Kusunoki-san wa Koukou Debut ni Shippai Shite Iru - Ch. 56 - Her absence has left me feeling strangely off

[Ragnolock]

I think people shouldn't over-state their history and the "trauma aspect". This was in middle school, and it's not like Hebikawa murdered both his parents. It's taken as a given that both Kusonoki and Keisuki have changed since then (that is the premise of the series!), so why can't Hebikawa? 10-year old Keisuki is also going to naturally view the raven-haired beauty differently post-puberty. Part of his growth should be forgiving and reconciling with Hebikawa, potentially in a romantic way.


"scheming"... again with the hyperbole. It is a normal rivalry. Hebikawa didn't plant drugs in Kusunoki's locker and get her kicked out of school. Hopefully Keisuki has the maturity to view this in the proper perspective. Something forum posters should also try to do a bit more objectively.

No see this is a problem i have.
What Hebikawa is doing is scheming. She has not changed her plans to "expose her dark side". Just because she may have a crush on him now does not mean she has suddenly decided she isn't trying to expose her dark side. It doesn't take someone planting drugs for them to be a bad person. It doesn't take someone doing something truly evil for their intent to be malicious. We can't just rewrite history to make it fit our agenda. Just because someone has a bad backstory does not make their actions justified. You are downplaying someone's trauma caused by another Just because "it happened in middle school." Someone could be traumatized by bugs because a bug flew in their face in middle school. Does that make their trauma any less valid? I say no.

We seem to be forgiving her without her actually doing anything to be forgiven. Time has passed, but we can see from the start of the series that it still effected him in enough of a way that it made him physically ill to see her. She had a bad home life, but the same could be said about 90% of bullies. Are we supposed to forgive them simply because they had a bad home life? There is a large difference between having an understanding about someone's actions, and forgiving them for said actions. We are skipping steps just because someone is more "interesting" than another.

 

[GregoryFregory]

yeah yeah we get it, kusunoki never did anything wrong at all

 

[MrPP118]

yeah yeah we get it, kusunoki never did anything wrong at all

I'm certainly not saying that and I don't think anyone else is saying that, you gotta stop with this mentality of yours.

This isn't a simple situation, Kusunoki is flawed but is trying to be a good person and is anxious about her feelings because of her trauma.

Hebikawa is a flawed person because of how she's grown up and because of her worldview, she's making bad choices that will only backfire in the end but it's not like she's irredeemable.

For Kusunoki, she needs to get over her trauma and be honest when she faces Moe and Keisuke.

For Hebikawa, she needs to see that there are good people, that life doesn't have to be so bleak that you need to see a dark side in everyone around you.

 

[Ragnolock]

yeah yeah we get it, kusunoki never did anything wrong at all

Saying stuff like this is just dismissal of actual discussion. You are just being bad faith by intentionally misinterpreting what people are saying. Has anyone ever even said this? If anything i would argue this is what the Hebikawa defenders are saying. Exactly to the letter actually. I have seen so many people say "She hasn't actually done anything" where as I have not seen a single person say that for Kusunoki.

 

[DMan_chine]

no one is saying she’s a nice girl, she is pretty mean, but that’s it, nothing she has done has been too far. The fact that you think she’s terrible and a psychopath makes me think you’re a kindergartener.

Please... you can just look for it:

Psychopathy, or psychopathic personality, is a personality construct characterized by impaired empathy and remorse, and persistent antisocial behavior, along with bold, disinhibited, and egocentric traits. These traits are often masked by superficial charm and immunity to stress, which create an outward appearance of normality.

The shoe fits. She's manipulative, the does things for her own benefit, plays with people because it is fun, lacks empathy... she's bold in dangerous situation, just look how on how much danger she pushed herself when trying to get her mother's boyfriend to fall for her and she still felt like there was little danger after. She's disinhibited when she acts because she cares more about the trill of the situation, she's essentially antisocial, forms no real bonds with people makes and discards people like they are just tools.

Brother... she's a textbook psychopath. Am I a kinder-gardener because I stick to how something is defined and apply it to a character?

 

[Darklight99]

Please... you can just look for it:

The shoe fits. She's manipulative, the does things for her own benefit, plays with0 people because it is fun, lacks empathy... she's bold in dangerous situation, just look how on how much danger she pushed herself when trying to get her mother's boyfriend to fall for her and she still felt like there was little danger after. She's disinhibited when she acts because she cares more about the trill of the situation, she's essentially antisocial, forms no real bonds with people makes and discards people like they are just tools.

Brother... she's a textbook psychopath. Am I a kinder-gardener because I stick to how something is defined and apply it to a character?

Very interesting, pray tell, where did you get your Psychiatry degree from? I would love to discuss Psychiatry with you since you seem to be a professional, after all, even professional experienced Psychiatrists wouldn't diagnose someone like Hebikawa but you did, so you must be even better than them, right?

 

[DMan_chine]

Hebikawa is not nasty in a deliberately hurtful way, she is just pro-active and forceful in positioning herself as a contender. It really bothers me when passiveness and blandness gets rewarded because of FMC plot armor. It would be interesting to see this manga end with passivity being a losing trait lesson.

Hebikawa is nasty because she enjoys the thrill of seeing people react to her. She likes when people like her and when she thinks it could be fun to play with them, she does even if that hurts them and KNOWS it hurts them. That's the point. She isn't just pro-active, she's impulsive, which is different. Let's not forget how she plays around with people even those that consider themselves her friends? Since she was small, she said so herself, she doesn't feel those relationship were real and used people as tools. That's if my memory serves me right. Hebikawa not being a murderer doesn't make her any less of an AWFUL person that plays around with peoples feelings.

Yes, I also dislike when characters are passive. And yes, I also want people to be more proactive... the Medaka one has a losing heroine that WAS proactive. Sucks. Then there's the "when we draw" another proactive character that seems like she's gonna lose. There's quite a lot like that. Maybe the only one that did it right was 2.5D.

 

[DMan_chine]

Very interesting, pray tell, where did you get your Psychiatry degree from? I would love to discuss Psychiatry with you since you seem to be a professional, after all, even professional experienced Psychiatrists wouldn't diagnose someone like Hebikawa but you did, so you must be even better than them, right?

What's this non-argument? If your point is that she isn't one, then make the arguments. I gave you a reason why I would consider her one.

 

[Darklight99]

Please... you can just look for it:

The shoe fits. She's manipulative, the does things for her own benefit, plays with people because it is fun, lacks empathy... she's bold in dangerous situation, just look how on how much danger she pushed herself when trying to get her mother's boyfriend to fall for her and she still felt like there was little danger after. She's disinhibited when she acts because she cares more about the trill of the situation, she's essentially antisocial, forms no real bonds with people makes and discards people like they are just tools.

Brother... she's a textbook psychopath. Am I a kinder-gardener because I stick to how something is defined and apply it to a character?

But since you're a little baby child, I'm gonna school you.
Her level of "manipulativeness" is nothing, I understand that since you're still in Kindergarten you haven't met many people, but Hebikawa like people are dime a dozen. She doesn't play with people for fun, she only messes with people when she thinks there is something going on, she messes with Kusunoki because she wants to prove to herself that she wasn't wrong about darkness in everyone, she messes with Keisuke when she wondered what was he trying to hide from her, when she found out, she left him alone. She even told him clearly that she won't mess with him anymore but she won't leave Kusunoki. She messed with her Mother's bf because she wanted him out of her mother's life, not because she wanted the thrill, she knew he was bad news so she wanted to make him break up with her Mom. And she was super scared when he grabbed her, she was sweating and shaking all over and has to desperately find someone to talk to because of it, she was only pretending to not care because she didn't want to lose control, literally even Keisuke figures that out immediately. She doesn't have close friends because when she has friends as a kid they started bullying her until she became their leader instead and has lived with that eat or be eaten mentality ever since.

You say textbook mentality, so I'll ask, what textbook have you studied Psychopathy under? Because Google AI isn't a textbook.

Nothing she's done is "anti-social" she's a mean high school girl at worst. She isn't the least bit violent or even interested in it, she doesn't bully people, she's a bitch and she knows it.

 

[Freeland]

Damn, we have people diagnosing Hebikawa as a psychopath now🤦‍♂️

People need to learn the terms before they throw them around so ignorantly

According to the DSM-5, the minimum age for an Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) diagnosis is 18, and only licensed mental health professionals with the appropriate qualifications can formally diagnose it through a proper clinical assessment

Hebikawa started off as an aspiring pure girl, just like Kusunoki, but she chose the wrong defense mechanism. Kusunoki blames herself, while Hebikawa fights back

What Hebi is doing right now is the sunk cost fallacy and doubling down. She wants to see the raw Kusunoki and the selfishness that is innate to human nature. Having her worldview shattered would cause huge psychological stress, so Hebikawa tries to avoid letting that happen. Hebikawa is redeemable

 

[Darklight99]

Damn, we have people diagnosing Hebikawa as a psychopath now🤦‍♂️

People need to learn the terms before they throw them around so ignorantly

According to the DSM-5, the minimum age for an Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) diagnosis is 18, and only licensed mental health professionals with the appropriate qualifications can formally diagnose it through a proper clinical assessment

Hebikawa started off as an aspiring pure girl, just like Kusunoki, but she chose the wrong defense mechanism. Kusunoki blames herself, while Hebikawa fights back

What Hebi is doing right now is the sunk cost fallacy and doubling down. She wants to see the raw Kusunoki and the selfishness that is innate to human nature. Having her worldview shattered would cause huge psychological stress, so Hebikawa tries to avoid letting that happen. Hebikawa is redeemable

Exactly, Hebikawa hasn't even done anything that bad, so I don't know what manga these people are reading. She said good morning to Keisuke a couple of times in Middle School and he fell in love with her, then she insulted him just like everyone else did, bitch move sure but iredeemable psychopath? Wtf??
All she's done in HS to Kusunoki is flirt with Keisuke to make her jealous, and these attempts are once every few months at worst. Psychopath? Come the fuck on.

 

[Kaito57]

Spoiler: Mami

has emotionally abusive and controlling parents. The boy she fell in love with and said they would be together forever dumped her after her parents threatend him. She also had a miscarriage, losing their child.

Yes you do need to take responsability for your actions. But that is that and this is this. Just because someone has done something horrible dosen't mean they shouldn't be treated with kindness. In fact, people respond better and are more willing to change when treated with kindness. When they are attacked they harden their heart and lash out in return. The world is against them any way so why should they change?

Damn... sucks for her on this one.

Fair point, but expecting MC to trust her again after what she did to him is still just her trying to force her way back in his life.

You're right : the girls don't really have any reason to not trust her (yet ?) aside from seeing her as a love rival but MC on the other hand is totally justified on wanting to stay far away and avoiding to be hurt again by her.

Besides, it's not like the world is against her from the start : she just keeps on doing things that make her hard to like !

 

[DMan_chine]

But since you're a little baby child, I'm gonna school you.

Have I called you names or insulted you? I called you obtuse, because you seemed to deliberately avoid a specific topic by talking about something else. You're here taking something I said so to heart that you need to insult me. It's ironic, btw. I said "this is what we would call a psychopath" not that I am making a diagnosis.

Regardless of whether she had "fun" for something or "felt scared" the point is she is doing it for thrills AND she lacks the feeling of danger of what she's doing.

She doesn't play with people for fun, she only messes with people when she thinks there is something going on

Are you trying to find nuances? Let's say I accept it wasn't for fun or the thrill... she's still messing around with people because it is interesting to mess around with people, at the expense of what they feel.

You say textbook mentality, so I'll ask, what textbook have you studied Psychopathy under? Because Google AI isn't a textbook.

I quoted Wikipedia because that's what's easily available. Need I remind you, Wikipedia has sources. Do you have some sort of superiority complex that you gotta assume you must better at something? If you're a psychiatrist, please tell me why she CAN'T fit the bill? A textbook definition doesn't mean "a definition coming from a textbook" it means that something fits the example/description/definition used for the concept. Why are you trying to use semantics to argue? Can you engage with the content and not the wording?

Nothing she's done is anti-social? She messes around with people, she schemes to make people do bad things, harassment. She doesn't have to insult or be violent, he just has to do things that bother others. The guy CLEARLY stated he doesn't like her and that he makes him feel anxious, and she kept doing things that made him feel bad, and essentially stalked him to mess around with him and harass him.

Iredeemable psychopath? Wtf??

When did I said irredeemable? You keep putting words in my mouth.

It's very hard to have a discussion with someone who acts like you. Especially someone that puts down others for something they disagree with. Suddenly, I must be bad because I can't make a diagnosis. Wow. So I can't discuss that Hebikawa's personality and actions mirror someone with psychopathy? Continuous ad hominems. Moving goal-posts. Cherry-picking. I would go as far as to say Gishgalloping too. Would you like to also Strawman me? You're extremely bad faith. I take my time to response to you correctly and yet this is how you operate. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

 

[DMan_chine]

According to the DSM-5, the minimum age for an Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) diagnosis is 18, and only licensed mental health professionals with the appropriate qualifications can formally diagnose it through a proper clinical assessment

Hebikawa started off as an aspiring pure girl, just like Kusunoki, but she chose the wrong defense mechanism. Kusunoki blames herself, while Hebikawa fights back

What Hebi is doing right now is the sunk cost fallacy and doubling down. She wants to see the raw Kusunoki and the selfishness that is innate to human nature. Having her worldview shattered would cause huge psychological stress, so Hebikawa tries to avoid letting that happen. Hebikawa is redeemable

For what is worth, I at least respect how you took this. Thank for taking your time to explain things correctly. It's not like I am saying Hebikawa didn't or doesn't have a rough life, and that her situation didn't create who she is. Neither that she cannot be redeemed. But the issue I have with her is that she has YET to some something redeemable. I have yet to see her regret her past or currect actions wholeheartedly and do strive to be better.

I would like to point out that, despite this, she's a FANTASTIC character. I really like her character. I also think Kusumoki is very boring as a character. So I don't want people to think I am not separating the two. I enjoy this story becasue Hebikawa is fun to read. She's a terrible person, but fun character.

 

[Darklight99]

Have I called you names or insulted you? I called you obtuse, because you seemed to deliberately avoid a specific topic by talking about something else. You're here taking something I said so to heart that you need to insult me. It's ironic, btw. I said "this is what we would call a psychopath" not that I am making a diagnosis.

Regardless of whether she had "fun" for something or "felt scared" the point is she is doing it for thrills AND she lacks the feeling of danger of what she's doing.

Are you trying to find nuances? Let's say I accept it wasn't for fun or the thrill... she's still messing around with people because it is interesting to mess around with people, at the expense of what they feel.

I quoted Wikipedia because that's what's easily available. Need I remind you, Wikipedia has sources. Do you have some sort of superiority complex that you gotta assume you must better at something? If you're a psychiatrist, please tell me why she CAN'T fit the bill? A textbook definition doesn't mean "a definition coming from a textbook" it means that something fits the example/description/definition used for the concept. Why are you trying to use semantics to argue? Can you engage with the content and not the wording?

Nothing she's done is anti-social?e messes around with people, she schemes to make people do bad things, harassment. She doesn't have to insult or be violent, he just has to do things that bother others. The guy CLEARLY stated he doesn't like her and that he makes him feel anxious, and she kept doing things that made him feel bad, and essentially stalked him to mess around with him and harass him.

When did I said irredeemable? You keep putting words in my mouth.

It's very hard to have a discussion with someone who acts like you. Especially someone that puts down others for something they disagree with. Suddenly, I must be bad because I can't make a diagnosis. Wow. So I can't discuss that Hebikawa's personality and actions mirror someone with psychopathy? Continuous ad hominems. Moving goal-posts. Cherry-picking. I would go as far as to say Gishgalloping too. Would you like to also Strawman me? You're extremely bad faith. I take my time to response to you correctly and yet this is how you operate. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

I think people who say retarded things should be insulted yes. Psychopathy is a medical diagnosis, you can't just say "this is what I think is psychopathy" and move on, just like you can't just say I think this character has diabetes without being capable of actually diagnosing it.
Again, she didn't mess around with the pedo because it was interesting, she did it to make her mother break up with the creepy pedophile.

You ignored both the manga and my reply where I said it again, so I guess I have to reiterate for the little child here, she is not doing it for thrills, don't know how you came to that retarded conclusion, she's doing it because she wants her Mother to break up with the pedophile. She isn't doing it because it's interesting to her either.

Semantics is very important as again, little child, it's an actual diagnosis, just like you can't argue about diabetes and say stop talking about semantics when someone more knowledgeable tells you you're wrong. I already typed out why she didn't fit the bill. Psychopathy is t just a line long definition, Wikipedia has sources but you didn't read those sources did you? You used Google AI even if you say you didn't.

Messing around with people isn't anti-social, you have to be very deep to be anti-social. Anti-social people straight up are disruptive to society as a whole and have trouble fitting in among general society, Hebikawa is barely a mean girl who's got a bitchy attitude. Her "schemes to make people do bad things" amounts to flirting with Keisuke once every few months at worst. And that's psychopathy to you? No one said that she doesn't have a bitchy attitude, she tried to figure out what Keisuke's problem with her was at the start and moved on when it wasn't interesting. After that their meetings were accidental, he has stopped feeling anxiety over her ages ago, so that's another random bs. She did try to mess with him again but it's a nothingburger that he only finds annoying now. That's anti-social to you?

I think people who uses psychiatric terms deserve to be insulted, I honestly controlled myself from saying way worse shit, so you should be thanking me if anything. Call her a bitch, a douchebag or whatever, don't use actual scientific and medical terms that you don't understand.

 

[Ragnolock]

Have I called you names or insulted you? I called you obtuse, because you seemed to deliberately avoid a specific topic by talking about something else. You're here taking something I said so to heart that you need to insult me. It's ironic, btw. I said "this is what we would call a psychopath" not that I am making a diagnosis.

Regardless of whether she had "fun" for something or "felt scared" the point is she is doing it for thrills AND she lacks the feeling of danger of what she's doing.

Are you trying to find nuances? Let's say I accept it wasn't for fun or the thrill... she's still messing around with people because it is interesting to mess around with people, at the expense of what they feel.

I quoted Wikipedia because that's what's easily available. Need I remind you, Wikipedia has sources. Do you have some sort of superiority complex that you gotta assume you must better at something? If you're a psychiatrist, please tell me why she CAN'T fit the bill? A textbook definition doesn't mean "a definition coming from a textbook" it means that something fits the example/description/definition used for the concept. Why are you trying to use semantics to argue? Can you engage with the content and not the wording?

Nothing she's done is anti-social? She messes around with people, she schemes to make people do bad things, harassment. She doesn't have to insult or be violent, he just has to do things that bother others. The guy CLEARLY stated he doesn't like her and that he makes him feel anxious, and she kept doing things that made him feel bad, and essentially stalked him to mess around with him and harass him.

When did I said irredeemable? You keep putting words in my mouth.

It's very hard to have a discussion with someone who acts like you. Especially someone that puts down others for something they disagree with. Suddenly, I must be bad because I can't make a diagnosis. Wow. So I can't discuss that Hebikawa's personality and actions mirror someone with psychopathy? Continuous ad hominems. Moving goal-posts. Cherry-picking. I would go as far as to say Gishgalloping too. Would you like to also Strawman me? You're extremely bad faith. I take my time to response to you correctly and yet this is how you operate. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously?

I would just avoid this guy. He will not argue in good faith, and will just resort to name calling for the sake of trying to derail the actual conversation. I will admit I behaved childishly by stooping to his level before, but I just resolve to not engage with him anymore. It's probably best that you do the same. Anyone who immediately resorts to calling someone a child in the first response is not worth your time.

I don't necessarily agree that she is behaving like a psychopath, but she is behaving without empathy. She is behaving recklessly, and has very self destructive tendencies (we saw that last chapter). I wouldn't go as far as saying she is like a psychopath tho. She does behave pretty antisocially given her treating people more like pawns, and less like a living breathing human being. A bad person? Yes. A psychopath? I wouldn't go that far.

 

[Darklight99]

I would just avoid this guy. He will not argue in good faith, and will just resort to name calling for the sake of trying to derail the actual conversation. I will admit I behaved childishly by stooping to his level before, but I just resolve to not engage with him anymore. It's probably best that you do the same. Anyone who immediately resorts to calling someone a child in the first response is not worth your time.

I don't necessarily agree that she is behaving like a psychopath, but she is behaving without empathy. She is behaving recklessly, and has very self destructive tendencies (we saw that last chapter). I wouldn't go as far as saying she is like a psychopath tho. She does behave pretty antisocially given her treating people more like pawns, and less like a living breathing human being. A bad person? Yes. A psychopath? I wouldn't go that far.

Still crying about me? Can't get off without me insulting you anymore huh? Sad little masochist you are.

 

[Asheron]

People diagnosing Hebikawa as a psychopath are missing the tone of the manga entirely. The actual situation would be much closer to her listening more to the kawaii devil than the kawaii angel circling her head who turn out to be best friends. Personalities are multi-faceted, unless you are written as a Mary Sue. Sometimes the bad influence is indulged, when its not seriously consequential, and sometimes not, when things are more serious.

Hebikawa is written as the charismatic bad girl you admire for her strengths, and for driving the manga forward, not the delinquent bad girl you want to see get a serious comeuppance. No one is reading the recent mom's boyfriend date and hoping for Hebikawa to suffer some correction. Look at the current Vol. 8 cover picture where she appears and that should say it all about the author's tone and the nature of Hebikawa's character.

 

[Chronigan]

Damn... sucks for her on this one.

Fair point, but expecting MC to trust her again after what she did to him is still just her trying to force her way back in his life.

You're right : the girls don't really have any reason to not trust her (yet ?) aside from seeing her as a love rival but MC on the other hand is totally justified on wanting to stay far away and avoiding to be hurt again by her.

Besides, it's not like the world is against her from the start : she just keeps on doing things that make her hard to like !

I agree. I think he is a Saint for being willing to help her.

At the beginning of the series he would not have been, but he has healed thanks to Kusunoki. While I don't think he trust or likes her, he is willing to do for her what he would do for any girl in trouble.

There mah also be some residual affection for her hidden way. Just enough for him to be a little kinder now that he has healed a lot of his trauma. But I doubt he has any sort of romantic feelings at all.

 

[jojoka]

Spoiler: Mami

has emotionally abusive and controlling parents. The boy she fell in love with and said they would be together forever dumped her after her parents threatend him. She also had a miscarriage, losing their child.

I haven't read ragf in years and the last I remember of the series was the cuck pool scene meme when tf did something that dark happen lmao