Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi o Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 42 - The Uprising of the Nosey Girls

[rymar]

Anyway, all these pages of discussions gives turns and turns around the meta-referential central point without see it. There is a reason why Yami is reading Koisuru Metronome in chapter 26

Koisuru Metronome is the Saekano If Route manga, written by Maruto, where Utaha won becoming the girlfriend of the MC after have sex with him, because in this route, Tomoya never met Megumi the title FMC, the "boring girlfriend", so, he never fall in love with her

Because Ayami, Yuu and Hikari are based in Utaha, Tomoya and Eriri, is easy to see this is a route where Utaha had a relationship with Tomoya in the past, had sex with him as she always wanted and all that, and later she broke with him and is dealing with it in the present. This is the reason why Ayami explicitily self-identifies with Utaha.

Or maybe she is just reading "Koisuru Metronome" and Maruto thought it would be funny to include his other works in this manga. You are overanalyzing

 

[peortega1]

This is a brief example I add here as proof of my thesis

Definitely feels known, not?
All this would explain the interest of Maruto for that series, and in this way, the circle is closing.

 

[peortega1]

Or maybe she is just reading "Koisuru Metronome" and Maruto thought it would be funny to include his other works in this manga. You are overanalyzing

At least we can accept the idea of Yami being a declared fangirl of Utaha and trying to awarely imitate her, I mean, would fit perfectly in her personality.
EDIT: And of course, this would be the way of Maruto to say us Ayami occupies in this story the place of Utaha in Saekano, like Hikari is a Expy of Eriri in all the senses, but the tsunderism.

 

[peortega1]

She had no reason to think Yuu would know Aya so she's just relating the story of her friend.
Aya's name is Matsushita when Hikari meets her (ch 31) and Hikari would have no reason to relate to Yuu about her friend Aya's parents divorce and change of last name as that's usually information folks don't want shared about them.

Not, her name is already Sudo in this point, is just Hikari receiving non-updated information from the professor who ordered care Yami, that is the reason why Ayami first words from Hikari are say her she is Sudo right now, not Matsushita.
And anyway, my point is about the name. "Aya-chan" and "Yami-senpai" are two very different figures (and this is precisely who Hikari thinks in WN when she sees Ayami kissing Yuu), and I am very secure Hikari never said Yuu the real name of her friend. She never said Yuu that "Aya-chan" was really named "Ayami", a name who securely Yuu would recognize it -and the reason why he is so shocked when he meets Yami in the Hikari classroom-.
Like Hikari never saying the name of "Taa-kun" is Yuu and having to be her friends to ask and press her about the real name of Yuu Takamura in group chat in chapters 11-12 (and is just here Ayami realizes "Taa-kun" is Yuu and Hikari is the childhood friend he talked so much with her).
And this is a important point because is part of the moral bleaching of Hikari. Remember, Yami is technically the girlfriend of Yuu yet in this point, they have not formally broke up, she only disappeared without say nothing. Technically all this time Hikari have been flirting with the boyfriend of her best friend, and for this is important, to exonerate both Yuu and Hikari, this moment of Yami giving permission to her to persue Yuu.
And yes, this makes the kiss of Judas in the goodbye kissing of a girlfriend to his loved boyfriend.

Yes but at that point he also got confirmation that Hikari and Aya were best friends and still chose to confess to her without telling her. But also the comparison was about sharing important relationships with friends, not dating best friends.

Because again, he was so mentally confused in this point after all the mental breakdown of Yami. The boy securely ran to the bathroom to cry by 2 hours while he was recovering his best face of "Taa-kun the heartbrokens" and that is the reason why he ghosted Hikari during those 2 hours.
And anyway, Hikari lied too, Yuu asks her several times is she is feeling bad and she says doesn´t happen nothing and she is upset just by the 2 hours, allowing him to believe she didn´t see nothing and she believed his "little lie" of the "dead phone".

 

[peortega1]

Yes but at that point he also got confirmation that Hikari and Aya were best friends and still chose to confess to her without telling her. But also the comparison was about sharing important relationships with friends, not dating best friends.

Yes, this is the basic point. His relationship with Yami was so painful to him to share with Hikari -and anyway, with any other girl, Seki seems doesn´t know nothing about Yami too-, and, this is the important, all the Hikari Arc is based on the idea of them not being really so close friends, and hiding things from the other one.
Probably just his parents and male friends like Kaneda knows about Ayami.
He had all the right to doesn´t tell nothing to Hikari about past relationships where they are just friends in this point, even if he probably would talked about it, anyway, after Hikari accepted his confession, even more after realize Ayami was her best friend.
And Hikari seems to recognize this, the right of Yuu to date other girls without need say to her, first in the chapter 12 where she sees him with Seki the kouhai and realizes Yuu had a date with her -even if obviously they were never a couple-, and also because in Web Novel chapter 21, her upset is much more against "Aya-chan" and seems to believe "Yami-senpai" is other person who Yuu met in the past, but the voice of "Aya-chan" definitely convinces Hikari that her best friend is really betraying her and kissing Yuu.

 

[peortega1]

This is other thing Yuu Takamura shares with Yuu Izumi. He never said nothing to his girlfriend Miyako Shikimori about his, let´say, friendship with Ai Kamiya as members of the library commitee, until Kamiya asks directly to him for his girlfriend and wanting meeting her, and even in this point, as the good Haruki he always was, Izumi believes Kamiya is in love with Shikimori, not with him.
And this is the reason why Kamiya, like Kazusa in White Album 2 and Ayami herself, are not part of the main group of friends despite being friend of both Izumi and Nekozaki (one of the two female friends of Miyako and her voleyball mate).
And yes, this is the seed of the rooftop scene, where Kamiya was hiding in the rooftop by the same reasons why Ayami was avoiding Yuu -and of course, both events happens during the cultural festival of 2nd year-. This and of course, Shikimori being a jealous yandere.

 

[outinthegardener]

This is where I strongly disagree. To me there's an astronomical amount of difference between the two of them. Where Yuu has (mostly) indirectly hurt people through his lack of confidence and his annoying indecisiveness, Aya has actively hurt people directly through her actions, even to the point of putting Hikari in legitimate danger (regardless of whether that was meant as a "prank"). I don't think her "prank" is understandable at all if you actually think about it. She found somebody in her class annoying, so she decided the best course of action was to put that person in a position where she thought she was going to get raped. She's lucky that the situation didn't get out of hand and that she was still able to stop it - edgy joke or not that was still a teenage girl baiting adult men. Anybody who willingly does something like that is instantly and permanently irredeemable in my eyes. That's the distinction to me, and why I believe that while Yuu certainly isn't innocent, Aya is a legitimately terrible person.

I suspect there is a fundamental disagreement among the commentators about how we make moral judgments of people or their actions. The question is, are people bad because of their actions, and do the circumstances around their actions affect our judgment of them? Put another way are people absolutely good or bad, or are they good or bad contextually? As Kant wrote, categorical vs hypothetical moral judgments.

I agree that Yami made a tasteless and dangerous decision when she ordered a john for Hikari. But I think it's worthwhile to understand the context in which she made that decision. She's dealing with trauma and mental health issues, and she's coping by pushing people away. Hikari kept pushing in despite Yami's obvious attempts to keep her distance. So like a wounded cornered animal, Yami lashed out. I think that's very different from a true psychopath who hurts people without context. I could forgive Yami for it, but I wouldn't want to keep her around if she doesn't make an effort to change. Same with her impulsive hook-up and situationship with Yuu. She broke his heart, but there are reasons.

I reckon the difference in how we judge Yami and Yuu and HIkari is the degree of severity of their bad decisions. Yami's had the biggest risks- teen pregnancy, or putting Hikari in danger. Yuu's and Hikari's only led to a pile of hurt feelings, mostly their own. While Yami's mistakes are more serious, I think she's made more effort to change and grow than Yuu has. I give her some credit for that.

As to why this disagreement is so spicy, I blame English. A statement like "Yuu sucks" can be shorthand for either perspective. Yuu sucks because he is an absolutely bad person, or Yuu sucks because he's made some bad decisions and hasn't learned from them yet are different takes.

 

[peortega1]

I agree that Yami made a tasteless and dangerous decision when she ordered a john for Hikari. But I think it's worthwhile to understand the context in which she made that decision. She's dealing with trauma and mental health issues, and she's coping by pushing people away. Hikari kept pushing in despite Yami's obvious attempts to keep her distance. So like a wounded cornered animal, Yami lashed out. I think that's very different from a true psychopath who hurts people without context. I could forgive Yami for it, but I wouldn't want to keep her around if she doesn't make an effort to change. Same with her impulsive hook-up and situationship with Yuu. She broke his heart, but there are reasons.

Ayami was a formal girlfriend for Yuu, and he calls her "my girlfriend" already during those morning in the love hotel after their first time in chapter 4 of his PoV in the Web Novel.
And you are exactly explaining why Yuu doesn´t pressure Ayami about her mental heath issues. He was following a strategy of going slowly but certainly, to try to heal and fix her. He realizes very fast and very well, instead Hikari would do in the future, Yami always will lash out if you pressures much to her. In this case, his cowardly was fully justified and he was and is still right.
Yuu definitely pressured her to having a formal and romantic relationship, and is implied he needs a romance to... work it. Hikari was right about him in the most literal way, the boy needs feel he is a romantic relationship to have sex, without it, he literally doesn´t works, he needs romance to be arousal. Exactly like Yuu Izumi.
Again, Takamura is Izumi, he is much more interested on romance over sex, even if he obviously won´t refuse a sex offer. In chapter 4 literally we even have the typical scene of the girl asking the boy in bed "what are we?", but with the gender roles inverted. Again, Yami-Yuu relationship is a role reversal relationship where the "man who carry the pants" is HER.
Because they are basically Yuu Izumi and Ai Kamiya dating. This is the If Route of Kamiya. And yes, this is the reason why he accepted follow her to the love hotel. In his mind, he believes he is getting a girlfriend. And the best part it is he was right and Ayami accepted being his girlfriend as later in the chapter 25.5, when she sees him sleeping and kisses him in the lips, is very obvious this is the point when she accepts she is really in love with "this weak coward".
Yuu is so chad he reached to see how Ayami were falling in love with him even before herself. Yuu really got the loyal and loving girlfriend he always wanted, this is the reason why he is so broken after breakup with Yami, breakup, again, provoked by external locus reasons he couldn´t control, even if he probably pressured Yami to met her mother -this ironically could have helped to avoid the suicide attempt of Ayami mother, at least maybe-
For that in all those chapters 26-29 we see several love declarations between them and how both treats their relationship as boyfriend and girlfriend, literally. And yes, this is the reason why the rooftop scene in Shikimori-san basically implies Kamiya cannot live without Izumi to her side at least as a friend (and this is the reason why Miyako is so empathetic with her here, because she as a yandere feels the same by Izumi

 

[peortega1]

A statement like "Yuu sucks" can be shorthand for either perspective. Yuu sucks because he is an absolutely bad person, or Yuu sucks because he's made some bad decisions and hasn't learned from them yet are different takes.

I believe he is really has learn from his bad decisions (at least more than Hikari), is just he had bad luck, again. All this could have avoided if Hikari wouldn´t come late AGAIN. If she would came a few minutes before to the classroom...
It´s more, Hikari being as passive and coward as Yuu is proved in the kiss scene so perfectly. "Aya-chan" literally just beated her male best friend and Hikari doesn´t do nothing, doesn´t reaction, doesn´t enter in the room to protect or help Yuu, nothing. Even Setsuna reacted more in the infamous airport scene.
Not, the girl remains in the door looking as a perfect idiot -Yami was right about her- while the other girl is SA her best friend and love interest.

 

[peortega1]

And yes, definitely even in this point Hikari is not so romantically interested on Yuu or even over "Aya-chan".
Like Eriri over Tomoya and Utaha and Saekano, she definitely is much less interested on romance than Ayami and Yuu, or if you prefer, she is much less despaired to get a couple as Ayami and Yuu were and are.
Or the real love triangles of the works previously mentioned: Utaha-Megumi for Tomoya / Kamiya-Shikimori for Izumi.
Even in this point, Hikari never was going for Yuu like Ayami did, exactly equal as Eriri never was going for Tomoya as Utaha and Megumi did, or Kamiya and Shikimori did with Izumi.
And yes, Maruto leaves very clear here his... opinions about passive women without initiative. Again.

 

[Morwitz]

Honestly reading through all these comments shitting on a dude who had a relationship with a maniac who procceded to ghost him and then fuck him over and then also has a love interest whose fanboys will adamantly defend can do no wrong makes me realise how little I care about the opinion of internet strangers.

Thank you for comming to my ted talk.

 

[IotaCS]

Fuck it, I'll keep going lol. I kinda wanna see how many dumb reactions I can collect here from people who can't articulate a response 😅

Edit: actually most of it seems to be sockpuppet/bot accounts. Half the accounts leaving these reactions have no post history and were literally created today. Looks like somebody got a bit salty lmao...

More than that, he got confirmation that they were friends during Aya's crash out. And yeah I can totally see this novel/manga going the nihilist route: Yuu learns nothing and defaults to Aya (or Seki) cause Hikari doesn't want him.

When was this? I know that Aya's been aware that Yuu is Hikari's friend/crush since that group chat, but I don't remember her outright telling Yuu. Not saying you're wrong, I've probably just forgotten since the only chapter I've reread is ch19.

But Yuu has also hurt people through the actions he took b/c of his lack of confidence and indecisiveness. I also think it's a bit of a cop-out to say that Yuu is less bad because he's too inconsiderate/immature to not think through the consequences of his behavior. Like that's selfish even if it's not intended as such. Which again, Aya also is too immature/selfish to think through the consequences of her actions.

That's still not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Aya consciously and deliberately chose to take actions that would directly lead to hurting other people. In fact to me, your last sentence here is the cop-out. To say that she doesn't see the consequences of just ghosting somebody she's supposedly in a relationship (such as it was) with, or offering her classmate up as a prostitute ("joke" or not) is just absurd.

Yes but Aya didn't think, just like Yuu doesn't think. I absolutely agree she's lucky Hikari has plot armor but legit, as Aya says to Hikari, Aya thought Hikari would get flustered and then handle the situation like Aya would - which Aya sent the man away. I agree it is not remotely condonable, but that's why I think Hikari found it forgivable.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence, but Aya clearly did think enough to come up with this plan though, meaning she had every opportunity to see how fucked that plan was and change course. She didn't, she chose to follow through with it.

To put it simply, Aya seems to actively choose the action that will cause the most harm to others, while Yuu causes harm by not acting due to his cowardice. To me there's a big difference there, and one is redeemable while the other is not.


===

I agree that Yami made a tasteless and dangerous decision when she ordered a john for Hikari. But I think it's worthwhile to understand the context in which she made that decision. She's dealing with trauma and mental health issues, and she's coping by pushing people away. Hikari kept pushing in despite Yami's obvious attempts to keep her distance. So like a wounded cornered animal, Yami lashed out. I think that's very different from a true psychopath who hurts people without context. I could forgive Yami for it, but I wouldn't want to keep her around if she doesn't make an effort to change. Same with her impulsive hook-up and situationship with Yuu. She broke his heart, but there are reasons.

Yes there are "reasons", but they are dogshit reasons. As somebody who has also dealt with trauma and mental health issues, that is absolutely not an excuse for what she did, and I personally find it disgusting when people try to use mental health issues as a justification for awful behaviour. You can push somebody away without putting them in genuine danger (I'd call that a bit more than just "tasteless", but whatever), and you can end a relationship without leaving the other person essentially in limbo.

 

[noleafclover75]

Fuck it, I'll keep going lol. I kinda wanna see how many dumb reactions I can collect here from people who can't articulate a response 😅

When was this? I know that Aya's been aware that Yuu is Hikari's friend/crush since that group chat, but I don't remember her outright telling Yuu. Not saying you're wrong, I've probably just forgotten since the only chapter I've reread is ch19.


That's still not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Aya consciously and deliberately chose to take actions that would directly lead to hurting other people. In fact to me, your last sentence here is the cop-out. To say that she doesn't see the consequences of just ghosting somebody she's supposedly in a relationship (such as it was) with, or offering her classmate up as a prostitute ("joke" or not) is just absurd.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that last sentence, but Aya clearly did think enough to come up with this plan though, meaning she had every opportunity to see how fucked that plan was and change course. She didn't, she chose to follow through with it.

To put it simply, Aya seems to actively choose the action that will cause the most harm to others, while Yuu causes harm by not acting due to his cowardice. To me there's a big difference there, and one is redeemable while the other is not.


===

Yes there are "reasons", but they are dogshit reasons. As somebody who has also dealt with trauma and mental health issues, that is absolutely not an excuse for what she did, and I personally find it disgusting when people try to use mental health issues as a justification for awful behaviour. You can push somebody away without putting them in genuine danger (I'd call that a bit more than just "tasteless", but whatever), and you can end a relationship without leaving the other person essentially

This is the exact type of response I keep seeing on this series. Not a single point addressed, not a single actual justification for why he's a piece of shit, and absolutely no attempt to actually understand the character. Just "because I said so". That is retard logic.

Your last sentence is true though, this story is dumb as fuck. The forum threads are much more fun.

I feel no need to keep articulating my responses that I've had done multiple times over the past 42 threads. Feel free to go find them. Plus people have no need to articulate their points because some random poster demands it.

 

[IotaCS]

I feel no need to keep articulating my responses that I've had done multiple times over the past 42 threads. Feel free to go find them. Plus people have no need to articulate their points because some random poster demands it.

You feel no need to, but you felt a need to disagree to my comment. It's generally expected that if you express disagreement with somebody on some topic, you give actual reasons for that disagreement. Expecting them to go back through 40+ threads just to find your reasoning is retarded. I also didn't "demand" a thing. I just pointed out how stupid your response to my comment was.

 

[peortega1]

To put it simply, Aya seems to actively choose the action that will cause the most harm to others, while Yuu causes harm by not acting due to his cowardice. To me there's a big difference there, and one is redeemable while the other is not.

Do you know these words applies exactly equal with Hikari, not?
She is as coward as Yuu, and precisely the scene of the kiss proved it. "Aya-chan" literally is beating Yuu, and she doesn´t make nothing beyond look through the window as the foolish girl "Aya-chan" always said she was.
And of course, Hikari caused harm to Yuu because she never noticed his feelings and much less give him an appropiated response to his feelings, positive or negative. This is the reason why he feels he need to confess her and being rejected to be able to get over her at least and follow with his life. Yes, he was a coward to don´t confess her anyway, but when all the fucking middle school was able to note Yuu being in love with Hikari and her not, definitely is a failure of her as friend to him.
And again, is all this who carried Yuu to the arms of Yami in his lowest moment, I mean, literally Ayami impeded him return to home TWO TIMES in that "second date".
And yes, this is the reason why he never said nothing to Hikari about the failed exam. It would be a disrespect from Ayami as his girlfriend and he definitely is making an effort to make feel Ayami she is not his "plan B" or his "worse is nothing", you can see for example his response in chapter 26 to Yami about "I would be your classmate too, Yami-senpai" as a way of say her that he really loves her (and he is not lying) without denying directly his love for Hikari.

 

[HellJester]

Fuck it, I'll keep going lol. I kinda wanna see how many dumb reactions I can collect here from people who can't articulate a response 😅

Edit: actually most of it seems to be sockpuppet/bot accounts. Half the accounts leaving these reactions have no post history and were literally created today. Looks like somebody got a bit salty lmao...

When was this? I know that Aya's been aware that Yuu is Hikari's friend/crush since that group chat, but I don't remember her outright telling Yuu. Not saying you're wrong, I've probably just forgotten since the only chapter I've reread is ch19.

I'm too lazy to MTL the webnovel chapter but in Chapter 40 of the manga page 4 Yuu says "To think, Yami-senpai, you are the 'Aya-chan' that Hikari always talked about..." <--This is the first point I'm aware of that Yuu realized Yami-senpai = Aya-chan and that she friends/best friends with Hikari.

As to the bots - yeah I started noticing this every time I came back to read this thread - I was getting random "dumb" reactions to some of my posts by people that had zero previous participation in any form. I started looking at reactions to other people's posts and noticed the bots there too.

I believe I'm picking up what you're putting down regarding the "looks like somebody got a bit salt lmao...". However, the bots are downvoting a variety of people, some of whom are disagreeing, so it appears they're targeting all sides and not one particular side.

 

[VanillaHentai]

too much story, not enough ass.

disappointed

 

[peortega1]

I'm too lazy to MTL the webnovel chapter but in Chapter 40 of the manga page 4 Yuu says "To think, Yami-senpai, you are the 'Aya-chan' that Hikari always talked about..." <--This is the first point I'm aware of that Yuu realized Yami-senpai = Aya-chan and that she friends/best friends with Hikari.

Yes, this is my point. Hikari sold Yuu a so idealized image of "Aya-chan" who definitely she omitted all the things about the reputation of Yami in the school (and remember, Yuu is the reason why in the school they can say with all right Ayami is not "pure" because she was to a love hotel with his former boyfriend), all the thing of "Yami-sama" who definitely Yuu would have recognized, and of course, she didn´t even say ever the real name of "Aya-chan" was Ayami.
This is the reason why Ayami greets Yuu with the name "Taa-kun", the way Hikari calls him... and visibly, he never said this detail to Yami. Is her way to leave clear to Yuu she is really the best friend of Hikari right now, she is "Aya-chan".
Like how Hikari never said the real name of "Taa-kun" was Yuu and her friends had to pressure her. And less bad, because this is who makes Yami the traitor. If Yami never know nothing, Hikari doesn´t have any right to be upset why her best friend was giving a goodbye kiss to her boyfriend just before break with him.
Remember, Ayami and Yuu were technically still a couple all this year, it never was a formal break-up. The scene of Yami guaranteeing Hikari that Yuu loves her is literally she giving permission to Hikari to pursue and confess to her still boyfriend.
Other foreshadowing from the harem ending, IMO.

 

[GennArc]

Or maybe she is just reading "Koisuru Metronome" and Maruto thought it would be funny to include his other works in this manga. You are overanalyzing

Not just that, in Koisuru Metronome he also kept referencing his previous series.

I suspect there is a fundamental disagreement among the commentators about how we make moral judgments of people or their actions. The question is, are people bad because of their actions, and do the circumstances around their actions affect our judgment of them? Put another way are people absolutely good or bad, or are they good or bad contextually? As Kant wrote, categorical vs hypothetical moral judgments.

Good post. Just wanted to add that, like I said this in previous chapters threads, I prefer to avoid making moral judgements when discussing media at all, unless there is something done with a clearly ill intent and without understandable reasoning. I am much less worried about how good of a person Hikari/Yuu/Yami/... is, I prefer looking at how good of a character they are.

Probably won't bother replying to this thread again, since most people would rather just leave a dumb reaction like cowards, and I don't want to hijack the thread any more than this.

I am not sure why you're even worried about this. When someone doesn't want to reply to you, that just means you likely wouldn't even have a good discussion with them anyway. And those reactions mean nothing at all.
I just keep talking to people who are willing to discuss the series.

 

[ShallowContrarian]

The forum wars is like half of the reason I still read this manga lol