Shiawase ni Narunosa! - Vol. 1 Ch. 4
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There is a subset of BL that is indeed self-insert girl proxy.
It’s a means of exploring sexuality with a sense of distance. This is understandable in a society that teaches fuckall about sex and shelters girls.
But I don’t wanna see it.
You’re taking the reductio ad absurdum in the wrong direction. You’re removing the authorial intent from the equation.
Most of the proxy stuff has been shunted off into omegaverse madness (which is some extra-terrestrial madness. That’s not gay. That’s not even humans).
It still exists, though. A manga I came across, and actually bought the first volume of in Japanese, started out great, but the uke slowly morphed into a girl. Curves, mannerisms, facial balance... the level of _stereotypical_ girliness was on bargain basement shoujo level!
HE SHRANK!!! He started out as a perfectly normal soft boy!
This isn’t that bad, but it’s in that camp.
It’s a means of exploring sexuality with a sense of distance. This is understandable in a society that teaches fuckall about sex and shelters girls.
But I don’t wanna see it.
You’re taking the reductio ad absurdum in the wrong direction. You’re removing the authorial intent from the equation.
Most of the proxy stuff has been shunted off into omegaverse madness (which is some extra-terrestrial madness. That’s not gay. That’s not even humans).
It still exists, though. A manga I came across, and actually bought the first volume of in Japanese, started out great, but the uke slowly morphed into a girl. Curves, mannerisms, facial balance... the level of _stereotypical_ girliness was on bargain basement shoujo level!
HE SHRANK!!! He started out as a perfectly normal soft boy!
This isn’t that bad, but it’s in that camp.
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@Thrembs:
Super-belatedly (I'm re-reading this now and I wasn't @-ed so had no idea I had a response half a year ago XD), I certainly do believe that authorial intent (and/or the apparent fingerprints thereof), matter as far as the moral implications of writing go. Yet, I'm not convinced "this dude is basically a lady" has any real moral implications here? (If so they would seem to be subtle?) To be clear, it can certainly be bad writing in some cases. But it had seemed to me like insisting that "girls be depicted like girls" and "guys be depicted like guys" instead, would actually present an ethical problem (reinforcing gender stereotypes and/or invalidating various sorts of gender-expression outside one's gender)—thus, to say "it isn't gay because it doesn't look gay" seemed potentially problematic to me.
None of which is to say that reading this needs to be your thing. And I think I get what you were saying (e.g. "I am dubious of the claim that this is representatively gay, and this relationship that appears strikingly similar to a heterosexual one is not what I am here for"), but that's not how it parsed for me. Er, six months ago, that is. Though I guess I still think the phrasing choice is questionable.
(Having said all that, honestly, the protagonist here didn't seem particularly girly to me. But that's entirely besides the point XD)
(Side note: Yaoi being an exploration of sexuality at a "comfortable distance" is a sort of horrible thought that I had not been explicitly introduced to, given the rampant toxic thinking and hand-waving of consent problems in the genre... yikes.)
Anyway, feel free to ignore this as I'm sure this response is past some statute of limitations or some-such ^^;
Super-belatedly (I'm re-reading this now and I wasn't @-ed so had no idea I had a response half a year ago XD), I certainly do believe that authorial intent (and/or the apparent fingerprints thereof), matter as far as the moral implications of writing go. Yet, I'm not convinced "this dude is basically a lady" has any real moral implications here? (If so they would seem to be subtle?) To be clear, it can certainly be bad writing in some cases. But it had seemed to me like insisting that "girls be depicted like girls" and "guys be depicted like guys" instead, would actually present an ethical problem (reinforcing gender stereotypes and/or invalidating various sorts of gender-expression outside one's gender)—thus, to say "it isn't gay because it doesn't look gay" seemed potentially problematic to me.
None of which is to say that reading this needs to be your thing. And I think I get what you were saying (e.g. "I am dubious of the claim that this is representatively gay, and this relationship that appears strikingly similar to a heterosexual one is not what I am here for"), but that's not how it parsed for me. Er, six months ago, that is. Though I guess I still think the phrasing choice is questionable.
(Having said all that, honestly, the protagonist here didn't seem particularly girly to me. But that's entirely besides the point XD)
(Side note: Yaoi being an exploration of sexuality at a "comfortable distance" is a sort of horrible thought that I had not been explicitly introduced to, given the rampant toxic thinking and hand-waving of consent problems in the genre... yikes.)
Anyway, feel free to ignore this as I'm sure this response is past some statute of limitations or some-such ^^;
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@Pokari
Sorry for no @.
My phrasing can be pretty harsh on this, but I hate bad representation. I can’t read most yuri because it’s so ethereal and detached from reality. As a lesbian it’s just really unappealing. The really old-school stuff has them stop being a thing and move on to men half the time. Eesh...
And yeah, Japan has women-only train cars for a reason: sexual assault of various kinds is that common. In many ways a date rapist will be seen as “an asshole” instead of “a criminal”. That’s improving a lot, though.
I understand some fujoshi needing some kind of outlet for being sexual people but in a world where sex is scary. It can just be a bit unfair to actual gay men (and there is a bit of a knock-on effect for lesbians).
I can soapbox a bit much, but I’ve experienced a lot of homophobia and if I perceive anything similar I can get pretty snippy.
Sorry for no @.
My phrasing can be pretty harsh on this, but I hate bad representation. I can’t read most yuri because it’s so ethereal and detached from reality. As a lesbian it’s just really unappealing. The really old-school stuff has them stop being a thing and move on to men half the time. Eesh...
And yeah, Japan has women-only train cars for a reason: sexual assault of various kinds is that common. In many ways a date rapist will be seen as “an asshole” instead of “a criminal”. That’s improving a lot, though.
I understand some fujoshi needing some kind of outlet for being sexual people but in a world where sex is scary. It can just be a bit unfair to actual gay men (and there is a bit of a knock-on effect for lesbians).
I can soapbox a bit much, but I’ve experienced a lot of homophobia and if I perceive anything similar I can get pretty snippy.
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