Mesh - Ch. 15 - The Real Death of a Surreal Love (2)

[MangaDex]

 

[rock41t]

Thanks for the translation of this manga.
I liked the ending, it truly feels like Mesh's life is just starting now, and he also is starting to heal from his past traumas.

 

[bakasennin]

@ladang143 Immense thanks for sharing Mesh (and all the other Hagios) with us ❤️

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

Mesh has long been one of my Hagio favourites (and so one of my favourites period,) and @ladang143 thank you for doing such a good (and quick!) job with it to get it further known.
One question though--does this mean you won't be doing the prequel short story Boat (that was only retroactively confirmed to be a true prequel to Mesh--as the character isn't named in it)? I hate sounding greedy...

 

[ladang143]

Mesh has long been one of my Hagio favourites (and so one of my favourites period,) and @ladang143 thank you for doing such a good (and quick!) job with it to get it further known.
One question though--does this mean you won't be doing the prequel short story Boat (that was only retroactively confirmed to be a true prequel to Mesh--as the character isn't named in it)? I hate sounding greedy...

I will do "Boat" as well 👍
after a few weeks 😅

 

[thowawayhooray]

It's a bit surreal to see that Mesh has finally been completely translated, thank you so much for bringing us more Hagio Moto! I really wish there was more of this series, as I really enjoyed Milon and Mesh's dynamic, and this last arc in particular was particularly interesting with how it explored Mesh's relationship with his mother. The arc itself (this last chapter in particular) kind of reminded me of

Spoiler: Manga Spoilers

A Cruel God Reigns. I wonder if Hagio Moto considered Mesh (both the manga and the character) when writing ACGR and Jeremy in particular?

Although the ending was a bit abrupt, I enjoyed it! Mesh's split-second indecision when torn between pursing his father and going with Milon felt both tragic and bittersweet-- it was only sheer coincidence that he even saw his father at the platform, and his hesitation between choosing two different tracks in life and two different desires (love/companionship vs. revenge/vengeance) cost him dearly. I particularly loved the final pages, with Mesh's wistful expressions glancing back and forth between the two tracks. I too would also like to think that he's now forging a new path in life, one that will hopefully be better for him.

I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for Boat! Once again, thank you for the TL!

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

I will do "Boat" as well 👍
after a few weeks 😅

YAYE!! <3

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

It's a bit surreal to see that Mesh has finally been completely translated, thank you so much for bringing us more Hagio Moto! I really wish there was more of this series, as I really enjoyed Milon and Mesh's dynamic, and this last arc in particular was particularly interesting with how it explored Mesh's relationship with his mother. The arc itself (this last chapter in particular) kind of reminded me of

Spoiler: Manga Spoilers

A Cruel God Reigns. I wonder if Hagio Moto considered Mesh (both the manga and the character) when writing ACGR and Jeremy in particular?

I've been Mesh obsessed for 20 years or so now--and it's fascinating in the career of Moto Hagio. In several interviews, Hagio has talked about how it marked a change in her style and career. It was created for the new magazine Petit Flower (which is now essentially Flowers) which was one of Shogakukan's first shojo magazines to target young adults and was created by the Shojo Comic editor (and honourary "Year 24 Group" member) Junya Yamamoto who was responsible basically for giving Hagio, Keiko Takemiya, etc, free reign to tell the stories they wanted to. (Eventually Takemiya's Kaze to Ki no Uta would move from Shojo Comic to Petit Flower too.)
Hagio's manga for the first issue of Petit Flower was The Visitor, the spin-off of The Heart of Thomas which was used as a big selling point, but right after she launched Mesh in the next issue (Petit Flower was initially only quarterly a year, so there was a big break between installments.) Hagio has said that it was the first time she was able to focus on adults (although Mesh isn't really an adult himself, but older than the protagonists of Thomas, Poe Clan, Star Red, etc) and she changed her art style as well to a less montage and more straight forward style.
And I think she absolutely was working with themes she would expand on for Cruel God Reigns so I agree with you, although Mesh still followed a slightly anthology format the way Poe Clan (her previous longest work) had. For example, the character of Lucien in the Carnival story arc feels in some ways like a prototype of Greg from Cruel God...
Anyway, I'll shut up, I could blabber on about all this for ages and I'm sure you're aware of these things anyway, but I find it really exicting to see how Hagio grew and developped her themes (of course between Mesh and Cruel God her main focus was both on shorter sci fi works as well as the longer Marginal as well as a few years of focusing on ballet manga.)

 

[thowawayhooray]

I've been Mesh obsessed for 20 years or so now--and it's fascinating in the career of Moto Hagio. In several interviews, Hagio has talked about how it marked a change in her style and career. It was created for the new magazine Petit Flower (which is now essentially Flowers) which was one of Shogakukan's first shojo magazines to target young adults and was created by the Shojo Comic editor (and honourary "Year 24 Group" member) Junya Yamamoto who was responsible basically for giving Hagio, Keiko Takemiya, etc, free reign to tell the stories they wanted to. (Eventually Takemiya's Kaze to Ki no Uta would move from Shojo Comic to Petit Flower too.)
Hagio's manga for the first issue of Petit Flower was The Visitor, the spin-off of The Heart of Thomas which was used as a big selling point, but right after she launched Mesh in the next issue (Petit Flower was initially only quarterly a year, so there was a big break between installments.)

Funnily enough, I just finished reading The Visitor a week or so ago. I had no idea it was a premiere title for Petit Flower-- I'm guessing this was largely due to The Heart of Thomas' popularity and financial success. I also wasn't aware of Mesh initially being a quarterly series (it might explain the episodic 1 to 2 chapter arc structure I noticed). I'm not too familiar with the Petit Flower magazine, but it seems like it switched to a monthly format after 1981. I wonder when this switch happened during Mesh's run, since it seems to have been released up until 1984.

Hagio has said that it was the first time she was able to focus on adults (although Mesh isn't really an adult himself, but older than the protagonists of Thomas, Poe Clan, Star Red, etc) and she changed her art style as well to a less montage and more straight forward style.

I've only just started reading Poe Clan so I can't comment on it, but I definitely noticed this topical shift while reading Mesh compared to her earlier 70s works. Seeing the art style shift was another thing I enjoyed about this series, as I really love Hagio's art style from the 80s-90s in particular! I hadn't thought about the paneling style shift until you mentioned it, but now I'm looking forward to re-reading THoT and The Visitor at some point to compare the two stylistically. I haven't read many of Hagio's more recent series (excluding anthologies) yet, like Otherworld Barbara, so I'm curious to see how her overall style has further developed in the modern era.

And I think she absolutely was working with themes she would expand on for Cruel God Reigns so I agree with you, although Mesh still followed a slightly anthology format the way Poe Clan (her previous longest work) had. For example, the character of Lucien in the Carnival story arc feels in some ways like a prototype of Greg from Cruel God...

Spoiler: Spoilers for Cruel God

On my first read, I was getting a strange sense of presque vu with Lucien, but that connection hadn't clicked until you mentioned it! Thinking back on the Carnival arc, Lucien's character and behavior has a new eery and disturbing layer to it, as under this lens he reads like a potential version of a young Greg, who we only get the barest mentions of in ACGR.

Anyway, I'll shut up, I could blabber on about all this for ages and I'm sure you're aware of these things anyway, but I find it really exicting to see how Hagio grew and developped her themes (of course between Mesh and Cruel God her main focus was both on shorter sci fi works as well as the longer Marginal as well as a few years of focusing on ballet manga.)

I actually only just started making my way through Year 24 works late last year, and only began reading Hagio's works a few months ago (she's quickly cemented herself as one of my all-time favorite authors), so this comment was a enlightening read, thank you for sharing!

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

delete

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

I actually only just started making my way through Year 24 works late last year, and only began reading Hagio's works a few months ago (she's quickly cemented herself as one of my all-time favorite authors), so this comment was a enlightening read, thank you for sharing!

Yeah, I mean I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure The Visitor was used to launch Petit Flower due to Thomas' continued popularity. Of course being Hagio, it's a great work and doesn't feel like a cash grab or anything cynical.
Petit Flower actually had a weird circulation format. It was quarterly from 1980-81, by the end of 81 it became bimonthly (odd months I believe,) then in 84 became monthly, then in 88 became bimonthly again until 2002 it re-launched as (Monthly) Flowers. (I admit I never get why sometimes these Japanese magazines relaunch as a new magazine that is basically exactly the same...)
You might be right that these formats were one reason that Mesh was structured how it was--like I said it echoed the format of Poe Clan which ran in the monthly Besatsu Shojo Comic (with around 50 page instalments as well) unlike, say, Heart of Thomas which ran weekly in (regular) Shojo Comic primarily in 13-15 pages instalments (if you read the collected version it's often obvious where each instalment would end, even if they don't mark it.)
I always wonder what it was like for the long suffering (in a good way ) readers of Kaze to Ki no Uta when it moved from weekly Shojo Comic to Petit Flower for its final 3-4 years who had to wait longer for each instalment, but I guess they got longer instalments... (And yes, all this stuff--how these stories were serialized, etc, fascinates me way way too much lol) Hagio of course mostly stayed loyal to Petit Flower/Flowers and Shogakukan (where currently the Poe sequel is running) although there are plenty of one offs in other magazines and publishers, including her last long serial Queen Margot which ran in You from 2012-2020... Whereas Takemiya jumped around between publishers and magazines until her retirement to academia...
Do read Otherworld Barbara for sure--until I got to Hagio and Takemiya and other Year 24 mangaka I never would have said I much liked sci fi, but I love their stuff and Barbara is just... wow--if anything it tries to cover too much (from gender issues, to familial, in this case mostly father/son but also mother/daughter issues--so the usual Hagio themes--to cloning, space travel, dreams, etc) but is amazing even if after several re-reads I can't say I quite understand the ending. It doesn't matter lol
I think Barbara basically still has her post 1980 art style. It's been a bit jarring looking at the Poe sequel (which FG last year claimed they'd start releasing by the end of this year, but we'll see) with the massive change in art style. In general I find it fascinating that the 1970s shojo style was so... baroque? Like I said, with the lack of usually much of a panelling grid whatsoever, etc, and I wish I knew more about why there was such a change for all the year 24 group--certainly Hagio and Takemiya--in the 1980s although it might have to do with also writing primarily for an older audience (though the reasoning for this I'm not sure of )
In regards to Lucien and Carnival--yes that's a great point. You could almost see it as, well, a young Greg--the start of the emotional breakdown of him. With Lucien there's still a sense of a struggle with his violent and harmful desires and maybe some attempt to control them, while by the time we get to Greg (who is basically as pure evil a character as you'll find in a Hagio work with not much nuance there) he's fully accepted that.
I'm jealous that you're just discovering the Year 24 group! And really, it's only been in the past 10-15 years that we've started to be able to read a lot more of their stuff (yes, mostly due to scans--which I'm thankful for--but also some published commercial works.) I'm old old old and discovered them through Hagio way back in 1995-96 as a teen when Viz briefly tried a Flowers line and released They Were 11 (and then the Four Shojo Stories anthology which also included Keiko Nishi slice of life stories and Changeling by the underappreciated "post Year 24" mangaka and a former Hagio assistant, Shio Sato) as well as Hagio's A Prime (aka A A.') a great series of three 1980s connected short sci fi works.
The release bombed of course (Rachel Thorn was leading it and I've gotten to talk to her a bit about it,) although around the same time Viz did release Banana Fish (initially hiding its shojo roots) and I thought that would be it for me getting to read any of this stuff, at least until I started getting (sorta) better at Japanese and found some French editions, so it does seem amazing that we have the stuff we have.

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

Oh as to your question--it was only the final two part Mesh story, Surreal Love that ran when Petit Flower became Monthly, in the May/June 1984 issues.

 

[Lasayuri]

thank you for the scanlation!

 

[ladang143]

Woah, I didn’t expect the conversation to get this lively!

Big thanks to @EricHenwoodGreer for sharing those fascinating details about the background of Mesh.
I’ve also read several interviews with Hagio a long time ago, but I can’t remember the sources or exact wording, so please take what I say here with a grain of salt.

From what I recall, Hagio mentioned that Mesh was created during a time when her relationship with her parents was at its worst. She didn’t go into detail about why, but we can definitely sense the pessimism in how parent-child relationships are portrayed in the story.

This is just my observation, but I think many Japanese mangaka — including Hagio — seem to be heavily influenced by Freudian psychoanalysis, and it really shows in "Mesh". Mesh appears to be attracted to his mother while having a hostile relationship with his father. At the same time, others see him as a "daughter," and he seems to have feelings for Milon, who, interestingly, reminds his mother of Mesh’s father. This suggests Mesh might have both a mother and father complex. His attraction to Milon could be seen as a way of expressing his suppressed feelings toward his father. In the end, Mesh chooses to walk away from both his father and Milon. I think this symbolizes his decision to break free from the emotional curse of his parents. As touching as his relationship with Milon is, it still mirrors the power dynamics (superiority/inferiority) of his relationship with his father.

The psychological themes in Mesh are definitely explored even more deeply in A Cruel God Reigns. I remember in another interview, someone asked Hagio why she made Jeremy a boy or something about the main character's gender, since stories of abuse by stepfathers usually involve girls. Hagio explained that she wanted to create a character who was "in love" with both his mother and his father. She said it felt strange, in her view, to depict a girl being romantically or sexually attracted to her mother, so Jeremy has to be a boy. Thus, we have Jeremy in an obsessive, unhealthy relationship with his mother and also has a physical relationship with his stepfather. I don’t remember her exact wording, but the "love" she referred to definitely felt closer to the Oedipus complex than to any kind of healthy affection.

I'm not an expert in psychology or literature, so apologies if any of this sounds clunky or off!

 

[thowawayhooray]

I’ve also read several interviews with Hagio a long time ago, but I can’t remember the sources or exact wording, so please take what I say here with a grain of salt. From what I recall, Hagio mentioned that Mesh was created during a time when her relationship with her parents was at its worst. She didn’t go into detail about why, but we can definitely sense the pessimism in how parent-child relationships are portrayed in the story.

I was curious to see if I could track down some of these interviews, and I think I might have found some possible sources!

Sadly I can't find the entire article online, but Hagio discusses her some of her motivations behind writing Mesh in her conversation with Iwana Kunio in 「特集 少女マンガ」（「少女マンガという装置」）, from the April 1995 edition of imago（イマーゴ）, in this quote:

「まあとにかく親と決裂したので変な親子の話を描いてやろうと。『メッシュ』ですね。ここでやっと私は親と対決する話を描くハメになるんですね。なぜ対決するかというと、理解したいから」と語られている」

It also seems like Hagio's relationship with her parents took a turn for the worse around the time of her writing The Visitor (same source as above):

「親と大げんかしているとき、『訪問者』とかの頃です。ちょっと暗くなるんですよ。」

(Apparently she also goes into her relationship with her parents more in the Shogakukan edition of "The Visitor", in the article "Before and After the Visitor".)

She also discusses this in「萩尾望都 少女漫画が文学を超えた日」(from AERA, 2006 edition), where she mentions wanting to free herself from her inner parent when writing Mesh. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find it anywhere online so I can't find any direct quotes.

I remember in another interview, someone asked Hagio why she made Jeremy a boy or something about the main character's gender, since stories of abuse by stepfathers usually involve girls.

I was also able to find the interview you were talking about, discussed in Q5. It does contains spoilers for ACGR, for anyone who hasn't read it: https://flowers.shogakukan.co.jp/migration/interview/interview_04.html. Hagio also discusses Jeremy and Sandra in this interview: http://kenbunden.net/general/archives/2138/2#toc--, for anyone curious.

This is just my observation, but I think many Japanese mangaka — including Hagio — seem to be heavily influenced by Freudian psychoanalysis...

Yep, I agree! I noticed the Freudian themes when reading ACGR, but didn't catch them while reading Mesh until you mentioned it. You're definitely already aware of this already, but in her interview with Rachel Thorn, Hagio also mentions having read many psychology books when trying to mend her relationship with her parents, so I think Hagio has absolutely come across Freudian theory.

Thank you @EricHenwoodGreer and @ladang143 for your in-depth comments! It's fascinating to see how Hagio's relationship with her parents reflects in her works, especially when comparing the themes explored in older works like Mesh to the themes explored in later works like Iguana Girl and ACGR.

 

[EricHenwoodGreer]

REALLY have enjoyed this discussion, and all the links to interviews I don't think I've come across before. Thanks @ladang143 and @thowawayhooray for this.

That one on Flowers' site which is a Q&A after Cruel God Reigns finished its long run is fascinating. Without giving away any Zankoku spoilers, there are things in it I've never thought about (one thing, without getting too personal, as I actually appreciated for reasons in my own past that it dealt with close familial sexual abuse between a father figure and a boy rather than a girl, even if those cases are more common--and that then it played out in ways like "well, does that affect whether the boy is gay or not" etc.) Also enjoyed the frivolous stuff like her then fave movies and shows (of course she likes the crazy originally German Elisabeth musical which has such Hagio touches as the personification of Death, played by a hot guy, haunting Elisabeth throughout her life...)
"I don’t remember her exact wording, but the "love" she referred to definitely felt closer to the Oedipus complex than to any kind of healthy affection." Right--and in ACGR Hagio sets this up perfectly because she shows how close Jeremy and Sandra are--almost like husband and wife--before Greg enters their life (something that in my experience can become quite common especially with mothers and sons when the father is no longer in the picture.)

And thank God she didn't retire ten years after that 2001-2002 interview (though her next major work, as she said it would be, was sci fi--Otherworld Barbara.)

I agree that Hagio was particularly taken with Freudian psychoanalysis--at least some of the basic concepts--of course so were artists who were big influences on her (and other Year 24 group members--notably Takemiya but of course we could chat all day about the relationship--or lack of one--between MH and KT and the similarities and key differences in their work.) I'm thinking about the works by people like Cocteau (it seems fitting that Hagio's first manga for older readers before Petit Flower was created was an adaptation of Cocteau's Les Enfants Terribles which ran in 1979 as the manga insert in Seventeen magazine. Talk about Freudian parental and sibling relationships...) It IS interesting that in personal interviews, Hagio singles out her issues with her mother much more than with her father...
(I highly recommend the NHK special about Hagio that aired on NHK about two years back even though it's stuck with pretty rough computer translated subtitles--with various mangaka and manga critics talking each about a fave Hagio work interspersed with an interview with her. MESH isn't one of the works really focused on, but its themes are... If anyone needs help finding it, let me know.)

@ladang143 I love and agree with your take on Mesh. It's interesting that in this final Mesh story, Cathy accusses Millon of having the parental complex, when it seems obvious it's Mesh (and maybe even some other characters) who actually seem to show that.

I want to go back through all of the stories again to look for common paralels with Mesh's different relationships (or others' different relationships to him.) I have gone through the manga several times over the past 20+ years, but in the past it has been via my own still very very poor translations, so reading this scan has given me more insight. I'm still not really sure what I make of the confusion others have, and Mesh sometimes has (?) over his own gender, for example (something that isn't carried over to Cruel God really at all, but was at least on one level present with Hagio's earlier works like Heart of Thomas and Poe where the younger teen boy protagonists are so much more androgynous--something that seemed common to several Year 24 Group members and did NOT come from earlier homoerotic shojo manga like Hideko's great Fire! for example.) But now I'm rambling and not sure I'm making much sense...
I was going to ask what people thought of the ending of Mesh. On the official Moto Hagio site at cafebleu the person who runs it has his own take, but I don't quite agree with it. But I do like what Ladang said above that it shows Mesh not choosing either...