Futoku no Guild - Vol. 15 Ch. 85 - Waking From A Dream

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that necromancer is looking like the scummiest one kinda
If only Hades could force them to see what he had to suffer at the hands of the villagers Kikuru and his people are hellbent on protecting; what makes it all so much worse is that Hades didn't get started until they put a hit out on Fone.
he literally could share his memories with everyone if he wanted to though, which he does in this chapter with wanda
 
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Hem

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Thanks for the chapter, Kredim.



Goddamnit, San--not you too. :|

I know that she has no reason not to be in the self-righteous goody-goody group Kikuru's a part of, but it still hurts to see. If only Hades could force them to see what he had to suffer at the hands of the villagers Kikuru and his people are hellbent on protecting; what makes it all so much worse is that Hades didn't get started until they put a hit out on Fone.

Speaking of, exactly how are Kikuru and his group still fighting with full willpower? Have they been made aware of nothing the reader knows (e.g., the assassination of Fone)? Are they questioning nothing at all, doing nothing more than occasionally frowning and navelgazing emptyheadedly? Fone's killer effectively confessed his guilt at least twice, and Kikuru's group not only felt the need to protect that illusionist, they--especially Kikuru, who automatically attacked upon sighting an opening--still have hostile bearing toward Hades. Is the only solution Hades ending up exactly as Fone did--killed for feelings?

I remember someone arguing well against the points I brought up--that person got me to reconsider my perspective of this situation a bit. I don't remember who it was, but I remember the main thing that got me to think twice was the indiscriminate nature of Hades' attack. Now, I wonder how any of what I was told can hold up after all we've seen--especially since the guilt of the villagers who started this mess is repeatedly revealed (albeit piecemeal) to Kikuru's group as well, and they just protected an individual who made it clear how much he earned the death he was about to get.

Fone was a victim, and now the people expect to make Hades one, too. Who was he supposed to go to for redress in the first place--the people who wanted him dead in the past or the people now trying to kill him?
This is pretty simple, if a bear murdered a bunch of humans we'd still put down the bear even if most of the humans the bear killed had previously raped and murdered the bear's family after chasing the bear out of it's own forest.

Hades is killing humans, Guards protect human lives and report criminals to the authorities, the authorities then punish the criminals.
Just like the Spellsword guy that Kikuru handed over to the police from the Monkey King Arc.

Only the government can decide when killing humans is allowed or forgivable - because the Government can kill or imprison anyone that tries to impede it or act in retribution.

Hades, to the government, is just a monster.

Kikuru could in theory tell everyone to stand back and let Hades do what he wants but then Kikuru would let all of the damage and any innocent people that died (even if only on accident) be the fault of his inaction and he perhaps could get himself or his allies in trouble depending on how negligent he appears (at worst some people might claim he HELPED Hades if they are somehow made aware that Kikuru was in contact with Hades).

For what it's worth, a good amount of Kikuru's group - including Kikuru himself - don't really care about the old people and wouldn't actually put their life on the line for the old people if they weren't currently locked in mortal combat with Hades and there was no harm to innocents/collateral damage.

Hades has already killed Guards like Kikuru that were simply protecting the village, most likely at least one uninvolved innocent has died, and tons of collateral damage has been taken by the village/town/city.

Really, Because Hades is an intelligent and powerful monster - he should have tried appealing to the government with the two police women's help. The old people would probably get away with most of their actions - but the Reaper and Wanda would be convicted of murder.

And nothing really stops Hades from going after the old people in a less flashy way later if he didn't like results of the government's actions... but the story will uncover more of Hades' actual mindset in the later chapters and why he went in to the extreme.
 
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Atp everyone from the village should die. What the fuck are they yapping about? It's all their fault. They should all die. The old people should die slowly and painfully. Poor fone. The illusionist can die quickly. The guards can die fighting. The old people must die. I will sneak into the author's house and jizz in his coffee if he didn't kill off the old people.
images
 
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that necromancer is looking like the sc

he literally could share his memories with everyone if he wanted to though, which he does in this chapter with wanda

I thought that that was single-target--that's why I said what I did. Hem's response after yours gets me thinking that it would not change much, however.

This is pretty simple, if a bear murdered a bunch of humans we'd still put down the bear even if most of the humans the bear killed had previously raped and murdered the bear's family after chasing the bear out of it's own forest.

Hades is killing humans, Guards protect human lives and report criminals to the authorities, the authorities then punish the criminals.
Just like the Spellsword guy that Kikuru handed over to the police from the Monkey King Arc.

Only the government can decide when killing humans is allowed or forgivable - because the Government can kill or imprison anyone that tries to impede it or act in retribution.

Hades, to the government, is just a monster.

Kikuru could in theory tell everyone to stand back and let Hades do what he wants but then Kikuru would let all of the damage and any innocent people that died (even if only on accident) be the fault of his inaction and he perhaps could get himself or his allies in trouble depending on how negligent he appears (at worst some people might claim he HELPED Hades if they are somehow made aware that Kikuru was in contact with Hades).

For what it's worth, a good amount of Kikuru's group - including Kikuru himself - don't really care about the old people and wouldn't actually put their life on the line for the old people if they weren't currently locked in mortal combat with Hades and there was no harm to innocents/collateral damage.

Hades has already killed Guards like Kikuru that were simply protecting the village, most likely at least one uninvolved innocent has died, and tons of collateral damage has been taken by the village/town/city.

Really, Because Hades is an intelligent and powerful monster - he should have tried appealing to the government with the two police women's help. The old people would probably get away with most of their actions - but the Reaper and Wanda would be convicted of murder.

And nothing really stops Hades from going after the old people in a less flashy way later if he didn't like results of the government's actions... but the story will uncover more of Hades' actual mindset in the later chapters and why he went in to the extreme.

You made a lot of good points--the two biggest ones, in my opinion, are the government's potentially regarding Hades and his kind as nothing more than (exceptionally powerful) monsters and Kikuru and the applicable members of his group being charged with dereliction of their duty as guards.

It paints quite the ugly picture, however.

See, I didn't think that Hades would be so belittled when his kind are considered "gods". (Or the equivalent of what the Japanese term kami refers to, if it was used here--i.e., venerable spirits. The distinction is important because you have entities like Zenith and Phoenizaku, and then you have the "local 'gods'" and others: though Hades functions similarly to one, deriving power from faith, and not seeming to have had mundane origins like the previous god Kikuru faced--and killed.) Not only are they so considered, but they're venerated accordingly--it was shown in this chapter via the flashback, and early on through the depiction of a shrine with an image dedicated to a local god. Based on what I'd seen, post-giant-strawberry civilization is built on and around mysticism that directly involves these gods (with Zenith and Phoenizaku at the center, apparently). If things are as you say, then that reverence is something society--particularly the movers and shakers at the top--can cast away arbitrarily.

Then again, maybe that's the point: maybe these gods are "gods" until they're not.
That was exactly what that flashback proved. That said, I agree--Hades should have been smarter and thus much more precise in his action, but that's the only fault I can assign to him: with how the humans he directly protected turned on him despite their life debt, could he be confident that bringing his grievances to their government would produce suitable redress? Wouldn't his troubles as an intelligent being be important until they're disregarded as the snarling of a subhuman beast, the same way?
 
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I thought that that was single-target--that's why I said what I did. Hem's response after yours gets me thinking that it would not change much, however.
he uses it in 74 to give the memories to four people at once, i assume the idea behind the spell is giving a whole jury a direct view of what happened

well hes talked to them so at this point he doesnt think they dont get where hes coming from and gets that they disagree regardless

as for talking to the police theres one TINY factor thats easy to miss, the village betrayal gave him malice towards people, assuming its something he couldnt get rid of it would actually prevent him from entering any of the towns to talk to anyone which is probably part of why he made his abduction from so far below ground, he needed to be outside the wards range himself
 

Hem

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I thought that that was single-target--that's why I said what I did. Hem's response after yours gets me thinking that it would not change much, however.



You made a lot of good points--the two biggest ones, in my opinion, are the government's potentially regarding Hades and his kind as nothing more than (exceptionally powerful) monsters and Kikuru and the applicable members of his group being charged with dereliction of their duty as guards.

It paints quite the ugly picture, however.

See, I didn't think that Hades would be so belittled when his kind are considered "gods". (Or the equivalent of what the Japanese term kami refers to, if it was used here--i.e., venerable spirits. The distinction is important because you have entities like Zenith and Phoenizaku, and then you have the "local 'gods'" and others: though Hades functions similarly to one, deriving power from faith, and not seeming to have had mundane origins like the previous god Kikuru faced--and killed.) Not only are they so considered, but they're venerated accordingly--it was shown in this chapter via the flashback, and early on through the depiction of a shrine with an image dedicated to a local god. Based on what I'd seen, post-giant-strawberry civilization is built on and around mysticism that directly involves these gods (with Zenith and Phoenizaku at the center, apparently). If things are as you say, then that reverence is something society--particularly the movers and shakers at the top--can cast away arbitrarily.

Then again, maybe that's the point: maybe these gods are "gods" until they're not.
That was exactly what that flashback proved. That said, I agree--Hades should have been smarter and thus much more precise in his action, but that's the only fault I can assign to him: with how the humans he directly protected turned on him despite their life debt, could he be confident that bringing his grievances to their government would produce suitable redress? Wouldn't his troubles as an intelligent being be important until they're disregarded as the snarling of a subhuman beast, the same way?
he uses it in 74 to give the memories to four people at once, i assume the idea behind the spell is giving a whole jury a direct view of what happened

well hes talked to them so at this point he doesnt think they dont get where hes coming from and gets that they disagree regardless

as for talking to the police theres one TINY factor thats easy to miss, the village betrayal gave him malice towards people, assuming its something he couldnt get rid of it would actually prevent him from entering any of the towns to talk to anyone which is probably part of why he made his abduction from so far below ground, he needed to be outside the wards range himself
There seems to be "world" level gods and "local" gods.
It seems that "world" level gods were created by human awe, fear, faith, and perhaps negative emotions.
That Zeus-like god - Zenith - that is married to Enome was formed from a cloud after enough Human faith was pointed towards the world or whatever (he himself explains it in a previous chapter, do check to make sure he wasn't a monster before).

"Local" level gods like the Twin foxes that now sexually harass Hitamuki+protect Kikuru's town (Mebuki, I think), Shock (True's partner the dragon or Salamander), and Hades (a Mole monster) are Monster's that through faith became "gods".
Hades was even given the ability to change into human form through Human faith and reverence - remember that Hades can change his body parts (arms/claws) into his previous Mole shape too.
There perhaps is the chance that some "world" level gods were previously monsters too, I don't know if that will be the case.

This is also kind of like Japanese Shinto Faith, where there are "river" gods, "rice" gods, "spider" gods, "flower" gods, "mountain" gods, etc that the people may worship, thank, throw festivals to appease, or even fear - but the people would not be against sealing away or tossing aside those same gods if circumstances dictate that the god must be discarded/slain.

"Named" Monsters appear to be powerful monsters formed through mutations, stray faith/human emotions flowing throughout the world, or the World-level gods themselves allow "Named" to be created for some reason.
The "Named" that eventually learn to communicate and literally name themselves seem to become much stronger than the "Named" that are more intelligent than their base species but never learn to communicate.

Anyway, after saying all that "useful" monsters like Seitan (San's sloth friend), Shock, and Kazenbo's soul are given "rights" by the government and are even recognized as "humans" if they behave properly.
Seitan is under San's guardianship and his actions are her responsibility until he proves himself to be worthy of the government's trust.
The same for local "gods" who are given a bit of special treatment until they do something that harms the people.

After-all, when a human kills a human, that human is punished. (Unless the government has a reason to overlook the murder, that reason could be good or bad.)

"Named" are just dangerous monsters that are to be put down like any other potentially dangerous monster until special circumstances prove otherwise.

Hades being in a human shape, speaking human words, and having had TWO police officers investigate what was going on, would have gotten the government to listen to him.
Those two women came BEFORE Hades had done any harm to humanity and Hades was NOT on a time limit, he could have at least tried. AND NOTHING would stop him from still rampaging if the government didn't do enough in his opinion afterward - unless he was dumb enough to say "punish them the way I want or I'll kill humans." Hades isn't that stupid.
Because of the Time mage, they probably wouldn't even need Hades to testify.

Perhaps Hades would have NOT been able to get the government to listen to him before the police officers showed up (because the monster wards react to him) but I bet if he contacted enough humans/guards without causing them harm, eventually someone would have said "Maybe we should investigate his claims." - Again remember, Hades is in a HUMAN form, he's not a giant talking monkey or a weird looking Mole-man.

In the scenario where Hades did not wait for the Policewomen to show up before trying to contact humanity - There is the chance that the old people could catch wind of it and would send guards to provoke Hades or tell outrageous lies to try to get the government to make hasty actions, but that just depends on luck or if Hades was smart enough to ask for help in a region that was outside of the old people's reach/influence (Like the Tanuki beast girl "Pon" or whatever her name is).
 
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Hem

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I'm surprised this manga didn't get DMCA'd. Not complaining, but still surprised.
It might be, K-manga translates this, and I think it's a "Square-Enix" published manga.
I think "Saki" is a "Square-Enix" published manga too and it was taken down.

They probably simply forgot to name this Manga when DMCAing and might request it to be taken down later.
 
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Thanks for the chapter, Kredim.



Goddamnit, San--not you too. :|

I know that she has no reason not to be in the self-righteous goody-goody group Kikuru's a part of, but it still hurts to see. If only Hades could force them to see what he had to suffer at the hands of the villagers Kikuru and his people are hellbent on protecting; what makes it all so much worse is that Hades didn't get started until they put a hit out on Fone.

Speaking of, exactly how are Kikuru and his group still fighting with full willpower? Have they been made aware of nothing the reader knows (e.g., the assassination of Fone)? Are they questioning nothing at all, doing nothing more than occasionally frowning and navelgazing emptyheadedly? Fone's killer effectively confessed his guilt at least twice, and Kikuru's group not only felt the need to protect that illusionist, they--especially Kikuru, who automatically attacked upon sighting an opening--still have hostile bearing toward Hades. Is the only solution Hades ending up exactly as Fone did--killed for feelings?

I remember someone arguing well against the points I brought up--that person got me to reconsider my perspective of this situation a bit. I don't remember who it was, but I remember the main thing that got me to think twice was the indiscriminate nature of Hades' attack. Now, I wonder how any of what I was told can hold up after all we've seen--especially since the guilt of the villagers who started this mess is repeatedly revealed (albeit piecemeal) to Kikuru's group as well, and they just protected an individual who made it clear how much he earned the death he was about to get.

Fone was a victim, and now the people expect to make Hades one, too. Who was he supposed to go to for redress in the first place--the people who wanted him dead in the past or the people now trying to kill him?
Hades has gone rogue. So as guards Kikuru & co moved to subdue him. No matter how good or justified Hades' motives. Just like that named baboon who originally want to protect other monster
 
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Looks like lil shortstack needs even more correction don't think i forgot how you killed his followers last time

San is making it really hard to defend, each time she shows up she digs herself in a deeper hole, and if she gets seriously injured or worse, she is bringing it onto herself
 
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That "Don't think killing someone will give you the result you want" line from page 26 really annoy me.
Really, Because Hades is an intelligent and powerful monster - he should have tried appealing to the government with the two police women's help. The old people would probably get away with most of their actions - but the Reaper and Wanda would be convicted of murder.

And nothing really stops Hades from going after the old people in a less flashy way later if he didn't like results of the government's actions... but the story will uncover more of Hades' actual mindset in the later chapters and why he went in to the extreme.
Monster appealing to government seems like a bad idea, especially when the latter think you should die

And it also seems like a good way to make sure the guards are even more prepared for an attack
 
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Can someone please remind me why those ungrateful old geezer wanted to kill Fone? I forgot since this arc was so long
 
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There seems to be "world" level gods and "local" gods.
It seems that "world" level gods were created by human awe, fear, faith, and perhaps negative emotions.
That Zeus-like god - Zenith - that is married to Enome was formed from a cloud after enough Human faith was pointed towards the world or whatever (he himself explains it in a previous chapter, do check to make sure he wasn't a monster before).

"Local" level gods like the Twin foxes that now sexually harass Hitamuki+protect Kikuru's town (Mebuki, I think), Shock (True's partner the dragon or Salamander), and Hades (a Mole monster) are Monster's that through faith became "gods".
Hades was even given the ability to change into human form through Human faith and reverence - remember that Hades can change his body parts (arms/claws) into his previous Mole shape too.
There perhaps is the chance that some "world" level gods were previously monsters too, I don't know if that will be the case.

This is also kind of like Japanese Shinto Faith, where there are "river" gods, "rice" gods, "spider" gods, "flower" gods, "mountain" gods, etc that the people may worship, thank, throw festivals to appease, or even fear - but the people would not be against sealing away or tossing aside those same gods if circumstances dictate that the god must be discarded/slain.

"Named" Monsters appear to be powerful monsters formed through mutations, stray faith/human emotions flowing throughout the world, or the World-level gods themselves allow "Named" to be created for some reason.
The "Named" that eventually learn to communicate and literally name themselves seem to become much stronger than the "Named" that are more intelligent than their base species but never learn to communicate.

Anyway, after saying all that "useful" monsters like Seitan (San's sloth friend), Shock, and Kazenbo's soul are given "rights" by the government and are even recognized as "humans" if they behave properly.
Seitan is under San's guardianship and his actions are her responsibility until he proves himself to be worthy of the government's trust.
The same for local "gods" who are given a bit of special treatment until they do something that harms the people.

After-all, when a human kills a human, that human is punished. (Unless the government has a reason to overlook the murder, that reason could be good or bad.)

"Named" are just dangerous monsters that are to be put down like any other potentially dangerous monster until special circumstances prove otherwise.

Hades being in a human shape, speaking human words, and having had TWO police officers investigate what was going on, would have gotten the government to listen to him.
Those two women came BEFORE Hades had done any harm to humanity and Hades was NOT on a time limit, he could have at least tried. AND NOTHING would stop him from still rampaging if the government didn't do enough in his opinion afterward - unless he was dumb enough to say "punish them the way I want or I'll kill humans." Hades isn't that stupid.
Because of the Time mage, they probably wouldn't even need Hades to testify.

Perhaps Hades would have NOT been able to get the government to listen to him before the police officers showed up (because the monster wards react to him) but I bet if he contacted enough humans/guards without causing them harm, eventually someone would have said "Maybe we should investigate his claims." - Again remember, Hades is in a HUMAN form, he's not a giant talking monkey or a weird looking Mole-man.

In the scenario where Hades did not wait for the Policewomen to show up before trying to contact humanity - There is the chance that the old people could catch wind of it and would send guards to provoke Hades or tell outrageous lies to try to get the government to make hasty actions, but that just depends on luck or if Hades was smart enough to ask for help in a region that was outside of the old people's reach/influence (Like the Tanuki beast girl "Pon" or whatever her name is).
meidena explained it in 60, Zenith is a god whos entire existence was created purely from faith, all the other known gods like pheonizaku were made from people worshipping a monster until it became a god


@RoyLanD20

they thought that Hades intended to get revenge on the village for what they did, believing that Fone was his sole believer they thought killing her would turn him back into just a named that would be a lot easier to kill than a god
 

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