Nobunaga no Chef - Ch. 234 - Kennyo's Withdrawal

[MangaDex]

 

[Chireall]

Right, at this point in history, there was a rift between Nobunaga Oda and Nobumori Sakuma, although I don't know the details.

I guess the more history tries to change, the more it tries to correct itself.

 

[Harouki]

He probably doesn’t feel worthy of continuing to follow Nobunaga or something. Probably a growing inferiority complex due to not being able to follow along or understand the future Nobunaga sees

 

[HDMI1]

The old guard retiring, does Sakuma have a kid that takes his place?

 

[sssr]

The old guard retiring, does Sakuma have a kid that takes his place?

No. In real history Sakuma spent almost the entire 10 years of siege holding tea ceremonies and basically sitting in his siege castles doing nothing but line maintenance. He never attempted to provoke the defenders to come out - the standard behavior expected of siege commanders trying to gain merit. It's been suspected by historians that he was thinking of Ishiyama's siege lines as a de facto permanent border and himself as keeper of that border. That's why in real history, after Nobunaga petitioned the emperor to broker the final peace (something historians believe went against his long-term goals), Sakuma and his entire family were banished out of the Azuchi court. They never served Nobunaga again. The historical break was initiated by a very incensed Nobunaga writing a very degrading assessment of Sakuma's incompetence.

Akechi Mitsuhide gained control of Sakuma's forces and subordinates after this and in real history it was around this time that there seemed to have been some level of distance formed between Akechi and Nobunaga. The troops who followed Akechi in the Honno-ji Incident were dominated by ex-Sakuma men.

 

[DrSuperKamiGuru]

I wanted to see what the actual 'Colored World Map' by Kano Eitoku looked like so I tried googling it. It doesn't exist. At least if it did, it did not survive to present day. So the author fucking lied to us.

 

[kojirokakita]

I wanted to see what the actual 'Colored World Map' by Kano Eitoku looked like so I tried googling it. It doesn't exist. At least if it did, it did not survive to present day. So the author fucking lied to us.

I want to say it was in Osaka Castle which you know burnt down so

 

[BowlOfMisoSoup]

Hideyoshi gets mentioned a lot in the little historical blurbs by the "narrator". I'm really curious about his fate irl but also don't wanna spoil myself on potential Nobunaga no Chef stuff 😭

 

[ImabotStw]

Hideyoshi gets mentioned a lot in the little historical blurbs by the "narrator". I'm really curious about his fate irl but also don't wanna spoil myself on potential Nobunaga no Chef stuff 😭

If you change your mind and will want some summary video about sengoku period and unification of Japan I higly recommend one made by Cool History Bros on YouTube.

It covers time after Honno-ji incident.

 

[AEnigmatrices]

I frickin' knew it. Dude wants to retire.
As there are people who dream big, Sakuma's probably already content with the small things. The spotlight's too much for him.

At least that's what I think. The "I don't understand your vision" card has already been played just before Mt. Hiei, after all.

 

[HDMI1]

No. In real history Sakuma spent almost the entire 10 years of siege holding tea ceremonies and basically sitting in his siege castles doing nothing but line maintenance. He never attempted to provoke the defenders to come out - the standard behavior expected of siege commanders trying to gain merit. It's been suspected by historians that he was thinking of Ishiyama's siege lines as a de facto permanent border and himself as keeper of that border. That's why in real history, after Nobunaga petitioned the emperor to broker the final peace (something historians believe went against his long-term goals), Sakuma and his entire family were banished out of the Azuchi court. They never served Nobunaga again. The historical break was initiated by a very incensed Nobunaga writing a very degrading assessment of Sakuma's incompetence.

Akechi Mitsuhide gained control of Sakuma's forces and subordinates after this and in real history it was around this time that there seemed to have been some level of distance formed between Akechi and Nobunaga. The troops who followed Akechi in the Honno-ji Incident were dominated by ex-Sakuma men.

Interesting, and the fact that Kennyo was the one that burned down Honganji this time instead of Nobunaga may mean that Honnō-ji may not occur this time, as the monks would have no reason to sell Oda out.

 

[sssr]

Interesting, and the fact that Kennyo was the one that burned down Honganji this time instead of Nobunaga may mean that Honnō-ji may not occur this time, as the monks would have no reason to sell Oda out.

Er, no. In real history Kyonyo, Kennyo's son, was the one who burned down Hongan-ji as he was forced to retreat. In real history, when Kennyo left Hongan-ji, the hardliner faction that stayed behind chose Kyonyo as their leader and Kennyo disowned him in response. Kyonyo's position very quickly became untenable and after a while the majority of remaining Ikko-Ikki forces deserted to Kaga to make their last stand there, so when a second imperial delegation (the first one was the Konoe mission depicted here) asked him to surrender the temple he agreed. The temple burned down immediately after Kyonyo left. In real history as in this manga, the temple was deliberately burned down to prevent Nobunaga from using it.

Honno-ji was a Nichiren Buddhist temple, so it belonged to the mortal enemies of the Jodo Shinshu sect of Hongan-ji. Nichiren Buddhism also had its own military branch and used to fight brutal wars against the Jodo until the rise of the Ikko Ikki movement around the Jodo weakened them. This was why Nobunaga kept using Honno-ji as his preferred location in Kyoto during the entire time he was at war with the Ikko-Ikki and their Jodo leadership.

 

[katajaton]

I wonder if history really has diverged or if any discrepancies have just been errors from historians. That does leave Nobunaga's fate ambiguous, maybe he will secretly survive but history books will remain unchanged? Is this the way history will correct itself but still allow Ken's meddling without creating a paradox?

 

[HDMI1]

Er, no. In real history Kyonyo, Kennyo's son, was the one who burned down Hongan-ji as he was forced to retreat. In real history, when Kennyo left Hongan-ji, the hardliner faction that stayed behind chose Kyonyo as their leader and Kennyo disowned him in response. Kyonyo's position very quickly became untenable and after a while the majority of remaining Ikko-Ikki forces deserted to Kaga to make their last stand there, so when a second imperial delegation (the first one was the Konoe mission depicted here) asked him to surrender the temple he agreed. The temple burned down immediately after Kyonyo left. In real history as in this manga, the temple was deliberately burned down to prevent Nobunaga from using it.

Honno-ji was a Nichiren Buddhist temple, so it belonged to the mortal enemies of the Jodo Shinshu sect of Hongan-ji. Nichiren Buddhism also had its own military branch and used to fight brutal wars against the Jodo until the rise of the Ikko Ikki movement around the Jodo weakened them. This was why Nobunaga kept using Honno-ji as his preferred location in Kyoto during the entire time he was at war with the Ikko-Ikki and their Jodo leadership.

I guess the Wiki article needs to be corrected, it says that Nobunaga burned it down after sparing the remaining defenders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishiyama_Hongan-ji_War#Aftermath

 

[sssr]

I wonder if history really has diverged or if any discrepancies have just been errors from historians. That does leave Nobunaga's fate ambiguous, maybe he will secretly survive but history books will remain unchanged? Is this the way history will correct itself but still allow Ken's meddling without creating a paradox?

Yes and no. As in the case of the Battle of Tedorigawa, this manga is willing to take more fringe historical assessment to advance the plot in a certain direction. Since Kyonyo isn't a character and Kennyo is depicted as being much younger in this manga than he actually was, the burning is attributed to him.

I guess the Wiki article needs to be corrected, it says that Nobunaga burned it down after sparing the remaining defenders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishiyama_Hongan-ji_War#Aftermath

Yes, well. There are other places in Wiki where the articles contradict this. If you look at Kosa's article, for example, it says the temple mysteriously burned down. In any case, most Japanese historians agree that the most likely culprit was Kyonyo.

 

[SakuyaIzajoy]

I wanted to see what the actual 'Colored World Map' by Kano Eitoku looked like so I tried googling it. It doesn't exist. At least if it did, it did not survive to present day. So the author fucking lied to us.

I went and dug a bit, the piece it appears to be referencing is called "Map of the World and Twenty-Eight Cities" http://www.fondazioneintorcetta.info/pdf/biblioteca-virtuale/documenti/Cartography.pdf Figure 16
http://web.archive.org/web/20110323...cho.go.jp/e-culture/sannomaru/syuzou-10b.html
It's listed as unnamed artist(s) though so I spose it's some writer's liberties to attribute it to kano eitoku

 

[DrSuperKamiGuru]

I went and dug a bit, the piece it appears to be referencing is called "Map of the World and Twenty-Eight Cities" http://www.fondazioneintorcetta.info/pdf/biblioteca-virtuale/documenti/Cartography.pdf Figure 16
http://web.archive.org/web/20110323...cho.go.jp/e-culture/sannomaru/syuzou-10b.html
It's listed as unnamed artist(s) though so I spose it's some writer's liberties to attribute it to kano eitoku

That's awesome! Thanks for finding that. Seriously. The actual artwork looks amazing.