it communicated the opposite.
Which leads to one other fact you gentlemen should consider.
The chapter is sealed. Sealed meaning that it is not collected.
No edition of Golgo, be it tankobon or Kazenban has it.
Likely for what I mentioned above. I'd also highlight Saito potentially
wasn't fond of the portrayal of DID, though that is merely my conjecture.
Mangaka, Japan I should say, are very sensitive to the portrayal of mental illnesses
and disabilities. To the point some manga (even from Osamu Tezuka, like
Yokai Detective Agency) that are said to have "problematic portrayals" of
Mental Health are left out of print or given one more printing and that's that.
To stay on topic, in Japan I imagine it also didn't sit well with a lot of the Big Comic
readers seeing Duke in a SS outfit. Amusing to consider given that Duke has
done and said some rather extreme things depending on the circumstances.
One quote of his that always gets to me is "I'd rather take a white man's whip than
a black man's orders". Which can catch anyone off guard when out of context.
I normally avoid commenting online, but to see this being said about Saito of all mangaka, it didn't sit right with me.
Take care gents.
The opening argument is idiotic because nothing of what Nazi Germany did helped Germany prop itself back up after the war. The vast majority of the recovery effort was funded by the US in order to stabilise Europe and create a bulwark against Soviet Russia. The mangaka presents the argument through a mouthpiece but makes no effort to debunk it or provide a character to point out how ridiculous it sounds. That’s up to the readers, and here we are.
Heinz is not a “truly changed man” because all of the story is presented in a way that excuses and minimises his participation in the Nazi genocide operation. He’s a mostly passive witness who’s only there to “oversee” and comment on the death surrounding him but I don’t see any admission of guilt. Even the dual personality can be read as an excuse (it wasn’t really me, it was a split personality). Again, if I’m being charitable, he would show up at the Hague and be a stereotypical example of the banality of evil. You reading this as a tale of redemption is a little left-of-field.
All of this ties very nicely with my previous points on Japan’s portrayal of Nazi Germany and its own war crimes. We see concentration camp victims and vague gesticulations of “damn that sucked”, but the only real culprit is quickly dealt with as a convenient scapegoat, leaving Heinz to be free of his sins (except not really).
Most portrayals in Japan of its own warcrimes are very similar. Lots of sympathetic noises regarding victims but no clear national admissions of collective guilt.
If you’re interested about the topic, you can research Unit 731 or the results of the war crime tribunal that judged Japan’s leadership after the war. Japan has never really processed its role in the atrocities, and this is very clear in the media it produces today.
Have a good one.
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"The opening argument is idiotic because nothing of what Nazi Germany did helped Germany prop itself back up after the war. The vast majority of the recovery effort was funded by the US in order to stabilise Europe and create a bulwark against Soviet Russia. The mangaka presents the argument through a mouthpiece but makes no effort to debunk it or provide a character to point out how ridiculous it sounds. That’s up to the readers, and here we are."
"Heinz is not a “truly changed man” because all of the story is presented in a way that excuses and minimizes his participation in the Nazi genocide operation. He’s a mostly passive witness who’s only there to “oversee” and comment on the death surrounding him but I don’t see any admission of guilt. Even the dual personality can be read as an excuse (it wasn’t really me, it was a split personality). Again, if I’m being charitable, he would show up at the Hague and be a stereotypical example of the banality of evil."
And It's fine to make that as a criticism. I explicitly said before that the chapter was sealed and it remains uncollected today probably because Big Comic readers in Japan made similar criticisms.
I do have to comment on one part of that.
"The mangaka presents the argument through a mouthpiece but makes no effort to debunk it or provide a character to point out how ridiculous it sounds. That’s up to the readers, and here we are."
That was my point. When I stated:
"But I imagine Saito thought that he ended up communicating
something differently, maybe he even felt it communicated the opposite."
"You reading this as a tale of redemption is a little left-of-field."
I never stated it was a tale of redemption. I should've communicated my point better.
"All of this ties very nicely with my previous points on Japan’s portrayal of Nazi Germany and its own war crimes. We see concentration camp victims and vague gesticulations of “damn that sucked”, but the only real culprit is quickly dealt with as a convenient scapegoat, leaving Heinz to be free of his sins (except not really)."
I don't think Heinz is free of his sins. He's free of Hans, but what he did still happened. Your approach gives me the impression that you think Saito is attempting to dance around and downplay what Nazi Germany did, when as I've mentioned before his intent was the opposite.
And again, the criticism that the arc can very easily give the impression of what you just said, that DID as a scapegoat, is a valid one. Again, it's sealed for a reason. But your dismissive attitude indicates to me that you're not taking that into account and just view Saito as "another Japanese dancing around WWII". That's the understanding I got from your comment.
And again, the manga I've read about Nazi Germany and the Imperial Japanese portray them as every other country does.
"If you’re interested about the topic, you can research Unit 731 or the results of the war crime tribunal that judged Japan’s leadership after the war. Japan has never really processed its role in the atrocities, and this is very clear in the media it produces today."
I understand this wasn't your intent but this comment was rather condescending. I've known about Unit 731 and all of the details surrounding it and the situation post-war since 10th grade in high school (which is like a prehistoric period to me at this point). I was one of those that would say "Oh, but the nukes were justified because look at what those Japanese did!". But that started to change when I became more familiar with the country, though that's a long topic for another time.
And yes, there are many tankobon released throughout the decades that cover 731 and other adjacent topics.
They're just people at the end of the day. They fully understand and have remorse for what the Imperial Japanese did, and what Nazi Germany did and that perspective does reflect in their media. They made a concerted effort to make up for everything that happened. With efforts for building bridges with China and Korea (despite a very, very tense and rocky road to it, by the 2000s things were picking up).
I reiterate my previous question, what gives you the impression that Japan "has never really processed its role in the atrocities"?
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There is nothing wrong with making the criticism that the work may contain harmful representation of horrific events, in a way that may even be seen as normalizing. But your framing gives me the impression that you were looking to dismiss it from the get-go. My explanation of the narrative elements, was to say that you should at least understand the intent, how it's represented of course is a different matter, but it's important nonetheless.
I don't want to sound accusatory but your comments, even if not your intent, communicate to me that you don't see the Japanese as people. I got the impression that you viewed them as a monolithic "other". You don't address "Indictment of the Iron Cross" based on how Saito handles it, or how Saito handles Nazis in other works of his(again, criticisms are fine), you view it as "Japan's typical handling of War Crimes". Which is an attitude that I not only find difficult to understand (funny, given it's how I used to think similarly) but surprising because I saw it as a disconnect.
My impression of the Imperial Japanese Army itself, is of a military run by lunatics. Many Japanese, I would even conjecture to say the overwhelming majority would hold that viewpoint. The secret police, which also existed pre-war being extremely Stalinist (amusing given that they were "anti-communist") as well as the groups that would hunt down and blame and try to attack and kill Zainichi Koreans (even native Japanese, just anyone that "looked" Korean) these are images that make many Japanese shudder with fear and horror.
This doesn't mean that you won't get Kobayashis and the like who will try engender that Yukio Mishima-esque fetishization of the military, but I'm confident in saying that's a very small minority position. Not that it shouldn't be criticized all the same, but it's important to highlight that it doesn't hold water in the general public circles.
If we are all to truly understand one another, criticism and accountability are important, but it should be informed and done with the intent of bringing all walks of life together instead of using new ways to look down on each other.
I understand my responses are longwinded but my hope is that you and others see this an opportunity to understand each other. Even though my tone has been harsh. I think it's important for us to have this back and forth. Not just for you and I but other forum users as well.
There are too many online that seem eager to call the Japanese "Y*** M****" and have the desire to drop a third nuke dropped on them. Which is a disgusting sentiment.
In any case my good man, I hope things are going well for you, otherwise.
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Suggesting that I don’t view groups of people as “human beings” is a gross accusation, not “being harsh”. I’m sorry, but I don’t recall giving you permission to put things in my mouth, so I’d ask you to keep your hands to yourself.
It’s interesting that you accuse me of this while simultaneously telling me that the Japanese, as a monolith, express regret for WWII crimes and “fully understand”. They do not, because no groups of human beings are monoliths with uniform opinions.
You seem to be taking all of this as a personal attack against the mangaka, but I don’t have any opinions on him. I can only speak on what’s in front of me, and what’s in front of me is this work.
The gigantic blindspot in Japan regarding its warcrimes is very well documented, with thousands of right wing demonstrations, intimidation attempts and outright assassination against political opponents since the war. Perhaps you’ve also heard of Shinzo Abe after your study of Unit 731? How can you call these “minority positions” when they’ve been a constant since the war, coddled and protected by the government? Are you aware of the Chrysanthemum taboo and how a democracy was extremely close to censoring its own media until it became voluntary censorship?
I’m sorry if I don’t feel like complementing your bibliography, but you come across as someone who is already decided he is correct and has gone fully into preaching.
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"Suggesting that I don’t view groups of people as “human beings” is a gross accusation, not “being harsh”. I’m sorry, but I don’t recall giving you permission to put things in my mouth, so I’d ask you to keep your hands to yourself."
I mentioned before that was my impression. I understand it's a very serious thing to suggest otherwise, and I do apologize.
But I said that because I wanted to be honest with how I felt. If I'm being frank, it's why I responded in the first place. If I thought that you did view them as anything but a monolith, why would I respond in the first place? We're just having a conversation my friend. I understand I might've overstepped some boundaries, but we're adults here. It's not a police interrogation, relax!
"It’s interesting that you accuse me of this while simultaneously telling me that the Japanese, as a monolith, express regret for WWII crimes and “fully understand”. They do not, because no groups of human beings are monoliths with uniform opinions."
This is correct, any group of people is composed of many different worldviews, understandings, and perspectives that need to be taken into account.
While I understand your logic, it's, to use a politically charged term, false equivalence. It's not a controversial thing to say that every country around the world views the Nazis and Imperial Japanese with contempt. While there are variations of even those viewpoints in different countries depending on if they were directly affected or not. There are even those that try to understand Hitler's mindset, and what caused him to do what he did.
That being said, everyone across the world from all walks of life, know and abhor what Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan did, and that includes the Japanese themselves. I don't think that means that I'm looking at them monolithically, that just means I view them like I would anybody else on the street.
"You seem to be taking all of this as a personal attack against the mangaka, but I don’t have any opinions on him. I can only speak on what’s in front of me, and what’s in front of me is this work."
I never thought of it as a personal attack against Saito. If someone doesn't likes his works or wants to call them "trash" then he's entitled to his opinion and may even have valid criticisms.
If I can tell more of the real reason, I thought you went into the work with presuppositions in mind. While you did seem to like it, and were trying to give Saito a fair shake it was very clear you went into it looking to dismiss it. Which you did. It's important to use your own eyes when judging anything like you said, absolutely, but that's not what you did.
This doesn't invalidate your initial criticism. In my head, it goes like this.
Your criticism->Me trying to explain the intent->you counter by saying it still communicates X or Y->conceding that regardless of intent, it could still be taken to mean X or Y
At least is what my understanding of it is.
Also, I want to address this:
"Perhaps you’ve also heard of Shinzo Abe after your study of Unit 731?"
My friend again with the condescension!🤣 I'm joking of course. What do you think? Do I know my Prime Ministers? I try to cover my geopolitics as thoroughly as I can. Do I know the politics of Yemen? of Israel and Palestine? of even smaller countries like Monaco? Do I know my ABCs? My 123s? I'm just trying to be cheeky but my answer to all of these is yes.
"The gigantic blindspot in Japan regarding its warcrimes is very well documented, with thousands of right wing demonstrations, intimidation attempts and outright assassination against political opponents since the war. Perhaps you’ve also heard of Shinzo Abe after your study of Unit 731? How can you call these “minority positions” when they’ve been a constant since the war, coddled and protected by the government? Are you aware of the Chrysanthemum taboo and how a democracy was extremely close to censoring its own media until it became voluntary censorship?"
So that's what this is all about! 🤣
To you dw123456, and to all of those who have read this far into the thread, let me do something those in politics hate:
"The gigantic blind spot in the political allegiances of the Japanese people is very well documented. With thousands of left wing demonstrations that often ended in violence with police, intimidation attempts, and outright assassination against political opponents. Perhaps you've noticed that a good number of Japanese Mangaka, anime production staff, film directors and academics were either Socialist/Communist themselves or associated with/had sympathies with those that were? Did you know the great Osamu Tezuka associated with Japanese Communists and Socialists?!"
"Did you know that the mangaka of Barefoot Gen, who is staunchly critical of the government, serialized some chapters in Japanese Communist publications?!"
"Do you know of the concept that sprung from the New Left of Anti-Japaneseism? That "the nation called Japan and the entire Japanese race should be extinguished from the face of the earth?!"
"Did you know that the manga adaptation of Das Kapital sold very well, and what sold even better was a manga adaptation of "Kani Kōsen" a Japanese Communist novel?!"
"Does this mean a certain amount of the population are closet communists that wish for the destruction of Japan as a nation, want to be absorbed back into China, and to spread the Marxist doctrine and reignite the Cold War?!"
"Is Mario actually an example of Ideological Subversion through mascot character?! Mario is Communist?! Did he bing bing wahoo his way into seizing the means of production?!"
The last parts I was joking about, just wanted to have some fun with that last bit.
To answer sincerely, no. I think Left Wing Japanese politicians are just people, like you and I with different viewpoints, worldviews, etc. I'd consider myself more Center-Left or Left in the framework of Japanese politics. The Right Wing are no different. They have their own stances on matters, and the public are just a mix of all of those viewpoints like any other country.
I said this because I know it will ruffle some feathers, but to speak to you sincerely, therein lies your problem. If your understanding of another country is "The Right Wing is evil", then a gap in your understanding of that country exists. I do not know if you can read Japanese or know someone that can translate, but I'd recommend finding someone that can or study it yourself so you can read the literature and see the politics "in its own environment" so to speak.
Now to clarify, this doesn't mean you have to like Abe! 🤣
I don't think very highly of him myself, but it's important to be informed on his positions and understand his perspective.
"I’m sorry if I don’t feel like complementing your bibliography, but you come across as someone who is already decided he is correct and has gone fully into preaching."
It doesn't matter what I think my friend. You get to a certain age and pride and "the need to be right" doesn't matter much anymore. You just want to get to know people, what they think, and just have a dialogue.
This paragraph you've posted right here:
"The gigantic blindspot in Japan regarding its warcrimes is very well documented, with thousands of right wing demonstrations, intimidation attempts and outright assassination against political opponents since the war. Perhaps you’ve also heard of Shinzo Abe after your study of Unit 731? How can you call these “minority positions” when they’ve been a constant since the war, coddled and protected by the government? Are you aware of the Chrysanthemum taboo and how a democracy was extremely close to censoring its own media until it became voluntary censorship?"
I'll come out and say it. I have seen this in my youth, with some slight variations here and there, almost word for word exactly the same 1000 times over. If I heard it once a day, to put into perspective, It would have spanned all of Barack Obama's and a bit of Trump's presidency. That's how often I saw and heard it.
I said what I said about you not to insinuate anything terrible about your character or to offend you. But I used to think the same as you did. Even say the same kind of things as you did. Because I looked at the same things you looked at.
I said that you don't see them as people because that's what you realize when you get out of that mindset. You start to realize that your view of not just Japan, but many things is narrow, and you start to want to get the full picture of everything. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be accountability, like with Russia and Ukraine for example, but you do yourself a disservice thinking that world is full of "good guys and bad guys", and trust me I had seen the whole politics game play out for 15 years, Life doesn't work that way.
This was a quite a thread. Long winded, as usual. But productive nonetheless. But for you my friend, I ask with your consideration, please understand my perspective on the matter. If after reading this you still disagree, that's fine! It's good to disagree. But it's like I said, it's important we understand one another above everything else.
EDIT: Had to make a bit of a correction, sorry about that!
EDIT 2: Corrected some typos, grammatical errors, and added some fun stuff!
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