Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi o Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 42 - The Uprising of the Nosey Girls

[peortega1]

Not just that, in Koisuru Metronome he also kept referencing his previous series.

Yes, that is my point. This is not the first time of Maruto making this kind of references. So, definitely helps us to understand better Yami personality if she is really a fangirl of Utaha and if she is deliberately imitate her.
And of course, my already mentioned thesis: Ayami/Kamiya knows she has won and is the girlfriend of Yuu in this point, because his real type of ideal women (much more like Miyako Shikimori the jealous yandere, or Megumi Katou the "boring girlfriend") still never appeared, and she waits that girl never appears and meets Yuu.
Her advices to Hikari are basically Utaha trying to say Eriri how to seduce and flirt with Tomoya in Saekano.

 

[UdenEmpati]

Yes there are "reasons", but they are dogshit reasons. As somebody who has also dealt with trauma and mental health issues, that is absolutely not an excuse for what she did, and I personally find it disgusting when people try to use mental health issues as a justification for awful behaviour. You can push somebody away without putting them in genuine danger (I'd call that a bit more than just "tasteless", but whatever), and you can end a relationship without leaving the other person essentially in limbo.

Where did @outinthegardener say they were justifying Ayami's behavior? They said there were reasons for it. That's not justifying it, merely explaining that it makes sense why she did it, as abhorrent as the actions were.

Honestly, at this point it seems like some people are conflating "understanding" with "condoning".
You can say you understand why someone did something contextually based on other cues in the narrative of their story, without condoning those actions.

 

[IotaCS]

Do you know these words applies exactly equal with Hikari, not?

The discussion was initially over people using Yuu's cowardice to label him as a piece of shit, so Hikari was not relevant. But yes, she has a lot of her own similar issues.

And of course, Hikari caused harm to Yuu because she never noticed his feelings and much less give him an appropiated response to his feelings, positive or negative.

Not sure I can agree here. What is she supposed to give a response to when he never expressed his feelings? That shit goes both ways, you can't expect people to read minds. Neither one had confessed, so neither one can give any response until somebody works up the courage to actually take that first step.

This is the reason why he feels he need to confess her and being rejected to be able to get over her at least and follow with his life. Yes, he was a coward to don´t confess her anyway, but when all the fucking middle school was able to note Yuu being in love with Hikari and her not, definitely is a failure of her as friend to him.

The people closest to you are often the last to notice that sort of thing in my experience. Somebody made a good point earlier in the thread (I think it might've been @HellJester but I'd have to go back and check) that Yuu had been slowly starting to suspect that Hikari might confess at the festival, and when she didn't he panicked. I think that's more likely the reason for him feeling like he had to confess right then.

===

I'm too lazy to MTL the webnovel chapter but in Chapter 40 of the manga page 4 Yuu says "To think, Yami-senpai, you are the 'Aya-chan' that Hikari always talked about..." <--This is the first point I'm aware of that Yuu realized Yami-senpai = Aya-chan and that she friends/best friends with Hikari.

Thanks for checking, I'd totally forgotten what was actually said in that conversation. So yeah, he 100% knew at that point and has no excuse for not telling Hikari.

 

[Apep23]

Office : we completely wrecked the main couple here what should we do?
Author : meh, give one more chick and potentially the new friends too

 

[GennArc]

Yes, that is my point. This is not the first time of Maruto making this kind of references. So, definitely helps us to understand better Yami personality if she is really a fangirl of Utaha and if she is deliberately imitate her.
And of course, my already mentioned thesis: Ayami/Kamiya knows she has won and is the girlfriend of Yuu in this point, because his real type of ideal women (much more like Miyako Shikimori the jealous yandere, or Megumi Katou the "boring girlfriend") still never appeared, and she waits that girl never appears and meets Yuu.

I don't think those references mean anything, they are just for fun, just like they were in KM.
I also don't think Yami resembles or imitates Utaha, or Kamiya from Shikimori-san, or Kazusa from White Album 2. One might find some parallels, just like you could find parallels with other love triangles, but the bottom line is they are completely different characters with different personalities and different problems.

Her advices to Hikari are basically Utaha trying to say Eriri how to seduce and flirt with Tomoya in Saekano.

Except Yami actually had a relationship with Yuu and actually did "bind him with her body", unlike Utaha who never did anything. So Yami was at least partially speaking from experience, while Utaha only based it on her ideas (and also partly on making fun of Eriri).

 

[peortega1]

Not sure I can agree here. What is she supposed to give a response to when he never expressed his feelings? That shit goes both ways, you can't expect people to read minds. Neither one had confessed, so neither one can give any response until somebody works up the courage to actually take that first step.

We are talking about the cowardice of Yuu and Hikari about being unable of saying things. Yes, she was not forced to give him a response if she didn´t know about Yuu feelings... and he is not forced to say her about an ex-girlfriend until he as know, probably Hikari doesn´t meet her even if Yami finally returned to school.

The people closest to you are often the last to notice that sort of thing in my experience.

Maybe, but definitely in this case is very clear Hikari in middle school was not interested on romance and rejected other confessions too and even try to make Yuu would date other girls who asked help to her to get a date with him. And yes, this is important: Ayami doesn´t just come in the lowest moment of Yuu, is not just her offer being so ridicuously direct literally proposing have sex, is also the thing of her being much more similar to the real likings of Yuu (a dominant assertive girl, as Haruki with Kazusa; and Izumi with Shikimori & Kamiya)
Yuu, like Tomoya with Eriri, definitely wanted Hikari would be more assertive and determined, more disposed to carry the pants in the relationship, and how he would say, "I want she protect me".

Yuu had been slowly starting to suspect that Hikari might confess at the festival, and when she didn't he panicked. I think that's more likely the reason for him feeling like he had to confess right then.

I´m agree, also, all these years of being unable to confess her, securely reforced his feeling of "is now or never, I prefer being rejected now, than never say nothing", and anyway, Hikari rejected his clumsy tries to procastinate again and carry him to the dance first and later the gym, just to repent in the last minute.

Thanks for checking, I'd totally forgotten what was actually said in that conversation. So yeah, he 100% knew at that point and has no excuse for not telling Hikari.

Yes, this is the reason why he thinks "I am the worst" in the Web Novel when Hikari calls him "liar" and punches him to the floor (even if she anyway didn´t say nothing him for the kiss even when he asked her if she felt bad). Other typical phrase he shares with Haruki Kitahara... and Yuu Izumi.

 

[HellJester]

I am not sure why you're even worried about this. When someone doesn't want to reply to you, that just means you likely wouldn't even have a good discussion with them anyway. And those reactions mean nothing at all.
I just keep talking to people who are willing to discuss the series.

This is the main reason I almost never add a reaction to what someone posts whether it's to agree or disagree. I think I've only done it once. I would rather discuss than leave a reaction as it's too easy to misinterpret a reaction.

Someone might post a lengthy response and I agree with 99% of it but think 1% of it is the dumbest thing I've ever heard...or 75/25, etc. If I leave a thumbs up reaction I don't want others to see it and go "wtf why is he agreeing with that post when they said something x or y or z".

I also don't like leaving reactions as some of them are just mean and life is hard enough without being mean on the internet. That might make me naive but I'd rather be seen as naive than mean.

The discussion was initially over people using Yuu's cowardice to label him as a piece of shit, so Hikari was not relevant. But yes, she has a lot of her own similar issues.

The people closest to you are often the last to notice that sort of thing in my experience. Somebody made a good point earlier in the thread (I think it might've been @HellJester but I'd have to go back and check) that Yuu had been slowly starting to suspect that Hikari might confess at the festival, and when she didn't he panicked. I think that's more likely the reason for him feeling like he had to confess right then.

===

Thanks for checking, I'd totally forgotten what was actually said in that conversation. So yeah, he 100% knew at that point and has no excuse for not telling Hikari.

Going back to the Yuu is a piece of shit argument that some people have been making (in my defense I don't believe I've called him a piece of shit I just stated I disliked him - though I flip flop on that more than a politician). I think some of it is just standard internet hyperbole. It's easier/faster to just leave a blanket statement than to type up a nuanced response which is why we get a lot of one sentence replies on here in the beginning of a chapters discussion and as time goes on and the looky-loos leave for other pastures we start to get more discussions and less reactions.

I've leaving in the part where you said I made a good point as I'm shameless like that lol.

As to the last part, again I can't believe I'm defending Yuu when I'm usually disparaging him but I believe it was only 30 minutes or so between Yuu finding out that Yami=Aya and the confession. I believe earlier peortega1 said something about 2 hours but I'm fairly certain that it was mentioned in the webnovel that the time period was only half an hour. Regardless, he had very little time to tell Hikari what was going on and also it's a difficult discussion to have and the festival is not really the right place to have it especially during a romantic dance and a potential confession. Man, I'm all over the place with this. At one point I'm like he should have told her immediately when he found her and at another I'm saying he should have waited.

 

[peortega1]

I don't think those references mean anything, they are just for fun, just like they were in KM.
I also don't think Yami resembles or imitates Utaha, or Kamiya from Shikimori-san, or Kazusa from White Album 2. One might find some parallels, just like you could find parallels with other love triangles, but the bottom line is they are completely different characters with different personalities and different problems.

Well, at least definitely implies Ayami likes Utaha as character and that is the reason why she is reading specifically the manga where Utaha won.
In Saekano we definitely had this type of meta-references as a form to show us how the main characters sees to themselves, in fact, this is all the base of Tomoya seeing Megumi as his "ideal heroine".
Also, I invite you to read my posts about the parallels and similiarities about those characters, and I can give you even more parallels to defend my thesis. Yuu and Yami being EXPIES of Izumi and Kamiya doesn´t imply they are not their own characters with their own personalities due to the very different lives they had, and who pushed them in a different road than in OG Timeline.
At least, they are definitely the inspiration for Yuu Takamura and Ayami Sudo.

Except Yami actually had a relationship with Yuu and actually did "bind him with her body", unlike Utaha who never did anything. So Yami was at least partially speaking from experience, while Utaha only based it on her ideas (and also partly on making fun of Eriri).

Utaha definitely tried several times to "bind Ethical-kun with her body", remember the chapter of Saekano when she takes a photo with Tomoya and her both sleeping naked in the same bed -even if nothing more happened, of course-.
That is the real difference between the 2D otaku Tomoya and Yuu Takamura -and Yuu Izumi too-. Tomoya rejected her advances, while both Yuu accepted them. Also, Tomoya feels like he is the Maruto´s male MC less comfortable with the idea of being dominated by his girlfriend (or with really having sex), he is his less submissive MC, instead Haruki choosing Kazusa over Setsuna or Izumi being interested in both Shikimori and Kamiya -and Takamura feeling attracted to Ayami-.
Probably both Haruki and Yuu Izumi/Yuu Takamura would feel more comfortable with somebody like Utaha.

 

[outinthegardener]

Yes there are "reasons", but they are dogshit reasons. As somebody who has also dealt with trauma and mental health issues, that is absolutely not an excuse for what she did, and I personally find it disgusting when people try to use mental health issues as a justification for awful behaviour. You can push somebody away without putting them in genuine danger (I'd call that a bit more than just "tasteless", but whatever), and you can end a relationship without leaving the other person essentially in limbo.

I did not say it excused or justified her actions. I want to explain or understand her actions, in an effort to think about what can be done going forward. I hope anyone would approach their mistakes in a way that lets them grow, because we're all making mistakes (some of them massive) all of the time. To err is to be human. I think very few people are absolutely irredeemable.

FWIW I also question the idea that calling a John for Hikari means genuine danger (opposed to potential danger). Most people don't try to hurt their prostitutes, even when they arrive and get told "false alarm." I bet that dude was pissed, but not pissed enough to physically hurt someone. He's "I'm gonna leave a bad YELP review!" pissed. That is exactly how it happened - he got mad, Yami stepped in, and the problem was diffused. As I read it Yami meant to scare Hikari, not force her into sex work.

 

[peortega1]

And of course, other reason behind my thesis of Ayami Sudo being an expy of Ai Kamiya is the ridicuously androginous tomboy that she is. Literally with her short hair (even shorter than Kamiya and Shikimori usual hair) and appearance, she only needs use pants instead a skirt, and you have perfectly a boy.
You can see the cover of volume 2 with Yami, and this is literally seems as a boy.
Ayami is literally the incarnation of the trope of tomboy athletic girlfriend with big breasts hidden under the clothes... exactly as Ai Kamiya and Miyako Shikimori, the "two princes who saved Yuu Izumi".
Helps too both are menhera girls under the mask of a tsundere ice queen. Like Shikimori is a yandere girl under the mask of a deredere happy lovey-dokey.
This is also the reason why Hikari being an Eriri Expy replaces her talented otaku nature by a tomboyish athletic girl.
Shikimori-san is not just a cutie probably was the inspiration of Maruto to this... exploration of gender roles and role-reversal, already implicit in several moments of White Album 2 and Saekano, but coming to a new level.
Because this a role reversal story, even more than White Album 2. Imasara is a role reversal story and the slogan of Yami-Yuu ship cannot be other than literally this:

 

[story645]

When was this? I know that Aya's been aware that Yuu is Hikari's friend/crush since that group chat, but I don't remember her outright telling Yuu.

Yuu pieces it together in https://mangadex.org/chapter/046cc708-8f96-47ad-809a-840dcd671c63/4

To say that she doesn't see the consequences of just ghosting somebody she's supposedly in a relationship (such as it was) with, or offering her classmate up as a prostitute ("joke" or not) is just absurd.

I think she didn't think Yuu cared all that much about her - that it was the FWB relationship she tells Hikari it was & that's why Hikari pushing back with "no way" had such an effect on her b/c Hikari knows Yuu best.

But also I think it's equally absurd that Yuu didn't see the consequences of not telling Hikari his ex was her best friend. And as a girl, most of Yuu's behavior in his relationship with Aya reads like it's not a surprise to me she ghosted levels of absurd - which is the point right? All these characters can tell stories to themselves about why their behavior wasn't that bad but that doesn't negate their behavior being harmful.

ETA: just to be clear, I think ghosting is not ok unless the person being ghosted is like abusive.

but Aya clearly did think enough to come up with this plan though,

Absolutely, but not the consequences b/c, like @outinthegardner mentioned,
she's a stupid traumatized kid with a lifetime of experience managing her mother's pervy men. Like again I don't think it excuses her or justifies her or any of that, but I think it explains that her intent was "scare Hikari off" (a test like the ghosting) and not "get Hikari assaulted".

while Yuu causes harm by not acting due to his cowardice

Not acting is still an action though. Staying silent is as much a choice as saying something.

Not, her name is already Sudo in this point, is just Hikari receiving non-updated information

Ok, other way around - when Aya meets Yuu her last name is Matsushita (https://mangadex.org/chapter/a84583b8-81c6-451b-bf87-507a8d9c6812/8) and I can't remember if not she ever tells him her last name & she ghosted him before the divorce so he wouldn't know her new even if he knew her old one.

But again, my point here is that Hikari tells Yuu all about her new best friend Aya because the relationship is important to her but Yuu doesn't tell Hikari about his very important relationship with his girlfriend. Whether either can identify that they're talking about the same person isn't my point, it's that friends are expected to share important info about their lives.

, Yami is technically the girlfriend of Yuu yet in this point, they have not formally broke up, she only disappeared without say nothing.

Are you trolling here?

Ghosting is a breakup; in the unknown universe where it's not, it's on Yuu and Aya to tell Hikari that Yuu is taken. Judging her for what she doesn't know is !?

and anyway, with any other girl, Seki seems doesn´t know nothing about Yami too

Seki is not his oldest very close childhood friend. Like that's the point - Yuu keeps going on about how Hikari is so important he's afraid of losing her but also won't share this very important part of his life with her.

nd anyway, Hikari lied too,

Yeah and? Like they both did bad things doesn't negate that they both did bad things.

Probably just his parents and male friends like Kaneda knows about Ayami.

His parents don't know - this came up in the beach chapter. And we know from chapter 16 that the class mates he was close enough with to know about taking the exam for Hikari's school don't know about Aya even though the relationship would have started in middle school.

after Hikari accepted his confession, even more after realize Ayami was her best friend.

Uh for many folks their best friend's ex is off limits. That's why this is deal breaker information that's important to share before the confession. That's why Hikari cares that it's Aya but didn't about Seki or the girls she set him up with.

I'm honestly so confused because some of your arguments seem to be getting it, which again makes me wonder if you're trolling.

 

[IotaCS]

Wall of text incoming, didn't wanna turn replies to multiple people into multiple posts.

Where did @outinthegardener say they were justifying Ayami's behavior? They said there were reasons for it. That's not justifying it, merely explaining that it makes sense why she did it, as abhorrent as the actions were.

Honestly, at this point it seems like some people are conflating "understanding" with "condoning".
You can say you understand why someone did something contextually based on other cues in the narrative of their story, without condoning those actions.

I'm not conflating the two words. I'm saying that her actions do not make sense. Her motivations do, but how those get her from "this person is annoying me" to "I should sign this person up for a sugar daddy service" is a fucking mystery. Like I said in my reply to the other person, mental health is not a good reason for any of that. It's a bit like when people blame alcohol for their actions - you were always capable of those actions, the alcohol just removed whatever last filter was stopping you. It didn't make you do it.

As for where they justified it, that was more implicit by downplaying the severity of her actions (calling it "tasteless"), and stating that she could be forgiven for it. If somebody without her trauma had done the same thing, would that be forgivable? If not, what's the difference?

To put it very bluntly: trauma is not a reason to act like a cunt.

===

We are talking about the cowardice of Yuu and Hikari about being unable of saying things. Yes, she was not forced to give him a response if she didn´t know about Yuu feelings... and he is not forced to say her about an ex-girlfriend until he as know, probably Hikari doesn´t meet her even if Yami finally returned to school.

He's not obligated to tell her about his ex (although in a healthy relationship hiding that sort of stuff isn't a great idea), but in my opinion that changes the moment he knows that his ex is her best friend. What happens when she introduces you to her friends? Just gonna pretend that you're meeting for the first time? That would be some real Machiavellian shit lol.

Also just a note: I haven't read any of Murata's other works so I have no idea who these other characters are who you keep referring to.


===

Going back to the Yuu is a piece of shit argument that some people have been making (in my defense I don't believe I've called him a piece of shit I just stated I disliked him - though I flip flop on that more than a politician). I think some of it is just standard internet hyperbole. It's easier/faster to just leave a blanket statement than to type up a nuanced response which is why we get a lot of one sentence replies on here in the beginning of a chapters discussion and as time goes on and the looky-loos leave for other pastures we start to get more discussions and less reactions.

Just to make one thing clear that I don't think I've actually said yet: I also do not like Yuu (probably partially because he reminds me slightly of myself at my worst). I just think he's a sympathetic character and not actually a bad person (although I'll admit that could change in the coming chapters based on how he handles the fallout here). I realise it could come across that I actually like him as a character, but I dislike pretty much every character in this story for one reason or another lol.

I've leaving in the part where you said I made a good point as I'm shameless like that lol.

Lol no worries, you did make a good point. I don't have anything against you just because we disagree on some of this stuff, I appreciate that you're willing to have an actual good faith discussion on it.

As to the last part, again I can't believe I'm defending Yuu when I'm usually disparaging him but I believe it was only 30 minutes or so between Yuu finding out that Yami=Aya and the confession. I believe early peortega1 said something about 2 hours but I'm fairly certain that it was mentioned in the webnovel that the time period was only half an hour.

That's why I can partially get why he didn't say anything. He was probably still processing that and didn't know the best way to bring it up (if he actually planned to), but confessing without telling her was the worst choice.


===

I did not say it excused or justified her actions. I want to explain or understand her actions, in an effort to think about what can be done going forward. I hope anyone would approach their mistakes in a way that lets them grow, because we're all making mistakes (some of them massive) all of the time. To err is to be human. I think very few people are absolutely irredeemable.

Sorry if I misunderstood, it just seemed a lot like you were downplaying her actions based on her mental health issues, which is something I personally hate.

FWIW I also question the idea that calling a John for Hikari means genuine danger (opposed to potential danger).

Aya had zero way of knowing what sort of person was going to show up, so yes there was legitimate danger there. Just because it didn't turn out for the worst doesn't mean that the action itself wasn't dangerous. If I jumped off a cliff into the ocean and manage to not hit a rock and die, does that mean that the action of jumping didn't present "genuine danger"?

Most people don't try to hurt their prostitutes, even when they arrive and get told "false alarm." I bet that dude was pissed, but not pissed enough to physically hurt someone. He's "I'm gonna leave a bad YELP review!" pissed. That is exactly how it happened - he got mad, Yami stepped in, and the problem was diffused. As I read it Yami meant to scare Hikari, not force her into sex work.

Like you said: most. Some do, and you can't predict how a stranger is going to react to that sort of thing. But that wasn't even my main point. My main point was that in response to somebody annoying her, she deliberately put that person into a position where they genuinely believed that they might be about to be sexually assaulted. Even if there was absolutely no danger (i.e. she planned it with the guy just to scare Hikari), that is objectively fucked.


===

I think she didn't think Yuu cared all that much about her - that it was the FWB relationship she tells Hikari it was & that's why Hikari pushing back with "no way" had such an effect on her b/c Hikari knows Yuu best.

But also I think it's equally absurd that Yuu didn't see the consequences of not telling Hikari his ex was her best friend. And as a girl, most of Yuu's behavior in his relationship with Aya reads like it's not a surprise to me she ghosted levels of absurd - which is the point right? All these characters can tell stories to themselves about why their behavior wasn't that bad but that doesn't negate their behavior being harmful.

I don't remember if it was in the novel chapters from Yuu's perspective or in the manga (or both), but iirc he did express that he didn't want their relationship to just be a casual thing. And even if he never gave any indication of that, just ghosting him is still fucked. Relationships are a two-way street. If you have insecurities about the relationship and choose not to talk to your partner about it and instead just ghost them, you don't get to blame that on their actions. I'll even give Yuu the tiniest possible bit of credit in that relationship, since he did at least sort of try to address his own insecurities when he asked Aya what exactly they were. Aya had been acting so uninterested in the relationship that it's not surprising he was hesitant to try and push it.

But also I think it's equally absurd that Yuu didn't see the consequences of not telling Hikari his ex was her best friend.

That was sort of my point - that not telling her before confessing is the worst thing he's done.

Not acting is still an action though. Staying silent is as much a choice as saying something.

Yes, but I don't think it's fair to simplify it that far. The only two times I can recall that his inaction caused any issue are when Hikari invited him to the festival and he was evasive about it (although she shares part of the blame there for how she reacted), and not telling her about Aya. There might be more examples, but those are the two that I remember. A lot of people seem to blame him just for not confessing, but:
1. if he can be blamed for that, then Hikari is equally guilty of the exact same thing, and
2. neither of them is under any obligation to actually confess. Both are probably worried about destroying what they already have, which is totally understandable. To give an anecdotal example, when I was in college I was very good friends with a girl who I eventually developed feelings for. I chose not to act on it because I was pretty certain it wasn't mutual, and I would rather have just kept being friends than risk nuking the whole thing. A few years later when we were both in relationships with other people, she brought that up (turns out I was not exactly subtle), and it turned out that not saying anything was the right move. If I had, it would probably have made things awkward and changed our friendship, but we're still very good friends over 10 years later.

That said, if you genuinely can't get over somebody close to you like that, then staying friends and pretending your feelings don't exist probably isn't healthy.


Anyway, after this long-ass reply I have to actually do some work now rather than just waiting for phone calls, so I won't be active much.

 

[story645]

but iirc he did express that he didn't want their relationship to just be a casual thing

Super half heartedly though, like he didn't even think it was his right to fight it when she said again "I'll be your convenient woman". And he never really did anything to show that he wanted anything more than casual - didn't really try to get to know her, didn't take the initiative to do non-sex things til six months on when she'd already decided to ghost, didn't reassure her he loved her when she was seeking that validation. Which like he's young and inexperienced & Aya didn't communicate. But like I was just trying to explain her POV here.

If you have insecurities about the relationship and choose not to talk to your partner about it and instead just ghost them, you don't get to blame that on their actions.

I think that's fair & also Aya is young and inexperienced and insecure too. And I don't think she blames him exactly, it's more that she could tell herself a story of why he wouldn't be hurt if she ghosted.

since he did at least sort of try

That's the problem though right? Everything w/ Yuu is "sort of try" Like the confession is I think legit the first time he really put himself out there, which I'll give him credit for as growth (assuming Maruto doesn't walk it back).

of people seem to blame him just for not confessing,

I think it's slightly more naunced than that. The first couple of chapters have Hikari actively making moves to show Yuu she likes him & the last Yuu chapter acknowledges he recognizes this, while currently the only canon attempt Yuu made is the exam that she didn't even know about. That's what a lot of folks are contrasting - I don't even think to blame but more to highlight how different Yuu and Hikari are.

 

[peortega1]

Wall of Text incoming:

Yuu pieces it together in https://mangadex.org/chapter/046cc708-8f96-47ad-809a-840dcd671c63/4

Yes, just as I said, he doesn´t pieces it together until Yami greets him as "Taa-kun".https://mangadex.org/chapter/046cc708-8f96-47ad-809a-840dcd671c63/4

I think she didn't think Yuu cared all that much about her - that it was the FWB relationship she tells Hikari it was & that's why Hikari pushing back with "no way" had such an effect on her b/c Hikari knows Yuu best.

False. She knew Yuu loved her (because, for example, he said her a lot of times, including his farewell to her after the travel in chapter 29) and she is fully aware in chapter 30 how ghosting him will destroy him, even if she probably always feared Yuu looked her as a "plan B" or "worse is nothing".
The real reason why Yami says Hikari that he was "just a FWB" is because she is a tsundere menhera who doesn´t want to recognize before the romantic Hikari she really was able to fell in love and being a loving girlfriend exactly like in the shoujo mangas of Hikari. Yami prefers die before renounce to be the "bad girl" role she always is acting before Hikari.

Ok, other way around - when Aya meets Yuu her last name is Matsushita (https://mangadex.org/chapter/a84583b8-81c6-451b-bf87-507a8d9c6812/8) and I can't remember if not she ever tells him her last name & she ghosted him before the divorce so he wouldn't know her new even if he knew her old one.

Yes, she talked him about the divorce during their 3 days in the hotel (https://mangadex.org/chapter/40863f6d-a048-43e9-bd71-c4de2d9caa4e/3), and in the last page, she self-calls "Ayami Sudo", so, yes, probably Yuu knows her surname before ghosting is Sudo: https://mangadex.org/chapter/40863f6d-a048-43e9-bd71-c4de2d9caa4e/9
Again, look how they act with the other here, Hikari definitely would laugh a lot if she would see "Yami-sama" acting as the loving romantic girlfriend she knows Yuu always wanted. "Who could say Aya-chan was really a so kind girl?" or something like that.

But again, my point here is that Hikari tells Yuu all about her new best friend Aya because the relationship is important to her but Yuu doesn't tell Hikari about his very important relationship with his girlfriend

The point is definitely Hikari didn´t say Yuu "all about Aya" precisely because she never say even the real name of Aya. Yuu definitely would have recognized at least the name "Ayami". Is the same reason why she always names him as "Taa-kun" with her friends, including Ayami, and are Haru and Yuki who had to pressure her to give them the real name of Yuu. In this chapter 42, is very clear Hikari definitely didn´t say "all about" Taa-kun, to Haru and Yuki.

Whether either can identify that they're talking about the same person isn't my point, it's that friends are expected to share important info about their lives.

Yes, that is the point, they are not really so friends, in fact, Hikari Arc starts with her repairing her FRIENDSHIP with Yuu even pass to any real romantic attempt. You can see this in the chapter 5 of Yuu PoV when he says her: "I don´t remember you would be interested in my academic future in middle school" and she only could respond: "now is different".
And yes, that is the real mistake of Hikari in middle school, she definitely was not a good friend to Yuu and didn´t worry about if he could feel at least upset with them being separated in different schools (and this is the reason why he is so dispaired when he met Ayami), I mean, anyone would want at least being in the same school of his friends, and the Hikari chapters left very clear the entering in the private school supposed isolate Hikari from her original entourage and friends, all those people of middle school lost fully the contact with her.

Are you trolling here?

Ghosting is a breakup; in the unknown universe where it's not, it's on Yuu and Aya to tell Hikari that Yuu is taken. Judging her for what she doesn't know is !?

Of course ghosting is a breakup. I didn´t deny it. My point was strictly in TECHNICAL terms, FORMAL terms. Even more from the author who gave us to "Ethical-kun".
So, IMO this is the motivation behind the chapter of Yami realizing "Taa-kun" is Yuu and still incentived Hikari to pursue Yuu. Because Maruto wants to emphatize us Yami betray to Hikari.
If Yami wouldn´t know Yuu was Taa-kun, her actions in chapter 40 would be much more justified and yes, she definitely could say Hikari that was her goodbye kiss to break formally with his ex-boyfriend. But after her treason, she cannot say it, and for that she chooses the most self-destructive path to try to self-justify before Hikari, even if with this, again, is presenting herself as a whore who played with the feelings of Yuu -and she at least recognizes feel disgust and repulsion to talk in this way about "my heavenly days" with Yuu, thanks Maruto for notice all the readers felt to see her thus.

Seki is not his oldest very close childhood friend. Like that's the point - Yuu keeps going on about how Hikari is so important he's afraid of losing her but also won't share this very important part of his life with her.

Because during his relationship with Yami, he definitely renounced Hikari and he is explicitily trying to forget her and get over her. Those months of first year were probably the lowest point in their entire friendship.
And after the breaking, he was so broken and depressed he simply didn´t want say nothing to Hikari about a girl he believes Hikari never will meet even if both girls are in the same school and Yami ended returning to classes.

Yeah and? Like they both did bad things doesn't negate that they both did bad things.

Of course. That is my point, both failed, as friends, as love interests, etc.

 

[peortega1]

Part Two. About the Hotel trip:

His parents don't know - this came up in the beach chapter. And we know from chapter 16 that the class mates he was close enough with to know about taking the exam for Hikari's school don't know about Aya even though the relationship would have started in middle school.

Beach Hotel chapter just said his parents didn´t know he was having sex with Yami, even more if he wants to convince them for sign a written permission so he can stay in the hotel by those 3 days, as is mandatory by law in both Japan, Europe and the Americas. Any teenager probably would talk with his parents about his new girlfriend so he is so illussioned, but almost none teenager would say to his parents he is having sex with that girl. Almost none parent wouldn´t sign a permission to let his son going to fuck his girlfriend in a hotel by three days.
But definitely many teenagers would use and ended used the excuse of "this is just a studying meeting, Mom" as an excuse to have sex in his/her home-room with their couple.
And well, Yuu didn´t lie, definitely that was a "studies travel"... a travel to study Anatomy, Urology and Ginecology.
And yes, this is other arc covered in the last chapters of Shikimori-san... the parents of Izumi sign a permission to let him stay a night in a onsen with Miyako but they said explicitily to him the law forbid them to have sex. This is the reason why Ayami feels guilty in her inner monologue in chapter 28, she knows they are breaking the law, but she is definitely more rebel girl than Shikimori, other thing where she is exactly as Kamiya -and Utaha-.
And I have the theory of this thing is somehow related with the attempt of suicide of her mother and why Yami decides to break with Yuu even if she still loves him. Somebody called the mother to say his daughter was having sex in a hotel with a boy, and she got mad after the recent trauma of divorce. This is why Yami feels break with Yuu is a punish she deserves.
His parents probably just know Yami was his girlfriend and they had kissed and had dates as any normal teenager couple, and remember, Yuu doesn´t lie with this because he never asked for sex to Yami, she always taked the initiative with "that". And of course, this would be enough for Yuu to explain his parents he was so depressed after the breaking.
About their friends, if he really said something to them, definitely was under the condition to not say nothing to Hikari, securely with the excuse of "I myself will say her in the appropiated moment", and like her looking the perfect moment to confess to Yuu, he was procastinating once and again as the perfect coward they both are.,

Uh for many folks their best friend's ex is off limits. That's why this is deal breaker information that's important to share before the confession. That's why Hikari cares that it's Aya but didn't about Seki or the girls she set him up with.

Of course, and this is exactly the reason why he doesn´t realizes "Aya-chan" is "Yami-senpai" until their encounter in chapter 40, as we already said. And yes, he in the WN recognizes "I am the worst" after Hikari called "liar" in the gym, precisely because he knows he should have said this to Hikari but he didn´t do it. And again, he didn´t say this after all the fight with Yami was very hurted and securely passed that time with the "dead phone" (his only real lie) in the bathroom crying again.
Even if he decided doesn´t return with Yami, he definitely has right to feel very hurt by all the things what happened and who definitely re-opened the wounds who Yami provoked to him with the breakup. Is this so-delicated emotional state the reason why he didn´t say nothing to Hikari, and the reason why Hikari seems understand better his attitude during the confession, she was starting to realize he was hiding his hurted heart in that moment and he had right to felt hurted if Yami really said him the horrible and painful things she is saying to Hikari in chatper 41.

I'm honestly so confused because some of your arguments seem to be getting it, which again makes me wonder if you're trolling.

I hope these acclarations have left clear my position.

 

[peortega1]

If somebody without her trauma had done the same thing, would that be forgivable? If not, what's the difference?

To put it very bluntly: trauma is not a reason to act like a cunt.

Of course. This is the reason why she doesn´t deserves neither Yuu nor Hikari, but she needs them. This is the reason why almost all her worst actions are after the breaking with Yuu... to show, how Kamiya with Izumi and Kazusa with Haruki, she literally cannot live without him in her life, even if she tries to do it.
And yes, there is a reason why Kamiya and Kazusa are menheras too. Literally all those girls are functional just only because the boy they love. This applies with Shikimori too in her role as yandere girlfriend.

Also just a note: I haven't read any of Murata's other works so I have no idea who these other characters are who you keep referring to.

Maruto is the man. His other works, if you are interested, are White Album 2 and Saekano. If you look at least one episode of those animes, you can see very easily how Maruto is playing here the same themes he had already explored before, and also this is not the first time he explores those dolorous love triangles from the PoV of the girls involved (for example, chapters 10-11 of White Album 2 who shows to viewers the PoV of Kazusa Touma about all the story, and yes, those chapters are based in a novel written by Maruto and included with the VN of WA2)
And of course, I recommend you Shikimori is not just a cutie, IMO the main inspiration of Maruto for Imasara, and probably inspirated by White Album 2 too (seeing the parallels between Yuu Izumi with Haruki, and Kamiya with Kazusa, during Kamiya Arc in the series). As I said, Yuu and Yami are expies of the MC and the 2nd FMC (the blue-haired girl) from that series. This is a Pseudo If Route where Kamiya won and really was the girlfriend of Yuu Izumi.
Like Saekano is the revenge of the author over Chitoge from Nisekoi.

That's why I can partially get why he didn't say anything. He was probably still processing that and didn't know the best way to bring it up (if he actually planned to), but confessing without telling her was the worst choice.

Yes, he himself recognizes in the Web Novel, because chapter 38 ends with a brief words from his PoV, realizing Hikari saw Yami kissing him and "I am the worst", also he repeats he didn´t lie when he said he always loved Hikari, and yes, is possible love two girls at the same -but I agree you about this is not the most healthy-.

Like you said: most. Some do, and you can't predict how a stranger is going to react to that sort of thing. But that wasn't even my main point. My main point was that in response to somebody annoying her, she deliberately put that person into a position where they genuinely believed that they might be about to be sexually assaulted. Even if there was absolutely no danger (i.e. she planned it with the guy just to scare Hikari), that is objectively fucked.

Yes, that is the point. Yami likes play with fire thinking she won´t burn, and later ends crying a lot when she has to face the consequences. Is very coherent with the same personality who made her carrying Yuu to a hotel by three days, and even worst, she wanted to stay a week and Yuu had to remember her that was an irresponsible decision who would imply abandon their parents of both.

That said, if you genuinely can't get over somebody close to you like that, then staying friends and pretending your feelings don't exist probably isn't healthy.

This is probably the reason why he accepted what he definitely thought was a girl romantically interested on him. Ayami was his try to get over Hikari, and he seems really reaching during the progress of the relationship... until Yami broke with him and left him even worse than at the beginning.
Even if, of course, securely it was all this energy of stoic and more mature boy, of heartbroken boy, who attracted Hikari to him finally. Seems the women has a serious weakness for heartbroken guys, as you can see in practically any shoujo or even shounen romcom manga or light novel.

 

[story645]

She knew Yuu loved her (because, for example, he said her a lot of times, including his farewell to her

That's the only time he said it to her & it was an indirect "I think I'm falling in love"

she is fully aware in chapter 30 how ghosting him will destroy him,

She recognizes that he's worried about her & blocks him so she won't know if he passed or failed her test of showing enough concern to break her resolve. Which we know is a test she thinks he failed b/c she goes off on him in the crash out about not looking for her.

Yami prefers die before renounce to be the "bad girl" role she always is acting before Hikari.

Yes this is true but she was also playing this role w/ Yuu and thinks Yuu believed her act.

, she self-calls "Ayami Sudo", so, yes, probably Yuu knows her surname before ghosting is Sudo

That's a thought bubble after she's already decided to ghost. There's legit no evidence Yuu knows any of her last names b/c, as he's admitted in the short chapters, he just doesn't know much about her.

because she never say even the real name of Aya.

Because to her she's Aya-chan. I dunno about you, but when I'm relating anecdotes about people I generally just use the names I use for them.

I mean, anyone would want at least being in the same school of his friends

Hikari is a high achiever who got recommended for an academically challenging school - this seems like a totally obvious of course she'd go thing given everything I've ever read about academics in Japan.

for that she chooses the most self-destructive path to try to self-justify before Hikari,

Sure, I argued as much in a previous thread w/o having read anything else by Maruto b/c the characters in this work have very coherent characterizations.
That doesn't change that Aya and Yuu explicitly kept Hikari in the dark about their relationship so she really can't be faulted for persuing him.

was so broken and depressed he simply didn´t want say nothing to Hikari about a girl he believes Hikari never will meet

Sure, I think his actions are understandable. I also think Hikari being upset is understandable - very frequently situations aren't a clear cut one person is right and one person is wrong.

His parents probably just know Yami was his girlfriend

There's no evidence of this?
Aya's never been to his house - it comes up in the chapter where she goes to Hikari's. That means his parents likely never met her, which would be incredibly suspicious after six months if they knew about her. Also Hikari and her mom talk to his mom & it's never mentioned and like moms talk about this stuff, especially if the girls go to the same schools.

Even if he decided doesn´t return with Yami, he definitely has right to feel very hurt

Yeah sure - his behavior is both understandable and caused harm. I think this is one of the themes Maruto is exploring on repeat here.

 

[peortega1]

Super half heartedly though, like he didn't even think it was his right to fight it when she said again "I'll be your convenient woman". And he never really did anything to show that he wanted anything more than casual - didn't really try to get to know her, didn't take the initiative to do non-sex things til six months on when she'd already decided to ghost, didn't reassure her he loved her when she was seeking that validation. Which like he's young and inexperienced & Aya didn't communicate. But like I was just trying to explain her POV here.

He did a lot of these things, several times. I will put several links to proof it. Also, she also says she loves him several times. Remember, she said "I'll be your convenient woman" before chapter 25.5, when she sees him sleeping and accepts definitely she loves him and she wants to be his girlfriend.
He invites her to go out to the street because is a shiny day, and she doesn´t want: https://mangadex.org/chapter/78d007f1-d25a-402b-b0c3-16a0c2942f0d/4
She just after gives all this speech about being "worthy to Yuu" while she is proposing him come to a love hotel:
https://mangadex.org/chapter/78d007f1-d25a-402b-b0c3-16a0c2942f0d/7
She says she loves him during their video-call -and yes, she is using that cleavage to arousal him and show him her proposal of send nudes photos/videos to him is in serious:
https://mangadex.org/chapter/161f3b54-1bd3-4ba0-995c-dd6c8dce9d0b/1
He says he wants going with her to the beach and sorrows Ayami doesn´t want to be in open spaces:
https://mangadex.org/chapter/161f3b54-1bd3-4ba0-995c-dd6c8dce9d0b/5
She calls him "my boyfriend" in the hotel while they are hand-holding:
https://mangadex.org/chapter/40863f6d-a048-43e9-bd71-c4de2d9caa4e/2
He asks again to her for her family during the three days travel after complain she doesn´t want to beach
https://mangadex.org/chapter/40863f6d-a048-43e9-bd71-c4de2d9caa4e/3
He promises he will call her just he came to home (spoiler, Kamiya has all this discourse about "youth" too):
https://mangadex.org/chapter/0db11940-10a5-428a-8643-87a46bd90837/3
And of course, his last words to her are literally he saying he loves her:
https://mangadex.org/chapter/0db11940-10a5-428a-8643-87a46bd90837/4
That is the reason why he mentally calls her already "my girlfriend" that dawn in the love hotel, and he is more worry for asking to her: "what we are?" than his own arousal (who Yami noticed it), again, Yuu always putted romance over sex and the story left very clear he is there having sex with Yami because he really loves her or at least feels something for her. For him, sex and romance are going together and are unseparable...
Other thing he shares with Haruki and over all, Yuu Izumi -and this is one of the reasons why Takamura is the Expy of Izumi and even has the same name of him-
And the fact Ayami was not able to kiss him or look him as desire in the previous night, she was not able to fake her supposed mask as "bad whore girl", is the proof she is really a romantic girl too who really was looking love and not lust when she was so dispair to think in sleeping with any old man.
Is just her being a tsundere menhera who hides her real feelings under her mask. Again, equal as Kazusa, Utaha and Kamiya.

 

[TheBlackGamer]

getting mad? did you not read 41? yami literally shit talks about yuu and hikari is the one who defends yuu. She is the bigger person there and already understood that both of them clearly have unresolved feelings. Like the angel she is to these two, she calls out yami for trying lie to herself about how she is as a person.

For the confession, fine, i can give you that, hikari chickened out with the amusement date confession. But that aint the same with yuu. Remember ch17, yuu admits that he has a inferiority complex to hikari. The whole reason he didn't tell her about him trying to go same school as her cus he wanted to catch up to her. He litterally does the trophe of the guy trying to prove that he's good enough to confess to the girl he likes. "If i get the top score, ill confess to her", but the thing about that is, its never about the girl he like, its about fueling his own ego. Yuu litterally admits he could never win against her. Hikari thought he was trying so hard for her, but it wasnt that. Yuu liked hikari for a long time, but its clear that he needed to be equal, or really feel better than her in order to confess to her. his insecurities are way worse than hikaris

and yes before anyone says, hikari can also confess, i ain't denying that, but the only person stopping yuu from confessing is himself.

Getting mad at what? 😂. Bro word of advice. Harsh language doesn't equal someone getting emotional.

Yes yes Yuu's ego blah blah. He was right to think like that because she had little interest in him in that way and would've ruined the relationship as he stated. Once he realized he could never catch up to her he gave up and got depressed. Once Yami came in he thought maybe he could move on but once she left him too it just spiraled for him. It's these failures that taught him to be careful of love so he doesn't get hurt again.

And it's not solely about feeling better than her it's about being proud of yourself. Something a majority of people here don't understand or can't grasp because they're fine being mediocre.

No one denied he's insecure. But this idea that he's garbage is retarded. Plus the simping for Hikari is really pathetic given she's borderline retarded and only "suddenly" decides to grow spine now when it comes to her friend still having feelings for her crush instead when she was signed up for a dating site without her knowledge or permission.

Also it seems from the way the story presents it she doesn't try talking to Yuu. But chases straight after Yami after she rejects him. Just terrible storytelling. This is drama slop only the most desperate enjoy.

 

[story645]

definitely she loves him and she wants to be his girlfriend.

I don't disagree, in fact I very much agree with you that Aya is very very serious about this relationship. I just think she thinks Yuu's not all that serious.

He invites her to go out to the street because is a shiny day, and she doesn´t want

That's my point, he doesn't push it and they hook up instead. There's no real effort on his part to do not hook up things.

He says he wants going with her to the beach

That panel has her suggesting the trip and the beach.

He asks again to her for her family during the three days travel after complain she doesn´t want to beach

And immediately drops it knowing she's lying to him. Again, the point is Aya thinks Yuu isn't that serious about her b/c he makes a bunch of half-hearted efforts that he doesn't see through. Which like Maruto reaffirms by having Yuu go look for Aya and then stop b/c he's afraid Hikari will see him.

literally he saying he loves her:

Again, first time in six months when she's been telling him for ages now. And it's not even a direct "I love you" but an acknowledgment that he's falling in love with her.

Yuu always putted romance over sex

Sure I'm not denying that Yuu thinks he did that - what I'm saying is that it didn't come across that way to Aya. In her crash out Aya lays out what she expects of a caring boyfriend - the shoujo dream of a boyfriend who sees her, fights for her, and chooses her - and Yuu's behavior doesn't match that expectation.

Which I argued that Aya wants the shoujo dream in a previous chapter w/o having ever read anything by Maruto b/c Maruto is pulling from Romance conventions.