Sachiiro no One Room - Vol. 4 Ch. 26
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2018
- Messages
- 398
NUUU Not the cliffy!
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,433
Ah fuck that cliff
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,433
Ah wait... We have to wait for V5 to come out in fall?
That detective.. For being so smart he sure is dense...
I mean sure, with actual limited knowledge on the case, it would be hard to come to be open for the idea that xxx-san wasn't actually forced.
But if HE KNOWS that she was beaten and abused, then the possibility for her running away IS NOT that far fetched.
Everything from his perspective points to her being "free" or "unchained". NOTHING points for her to have been kidnapped and "forced" in the first place, and yet his detective mind can't seem to be able to grasp that idea....
I wouldn't mind him still believing that xxx-san was kidnapped, if it weren't for the fact that the author have given him such incredible insight and yet can't even be open to the idea that she wasn't forced at all...
I know this is a dumb complaint. But I just hate when characters show strong traits of insight, knowledge and wisedom, only to fail to reach an orignal conclusion.... This whole "have the power to see outside the box, only to think inside the box anyways".
I mean sure, with actual limited knowledge on the case, it would be hard to come to be open for the idea that xxx-san wasn't actually forced.
But if HE KNOWS that she was beaten and abused, then the possibility for her running away IS NOT that far fetched.
Everything from his perspective points to her being "free" or "unchained". NOTHING points for her to have been kidnapped and "forced" in the first place, and yet his detective mind can't seem to be able to grasp that idea....
I wouldn't mind him still believing that xxx-san was kidnapped, if it weren't for the fact that the author have given him such incredible insight and yet can't even be open to the idea that she wasn't forced at all...
I know this is a dumb complaint. But I just hate when characters show strong traits of insight, knowledge and wisedom, only to fail to reach an orignal conclusion.... This whole "have the power to see outside the box, only to think inside the box anyways".
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2018
- Messages
- 4,280
@ Southpaw
I don't think so. I think he actually the one get stuck in the box. I think that idea come to his mind easily because he have experiment with same children abuse case before. figure out the rest by her room quite of easily, he also skilled.
and from what i see. i guess he can't save the kid back then. now, another child in danger is filled in his mind already
I don't think so. I think he actually the one get stuck in the box. I think that idea come to his mind easily because he have experiment with same children abuse case before. figure out the rest by her room quite of easily, he also skilled.
and from what i see. i guess he can't save the kid back then. now, another child in danger is filled in his mind already
@Southpaw @Draidon I think it's because the detective's convinced that she's someone he has to save because she's the same as him.
I mean, in the end, Sachi never thought about running away from her home, only killing herself. What's blinding him to the idea that she's happily kidnapped and free from her abusive home is probably that he himself never thought about running away (or maybe that he did, but the police caught him and brought him back), which he sort of alluded to in ch 18. Also, Matsubase's goal isn't to find her and bring her back to her parents; it's to find her and keep them away, so they don't cause any permanent damage to her like with his right eye.
I'm guessing with the next few chapters, he might just leave the two alone after exploring things like foster care because it's obvious to anyone with half an eye that Sachi's happier than she ever was.
I mean, in the end, Sachi never thought about running away from her home, only killing herself. What's blinding him to the idea that she's happily kidnapped and free from her abusive home is probably that he himself never thought about running away (or maybe that he did, but the police caught him and brought him back), which he sort of alluded to in ch 18. Also, Matsubase's goal isn't to find her and bring her back to her parents; it's to find her and keep them away, so they don't cause any permanent damage to her like with his right eye.
I'm guessing with the next few chapters, he might just leave the two alone after exploring things like foster care because it's obvious to anyone with half an eye that Sachi's happier than she ever was.
@Sarsak @Tcof
You might be right, it did cross my mind that he might be too blinded by his own "heroism".
But I still find this... Well, in lack of better words; "odd", and notice my wordage of "too blinded".
The guy have shown nothing but great insight and just like @Draidon said "Any investigator with half a brain would have come to the conclusion that she's a runaway, not a kidnap victim."
You've an old lady telling him straight up that "they" were smiling from ear to ear. The teacher claiming that they TOGHETER conspired against him, and it didn't even cross his mind that maybe, just maybe, she had found refuge at someone else?
I don't go as far as Draidon and claim he should've came to that conclusion. But not even a consideration even?
I could've accepted him reaching that conclusion, only to dissmiss it by his own experience or something;
but this, this is just too flawed..
I still would think that a "well, I never ran away so no one else ever could EVER do that" is a bit silly, but not even understanding the there is a whole concept of "running away" as an inspector is just dumb...
You might be right, it did cross my mind that he might be too blinded by his own "heroism".
But I still find this... Well, in lack of better words; "odd", and notice my wordage of "too blinded".
The guy have shown nothing but great insight and just like @Draidon said "Any investigator with half a brain would have come to the conclusion that she's a runaway, not a kidnap victim."
You've an old lady telling him straight up that "they" were smiling from ear to ear. The teacher claiming that they TOGHETER conspired against him, and it didn't even cross his mind that maybe, just maybe, she had found refuge at someone else?
I don't go as far as Draidon and claim he should've came to that conclusion. But not even a consideration even?
I could've accepted him reaching that conclusion, only to dissmiss it by his own experience or something;
but this, this is just too flawed..
I still would think that a "well, I never ran away so no one else ever could EVER do that" is a bit silly, but not even understanding the there is a whole concept of "running away" as an inspector is just dumb...
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2018
- Messages
- 14
Honestly, I finished reading it all in one afternoon and it might be a bit of an unpopular opinion but this all reads like a David Cage manga. I mean I enjoyed reading it but there were a few times where I was a bit irked because of the whole being bullied and domestic violence thing. Even the teacher part, it feels like drama just for the sake of drama. There are probably real life cases where a person must've went through this hell of life but it maybe a few chapters of why exactly xxx-chan's life became this bad would've been nice at the start instead of just shoehorning them later on. That way you'd have attachment to the character thus their drama would be more meaningful and impactful. But I guess that's just my opinion. I'm still looking forward to seeing what's going to happen next.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2018
- Messages
- 4,280
@ijan1 i thought so too. It indeed feel lack of explain. but i prefer this way of telling. if easier to tell what story is about.
i think it easy to fix in this way. only need to show about her parent. like everyone say "no parent don't care for they kid". show their side and the rest is fine. bully pick the weak one. when she don't have the protect of family. the rest easily happen.
i think it easy to fix in this way. only need to show about her parent. like everyone say "no parent don't care for they kid". show their side and the rest is fine. bully pick the weak one. when she don't have the protect of family. the rest easily happen.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2018
- Messages
- 1,826
Ok, here we go again...
Devil's advocate here:
Open at your own risk, for it's gonna be a long one:
Devil's advocate here:
Open at your own risk, for it's gonna be a long one:
So far I've seen in multiple movies, novels, manga and comics the trope of the "great genius detective" with varying success; one thing we must remember whenever we see this happening is the following maxim that I read in Lasboss x Hero which states that "characters can only be as smart as their writer", which means that, for all of the informed attributes that an author can give a character, he can only be dumber, slightly dumber or as smart as the guy that writes the character, which, provided that most authors aren't exactly MIT students, doesn't really leave them much of a leeway in making smart people. Now, does this mean that it's impossible for authors to make genius characters and that they should stop trying to make them altogether? Of course not, it just depends on how the writer... well, writes them. You see, the whole thing about genius characters is that, as with real world geniuses, they can go from A to D without passing through B and having the tools to get C, which translates to having an individual capable of getting through the logical obstacles and quickly getting to the center of the conflict in a semi-believable way; this can be a double-edged sword: if done poorly it can spell the doom for the suspension of disbelief that makes the story stand by itself, but if done well it can lead to the readers worshiping the character in question (case in point, L from Death Note). Sure they can't really know the same things we, the readers, are privy to, but they can deduce them or at least get close to them with techniques that are used in real-life detective works and knowledge straight from an university lecture; this can lead to the writer getting some praise for the investigation work put into the story. All-in-all, a genius character serves a greater purpose to the story, armed with an arsenal of knowledge, logic, tools and contacts that can make them solve the mystery faster than any normal human possibly could.
That being said, they're still human.
They have the same foibles, the same weaknesses, suffer from the same logical potholes and fallacies that normal people are plagued with and, most of the time, in an even greater degree. They may get close to the same knowledge that readers are privy to, but don't ever get to know the same thing as we do. They have to go through lengthy processes, faulty info, doubtful testimonies and outright obstacles that only serve to paint a picture one color at a time; and they can't ever possibly know the true feelings and overall history of the characters they meet, they can't get into the heads of the characters the same way we do. Their judgement will always be clouded by doubt, rules, past encounters and whatever latest revelation entails. We don't know what the detective has seen or been through, nor do we know what he's been told about the case, he just has the testimonies of the parents, classmates and the teacher that won't even say anything that could potentially be harmful to them.
We must also remember that, in real life police cases, most kidnappings aren't the happy or goofy things we see in fiction: they're frightening situations that can, in the best of cases, seriously traumatize the people in question and in the worst cases outright ruin or end their lives. Not to mention that a key thing to bear in mind while dealing with kidnappings is that time is of the essence; evidence erodes rather quickly, the kidnappers can easily harm the victim at any moment for any reason and, even if they don't, the longer they spend through this whole ordeal the worse they're gonna be once it ends due to the trauma. So far Sachi has been kidnapped for quite a long time and the evidence they got is as hot as it's gonna get, which also means that the kidnapper is aware of it too, so they have to act quickly before something happens.
Another thing we must remember is that, unlike in fiction world, plot twists don't happen that often, if at all. A kidnapper isn't gonna have tea parties with the victim or solve their emotional issues the same way as when we see a grey fin emerging from the sea we're not gonna assume it's a guy playing an elaborate prank or a friendly dolphin that learned a new way to swim and wants to play with us, if we see a fin we're gonna assume it's a freaking shark and we're gonna scream and panic all the way to the shore. Sure, the granny might have told them that the "brothers" were grinning ear to ear, but this is the same granny that confused Sachi with a boy, not to mention that the kidnapper could have easily threatened the victim to act as inconspicuous as possible (people can fake smiles y'know). This guy can only act with the knowledge he has about what he knows happens in his society: "Xxx was a lonely girl with no friends or boyfriend, who kept no secrets to her family, who obeyed the rules of society and had no reasons whatsoever to run away from home or her school"; we readers know that's bullshit of the highest degree, but they don't, they only know that at most she was being abused by her teacher but so were other girls who didn't run away. For all they know, Sachi could have either tried to run away to the teacher and only pretended to help the kidnapper once she got caught or simply asked a simple favor from a psychopath; they already said that the testimony from the teacher is faulty at best, but it's the only thing they got. They don't know about the abuse from the parents or the classmates simply because there wasn't a single testimony or evidence about it, same as the nonexistent boyfriend that often happens in WESTERN detective shows (this is Japan y'know).
Not to mention that, good intentions aside, kidnapping is a crime no matter the situation and can only end well once proper procedures are done. Some people may kidnap persons they see as victims of society or bring attention to the victim in order to expose the true criminal, but at the end it's still a crime that can only end with a sentence, be it harsh (jail time for serious kidnapping) or light (a slap on the wrists for good meaning ones). The kidnapper took her out of society and her family without warning and should, if he wants to expose his view, return the girl to the proper authorities with the proper warnings. They ARE cops so they MUST obey the law.
Now, to end this in a high note, I want you all to remember what the detective said at the end "Kidnapper, I don't know what your motive is, but I definitively won't let you get away with it. I will save Xxx". He did not say "I will save Xxx from you (the kidnapper)" but a rather simple "I will save Xxx", meaning that he cares more about making sure the girl is safe than about capturing the culprit and has serious doubts about the whole case; sure enough he said that he won't let him get away with it, but for that you have to see my previous paragraph (kidnapping is a crime y'know).
Well, only thing I can say now, is good job for making it this far. Hope you this covered the whole topic without any need of a follow-up post.
That being said, they're still human.
They have the same foibles, the same weaknesses, suffer from the same logical potholes and fallacies that normal people are plagued with and, most of the time, in an even greater degree. They may get close to the same knowledge that readers are privy to, but don't ever get to know the same thing as we do. They have to go through lengthy processes, faulty info, doubtful testimonies and outright obstacles that only serve to paint a picture one color at a time; and they can't ever possibly know the true feelings and overall history of the characters they meet, they can't get into the heads of the characters the same way we do. Their judgement will always be clouded by doubt, rules, past encounters and whatever latest revelation entails. We don't know what the detective has seen or been through, nor do we know what he's been told about the case, he just has the testimonies of the parents, classmates and the teacher that won't even say anything that could potentially be harmful to them.
We must also remember that, in real life police cases, most kidnappings aren't the happy or goofy things we see in fiction: they're frightening situations that can, in the best of cases, seriously traumatize the people in question and in the worst cases outright ruin or end their lives. Not to mention that a key thing to bear in mind while dealing with kidnappings is that time is of the essence; evidence erodes rather quickly, the kidnappers can easily harm the victim at any moment for any reason and, even if they don't, the longer they spend through this whole ordeal the worse they're gonna be once it ends due to the trauma. So far Sachi has been kidnapped for quite a long time and the evidence they got is as hot as it's gonna get, which also means that the kidnapper is aware of it too, so they have to act quickly before something happens.
Another thing we must remember is that, unlike in fiction world, plot twists don't happen that often, if at all. A kidnapper isn't gonna have tea parties with the victim or solve their emotional issues the same way as when we see a grey fin emerging from the sea we're not gonna assume it's a guy playing an elaborate prank or a friendly dolphin that learned a new way to swim and wants to play with us, if we see a fin we're gonna assume it's a freaking shark and we're gonna scream and panic all the way to the shore. Sure, the granny might have told them that the "brothers" were grinning ear to ear, but this is the same granny that confused Sachi with a boy, not to mention that the kidnapper could have easily threatened the victim to act as inconspicuous as possible (people can fake smiles y'know). This guy can only act with the knowledge he has about what he knows happens in his society: "Xxx was a lonely girl with no friends or boyfriend, who kept no secrets to her family, who obeyed the rules of society and had no reasons whatsoever to run away from home or her school"; we readers know that's bullshit of the highest degree, but they don't, they only know that at most she was being abused by her teacher but so were other girls who didn't run away. For all they know, Sachi could have either tried to run away to the teacher and only pretended to help the kidnapper once she got caught or simply asked a simple favor from a psychopath; they already said that the testimony from the teacher is faulty at best, but it's the only thing they got. They don't know about the abuse from the parents or the classmates simply because there wasn't a single testimony or evidence about it, same as the nonexistent boyfriend that often happens in WESTERN detective shows (this is Japan y'know).
Not to mention that, good intentions aside, kidnapping is a crime no matter the situation and can only end well once proper procedures are done. Some people may kidnap persons they see as victims of society or bring attention to the victim in order to expose the true criminal, but at the end it's still a crime that can only end with a sentence, be it harsh (jail time for serious kidnapping) or light (a slap on the wrists for good meaning ones). The kidnapper took her out of society and her family without warning and should, if he wants to expose his view, return the girl to the proper authorities with the proper warnings. They ARE cops so they MUST obey the law.
Now, to end this in a high note, I want you all to remember what the detective said at the end "Kidnapper, I don't know what your motive is, but I definitively won't let you get away with it. I will save Xxx". He did not say "I will save Xxx from you (the kidnapper)" but a rather simple "I will save Xxx", meaning that he cares more about making sure the girl is safe than about capturing the culprit and has serious doubts about the whole case; sure enough he said that he won't let him get away with it, but for that you have to see my previous paragraph (kidnapping is a crime y'know).
Well, only thing I can say now, is good job for making it this far. Hope you this covered the whole topic without any need of a follow-up post.
@VladDracul2
I don't know if all this was for me, since you didn't include an @ or my name. However, I do feel this is adressed to me and related to my discussion below so I will respond anyway.
I only saw this since I thought it came a new chapter and got excited... (I do believe on can complain and still enjoy that very same thing).
I don't know if all this was for me, since you didn't include an @ or my name. However, I do feel this is adressed to me and related to my discussion below so I will respond anyway.
I only saw this since I thought it came a new chapter and got excited... (I do believe on can complain and still enjoy that very same thing).
Although, I believe that one could divide your points into two fields: General and Specific.
I do agree with you on the general stuff. So I will not dwelve too much on that. They (can't) doesn't need to be perfect, and their vision of the events is limited unlike us veiwers.
E.g this is why vigilantes will never work on real life. WE as an audience knows everything we need to draw a conclusion that (e.g) 'Batman' is a good guy, but the people in that universe don't.
However, I'm afraid you tried to apply general truth to a very specific story in which I believe this can't be applied.
But instead of going right into it, since I do actually believe that I somewhat talked about it; I want to try to convey you how I feel about this person. And then walk through why I believe "your" general points doesn't really apply here.
Imagine you're watching a House episode. Maybe you haven't seen him, but you know the show is about dr. House solving "mysterious" diseases.
A woman walks in, her stomach is swelling, she has morning sickness and she craves the most unusal food combinations.
House can't for the life of him figure out what is wrong with her.
Now he get the information that she has a boyfriend and they have been doing it without protection for the last months.
Nope, House is still stumped...
But do YOU know what is happening to her?
Spoiler, she is pregnant.
I get that "geniuses" sometimes skip necerssary steps, and that they've flaws like everyone else.
But these flaws often come up in something else then their expertise. House is a grumpy a-hole with a drug addiction.
And some steps are so fundemental that and incoperated into the job that NOT knowing them IS a sin. Since they are missing knowledge that is essential to even do what they do in the first place.
Let countinue with the hospital trend as an example:
Not coming to the conclusion that the women get pregnant as a doctor, that is a sin, Dr Cox (from Scrubs) not knowing that a patient had "rabies" (I think) before it was too late and did a huge (but possible) mistake... Well, if I remember my own example right, "rabies" is apparently rare in the US...
And I would say that not knowing about the concept of "running away" as a detective is MORE sinful than a doctor not knowing about pregnancy.
Since running away is a human respond. It's a huge part of human psychology. And if you as a detective can't even nudge on that possibility, you fail big time. Not just this time, but most likely everytime.
But what about his perspective. His knowledge on all this.
I'd already mentioned two examples to counter this respond. But you weren't happy with them and brought up your own "what ifs".
Sure, I can give you those.
How about the fact that:
1) He knew she was beaten and abused.
2) He knows the parents are lying about her not being home after school.
He even ponders on these two fact (and still doesn't even nudge on the possibility of a runaway)...
And let me ask you this again: WHAT do point out she has been kidnapped in the first place?
We (he) has had five insights:
1) Beaten
2) Lying parents about her being home.
3) Teacher "confession"
You think he might be lying which is possible, but the whole situation in itself (from the detective's perspective) reaks of strangeness.
4) Old lady's testomony.
You made a fair point, I will give you that.
5) He knows she is with someone (right now).
But once again; why kidnapped?
Lets look at all "general" possibilites for cases like these:
1) Kidnapped -from school
2) Parents killed her
3) Runaway -alone
4) Runaway -suicide
5) Runaway -kind soul taking her in
6) Runaway -kidnapped
So why just kidnapped, why must malice had been involved?
I never said that he could still believe that she was kidnapped. But when WE see him getting these great insight (like parents lying of her not being home), THINKING it's strange, and is still not able to think "outside the box" is just weird.
The ONLY thing I could think of that may led to a conclusion of her not running away is her not having friends (anywhere to go).
But that is rather weak excuse to dissmiss a potential runaway (especially since he haven't even THOUGHT of the possibility yet, which IS my issue).
But what would YOU think after having these 5 insights? Not as a reader knowing, but in general after hearing this.
Would you be hardcore on the path of "kidnapped with malice" without even considering the other possibilites?
Let me tell you this, YOU as far as I'm concerned is a normal human being, and yet I believe YOU should have the intelligence to see past certain things. But for this genius detective I should not?
And your highnote... Sorry, but it was kinda weak... I don't want to go to hard on it since I can be "one of those" as well... But at least remember this is a translation where the small stuff can get lost... Especially semantics.
And sorry to inform you that you most likely will have to follow up.
This is a discussion afterall. But if you don't want to, hey, I don't blame you.
Ps. I understand why you put "spoilers" on something that didn't spoil...
I do agree with you on the general stuff. So I will not dwelve too much on that. They (can't) doesn't need to be perfect, and their vision of the events is limited unlike us veiwers.
E.g this is why vigilantes will never work on real life. WE as an audience knows everything we need to draw a conclusion that (e.g) 'Batman' is a good guy, but the people in that universe don't.
However, I'm afraid you tried to apply general truth to a very specific story in which I believe this can't be applied.
But instead of going right into it, since I do actually believe that I somewhat talked about it; I want to try to convey you how I feel about this person. And then walk through why I believe "your" general points doesn't really apply here.
Imagine you're watching a House episode. Maybe you haven't seen him, but you know the show is about dr. House solving "mysterious" diseases.
A woman walks in, her stomach is swelling, she has morning sickness and she craves the most unusal food combinations.
House can't for the life of him figure out what is wrong with her.
Now he get the information that she has a boyfriend and they have been doing it without protection for the last months.
Nope, House is still stumped...
But do YOU know what is happening to her?
Spoiler, she is pregnant.
I get that "geniuses" sometimes skip necerssary steps, and that they've flaws like everyone else.
But these flaws often come up in something else then their expertise. House is a grumpy a-hole with a drug addiction.
And some steps are so fundemental that and incoperated into the job that NOT knowing them IS a sin. Since they are missing knowledge that is essential to even do what they do in the first place.
Let countinue with the hospital trend as an example:
Not coming to the conclusion that the women get pregnant as a doctor, that is a sin, Dr Cox (from Scrubs) not knowing that a patient had "rabies" (I think) before it was too late and did a huge (but possible) mistake... Well, if I remember my own example right, "rabies" is apparently rare in the US...
And I would say that not knowing about the concept of "running away" as a detective is MORE sinful than a doctor not knowing about pregnancy.
Since running away is a human respond. It's a huge part of human psychology. And if you as a detective can't even nudge on that possibility, you fail big time. Not just this time, but most likely everytime.
But what about his perspective. His knowledge on all this.
I'd already mentioned two examples to counter this respond. But you weren't happy with them and brought up your own "what ifs".
Sure, I can give you those.
How about the fact that:
1) He knew she was beaten and abused.
2) He knows the parents are lying about her not being home after school.
He even ponders on these two fact (and still doesn't even nudge on the possibility of a runaway)...
And let me ask you this again: WHAT do point out she has been kidnapped in the first place?
We (he) has had five insights:
1) Beaten
2) Lying parents about her being home.
3) Teacher "confession"
You think he might be lying which is possible, but the whole situation in itself (from the detective's perspective) reaks of strangeness.
4) Old lady's testomony.
You made a fair point, I will give you that.
5) He knows she is with someone (right now).
But once again; why kidnapped?
Lets look at all "general" possibilites for cases like these:
1) Kidnapped -from school
2) Parents killed her
3) Runaway -alone
4) Runaway -suicide
5) Runaway -kind soul taking her in
6) Runaway -kidnapped
So why just kidnapped, why must malice had been involved?
I never said that he could still believe that she was kidnapped. But when WE see him getting these great insight (like parents lying of her not being home), THINKING it's strange, and is still not able to think "outside the box" is just weird.
The ONLY thing I could think of that may led to a conclusion of her not running away is her not having friends (anywhere to go).
But that is rather weak excuse to dissmiss a potential runaway (especially since he haven't even THOUGHT of the possibility yet, which IS my issue).
But what would YOU think after having these 5 insights? Not as a reader knowing, but in general after hearing this.
Would you be hardcore on the path of "kidnapped with malice" without even considering the other possibilites?
Let me tell you this, YOU as far as I'm concerned is a normal human being, and yet I believe YOU should have the intelligence to see past certain things. But for this genius detective I should not?
And your highnote... Sorry, but it was kinda weak... I don't want to go to hard on it since I can be "one of those" as well... But at least remember this is a translation where the small stuff can get lost... Especially semantics.
And sorry to inform you that you most likely will have to follow up.
This is a discussion afterall. But if you don't want to, hey, I don't blame you.
Ps. I understand why you put "spoilers" on something that didn't spoil...
