Nobunaga no Chef - Ch. 223 - The Nanban's Plan

[MangaDex]

 

[BowlOfMisoSoup]

The previous chapter discussion thread when people were going crazy about Yasuke ended up making me look him up cuz I had no idea what the deal was. I still don't. But he seems to be a really fascinating historical figure despite there being barely any information about him. But that just means the author can pretty much do anything regarding this character and I look forward to it.

 

[Blaster746]

The way the artist drew Yasuke doing mime...

 

[JacqliEster]

The previous chapter discussion thread when people were going crazy about Yasuke ended up making me look him up cuz I had no idea what the deal was. I still don't. But he seems to be a really fascinating historical figure despite there being barely any information about him. But that just means the author can pretty much do anything regarding this character and I look forward to it.

Basically
Yasuke as a character in actual Japanese culture and history is nothing more than exotic black guy that is tall, and Nobunaga taken interest in and hire as some sword bearer, his historical note is sparse and have 0 impactful mention as character

Then comes Thomas Lockley, a activist liberal author that trying to push modern agenda and blackwashing history, the one who expand the lore of Yasuke is this guy, he is the one editing Yasuke Wikipedia using HIS own work as reference, and then in his own work/book reference the Wikipedia as reference, effectively creating an inbred ouroboros of information for Yasuke as character

in Japan, his work are more subdued and less overt, and even so those are mostly counted as fanfic/novel at best, and baseless assumption at worst by most Japanese, he even got called out during an interview with native Japanese back then.
However his English work is different, he say all this inbred information of him self referencing himself as source as a FACT, this aren't known by the Japanese historical association since they don't really check the English side of thing

That he is this famous samurai and play pivotal role for Nobunaga, As a foreigner that can't talk Japanese that well, and stay merely for a year there, gaining such high position (not even accounting the dissatisfaction that would have caused from his retainer for gifting some nobody slave from overseas that kind of position), is nonsense that couldn't stand scrutiny when looked closely, that he play pivotal role in changing Japan history by being the one that behead Nobunaga in Hongan-Ji to "Prevent" it from falling to enemy hand.

Cue Ubislop making Yasuke in assassin creed and saying this is historically accurate from this guy liberal activist work and insist on it being true, the outrage from people caught japan attention and they actually check and rebuke this guy work as nothing but fanfic at best and found out his work aren't even the same in English version, his name has since been removed

TLDR: So all the Yasuke the Samurai stuff u see in media, is nothing but a lie from revisionist history from an Activist Liberal Author that trying to blackwash history.
People that follow this media knew about it and immediately averse in seeing Yasuke as character, questioning is this one also the fake revisionist history one or actual Japanese history one, hence the reaction

 

[YuharaYashin]

The previous chapter discussion thread when people were going crazy about Yasuke ended up making me look him up cuz I had no idea what the deal was. I still don't. But he seems to be a really fascinating historical figure despite there being barely any information about him. But that just means the author can pretty much do anything regarding this character and I look forward to it.

I feel that people are ironically applying their own bias onto history, and ignoring what even Japan believes. Thomas Lockley is passionate about Yasuke's role in history, that's a given, but his paper is also properly peer reviewed. There are already articles that pre-date his, that points to Yasuke being a samurai.

Here's a post from someone else who also did their research:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/flgpph/_/fl05vfp

And additionally:
"Kaneko Hiraku (professor at the Historiographical Institute of the University of Tokyo, the most prestigious historical research institution in Japan) includes in his book below, paired with the translation in Thomas Lockley's book (which is correct):

然に彼黒坊被成御扶持、名をハ号弥助と、さや巻之のし付幷私宅等迄被仰付、依時御道具なともたさせられ候、
This black man called Yasuke was given a stipend, a private residence, etc., and was given a short sword with a decorative sheath. He is sometimes seen in the role of weapon bearer.

The meaning of the word stipend alone is not supposed to prove Yasuke was a samurai. What proves Yasuke was a samurai is not that he received a stipend, but that he received a samurai stipend & carried Nobunaga's weapons which was usually the job of a koshō and koshō were samurai & was awarded a residence by Nobunaga and the only non-samurai to be awarded one in the Shinchōkōki was the special one given to the Jesuits & he was given 10 kanmon by Nobunaga's nephew Tsuda Nobuzumi which was a lot more than the annual income of some samurai & he was mobilized and followed Nobunaga on the Takeda campaign of 1582 and remained by Nobunaga's side even after Nobunaga dismissed all his "ordinary soldiers" & he fought with a katana at Nijō.

If you've read this and all my other posts and links on Yasuke and still don't believe Yasuke was a samurai, then you either a) prefer to believe your own bias over historical research or b) should post an academic level publication arguing Yasuke wasn't a samurai so I could read it."

 

[JacqliEster]

I feel that people are ironically applying their own bias onto history, and ignoring what even Japan believes. Thomas Lockley is passionate about Yasuke's role in history, that's a given, but his paper is also properly peer reviewed. There are already articles that pre-date his, that points to Yasuke being a samurai.

Here's a post from someone else who also did their research:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/flgpph/_/fl05vfp

And additionally:
"Kaneko Hiraku (professor at the Historiographical Institute of the University of Tokyo, the most prestigious historical research institution in Japan) includes in his book below, paired with the translation in Thomas Lockley's book (which is correct):

The meaning of the word stipend alone is not supposed to prove Yasuke was a samurai. What proves Yasuke was a samurai is not that he received a stipend, but that he received a samurai stipend & carried Nobunaga's weapons which was usually the job of a koshō and koshō were samurai & was awarded a residence by Nobunaga and the only non-samurai to be awarded one in the Shinchōkōki was the special one given to the Jesuits & he was given 10 kanmon by Nobunaga's nephew Tsuda Nobuzumi which was a lot more than the annual income of some samurai & he was mobilized and followed Nobunaga on the Takeda campaign of 1582 and remained by Nobunaga's side even after Nobunaga dismissed all his "ordinary soldiers" & he fought with a katana at Nijō.

If you've read this and all my other posts and links on Yasuke and still don't believe Yasuke was a samurai, then you either a) prefer to believe your own bias over historical research or b) should post an academic level publication arguing Yasuke wasn't a samurai so I could read it."

Him getting a "stipend" AKA Salary (Fuchi = Rice Salary) is something that everyone at that time got, even housekeeper or mule that carrying luggage, which doesn't say much about it

he was given a house since he is now under oda, So he got a Yashiki (Housing) & Tachi (Large Katana), and tachi in that era is common, even farmer have it, and saying it's equal to samurai is false.

Now if u actually follow his work and understand, Thomas Locklee based his work from information from Hirayama Yu, a historian that specialized in Takeda family (also a commie) but not Nobunaga clan.
Now if u understand in Takeda family specifically, farmer & soldier are not differentiated much and chaotically mixed together with very lax law about it, so in his Theory it's only a "Possibility" under Takeda clan rule

And Nobunaga like sumo, the reward for the winner is usually given samurai sword or even a house, in 1579, two years before Yasuke came to Japan, there was a sumo wrestler named Ban Seirin who received an award at a sumo tournament presided over by Nobunaga and was kept as a vassal. He fought to the end along with Nobunaga during the Hongan-ji Incident that occurred three years later in 1582, and died in the battle with honor as a samurai. However, there is no record of a sumo tournament hosted by Nobunaga after 1579. Therefore, in Thomas Locklee's novel, Yasuke was in Japan two years earlier and competed in sumo, and as a result, he received Sayamaki and Fumochi from Nobunaga. In the first place, there is only one document that says that Yasuke received podwood, and that is not a document from that time, but a later record with very little credibility.

And mind you, Akechi himself say Yasuke isn't a samurai hence why he didn't join the Oda forces to commit seppuku.

Now from all that information, it's way more likely for this guy to steal and use Ban Seirin story and mix it up with Yasuke due to how little information recorded about him since he is that unimportant.

They basically went with, "well he got a sword, so he can be a 'Samurai' ", while in actuality the position mentioned is probably more or less just a hired muscle bodyguard rather than actual Samurai that hold territory or working & leading certain forces under the Daimyou

Among the historical materials that are said to be highly reliable, the name ``Yasuke'' appears in only two places. Among the multiple manuscripts of the Nobunaga Koki, there is one in the manuscript called the Sonkeikaku-bon. The other is an entry in Ietada's diary.

"Sonkeikakubon" was copied about 100 years later by a descendant of the person who wrote Nobunaga Koki. It contains additional descriptions not found in other manuscripts. As a result, opinions are divided among Japanese historians over whether parts of the story are presumed to have been added with facts discovered later and parts of the story are presumed to have been exaggerated to suit the times and social conditions.

Information about Yasuke in the Sonkeikaku version of the Nobunaga Koki includes the following addition: "His name was Yasuke.He gave him a sheath scroll with a noshi, a fumochi, and a private residence." Other manuscripts only mention that "There was a black man brought by the missionaries," and it is unclear whether Nobunaga hired him or not. The Ietada diary states, "There was a black-skinned person beside Nobunaga.He was about 182cm tall and had skin like ink.His name was Yasuke."Therefore, it is possible that the Sonkeikaku version incorporated this information. In the historical materials written by the Portuguese missionary Frois, there is only mention of the people as "Cafre people." Portuguese missionaries at the time did not identify each black slave individually. The details of the Hongan-ji Incident are quoted from this historical document. However, the original of this historical material has been lost, and it is actually a tertiary source because it is based on a manuscript that was retranslated into Portuguese from an Italian manuscript.

That is all the actual historical record of this guy, and from this few word, they make a novel and fanfic outta him.

 

[YuharaYashin]

u/ParallelPain offers some important distinctions here:

In general, 扶持 is a term for a payment for mid-lower ranking warriors for them to hire (usually warrior) servants for (usually temporary) employment. Given the term's usual usage, and that Yasuke was clearly by Nobunaga's side in permanent employment, it doesn't make sense for Yasuke to be anything but a warrior.

Even if Yasuke was "only" a 小姓 (page) or 道具持ち (weapons-bearer), that would make him a warrior on par with Ranmaru (at least before spring of 1582 when Ranmaru received a large fief).

In contrast, the Toyokagami specifically says Hideyoshi started out taking care of Nobunaga's shoes when Nobunaga went hunting. When Hideyoshi became a samurai, the term used for Hideyoshi's servants was ずさ.

You seem to be under the impression that a samurai was someone who needed to be officially made one, like "knighted". That isn't very accurate for the knight either, but bushi was a social group determined by what one did, not a formal rank or title. Meaning Ietada describing him as Nobunaga's fuchi, and as it doesn't make sense for Ietada to think Nobunaga was someone in a position to be dealing with the hiring of servants himself, Ietada's diary is more record of Yasuke being a samurai than many others would get.

Could Ietada be using the term to mean something other than its usual meaning, or just be mistaken? Of course. But as far as I know currently no one has put forward evidence of, or really even argued such. All published authors in English and Japanese pretty much treat Yasuke as a samurai (Lockley goes so far as to say so in the title of his book).

Ever since previously people have been arguing with me that "stipend" could be given to anyone, not just samurai, without considering the word’s meaning in Japanese. I have already mentioned how the word was used in Japanese history. Let’s look then specifically at how Ōta Gyūichi, the author of the chronicles, used it.

The word was not a one-off usage by Ōta Gyūichi and every single usage of the word stipend was, without exception, either giving it to samurai (some incredibly high ranked) or used in the context of hiring samurai or samurai’s salary. This includes a young sumo wrestler who may or may not have been a samurai, but was definitely hired by Nobunaga as his personal samurai. There is therefore no reason to think Gyūichi was using the term in Yasuke's context any differently. In fact we might even draw a slight parallel to Tomo Shōrin. Yasuke was said to have had the strength of ten men, meaning he must have demonstrated that strength and it’s certainly possible he demonstrated it through wrestling and beating everyone. Nobunaga loved wrestling, loved exotic stuff, and as shown above loved to demonstrate his generosity. So, it would certainly make sense on meeting Yasuke for Nobunaga to give Yasuke, who was exotic and might have been good at wrestling, a samurai’s stipend, a decorated sword, and a residence."

Note that very few sources actually explicitly refer to samurai as samurai. We are both aware that it is a social class that is defined by role and not title, which does change depending on the era.

So even if he has no governing role nor did he lead a war (which not all samurai do anyway), Yasuke's close relationship with Nobunaga as well as the assets and roles he had, are more than enough to define him as a samurai in his times.

 

[JacqliEster]

yes, never in the post above I mention yasuke as not being close to nobunaga, I specifically mention he is basically his private bodyguard due to his body strength and size, and work as swordbearer similar to ranmaru.

The samurai part is when there isn't concrete evidence of it being one, especially since thomas lockley information come from Hirayama Yu which study takeda clan which mix samurai with peasant (Note that each daimyou have different system with how they treat this status so takeda =/= oda)

not to mention there is actually corroboration of it from akechi that he doesn't need to commit seppuku compared to the sumo winner which given a sword and a house by nobunaga himself after he win the sumo tournament

the "Samurai" in oda clan is very flimsy, but he definitely have a position similar to a page