Boku no Ikezu na Konyakusha - Ch. 20.2

[arimareiji]

I'm really hoping that this is the catalyst for them actually sitting down and TALKING about their relationship and feelings. Sorata lives with them on his sleeve, but Miyuki needs to be open(at least to him, if no one else) about what she thinks and feels. She still hasn't noticed that he misunderstands her comments now and then, and keeping her feelings to herself instead of being open with the person she clearly does love only hurts him(and in return, herself. Like now)

Thank you for pointing out something else that's bugged me for a while… how artificial the premise is, that he grossly misunderstands what she's saying in the worst possible way. Thathe's extremely upset by it, but somehow never gives her any inkling that he's taking her words in such a harsh (and non-literal) light. That she never notices that he's upset (whether by cluelessness or because he never actually indicates it). Etc.

It doesn't matter to me who's "at fault" in the above. I just find it terribly contrived that somehow they're both so completely ignorant of their own feelings and each other's real feelings.

If he actually understood that she's choosing their school to be with him of her free will, Sorata would would also have accepted that she has special for him.
Her intentions are not clear-cut to him because they're being obfuscated by the will of her grandfather, whom he knows Miyuki holds dear.

If someone tells me they've chosen to be near me, I take them at their word. Maybe that's weird, but I've seen too many tragic IRL examples of people trying so hard to know what someone "really" means that they refuse to listen. Which strikes me as incredibly arrogant in some ways… "I know what you're thinking better than you do".

 

[UdenEmpati]

Before you assert that I don't know what I'm talking about, i.e. "You should maybe go back and read the actual dialogue":

Why are you deliberately ignoring the fact "Going to Tokyo was my choice" fits exactly what I said, that it was her choice?

And the fact that she follows up by filling in the rest of Ayano's position with "and that… going to the school that fit me was a waste"?

She's contradicting it by saying "No, the school I'm going to is the one that fit me" and making clear that she's not happy that Ayano is saying it's a waste. And she's already stated previously that she's happy going there, whether he remembers or not. Again, he's saying that he agrees with her brother that even if she chose otherwise, he and her brother know what she needs better than she does.

Your initial comment said

"I know you just told me you chose to be with me of your own will, and that you chose the school makes you happy"

And that is not what Miyuki said to Sorata. You're interpreting it that way, but it's not what she said or what Sorata is hearing.

Secondly, Miyuki isn't the one saying those lines in the last panel of page 7, Sorata is.

He's following up on Ayano's direct quote, with the sentiment Ayano expressed to him--in summary, that "it's a waste" that Miyuki went to a school that Sorata could get into, just because her grandfather wished it.
Because Ayano thinks Miyuki could do better, and he believes she's limiting herself by doing what their grandfather asked of her.

She's not contradicting Ayano's words. The "hmmm." speech bubble is Miyuki's response to Sorata saying all of that.
Because again, she's not sharing her thoughts with him.

Sorata knows that Miyuki treasures her grandfather, and she's never actually told him to his face that she wants to be with him, for their own sake, and not because of some arranged marriage decided by old people.

Everything Sorata's doing here, is because he believes his love is one-sided, and he cares about Miyuki enough that he'd rather be apart from her than see her stifled.

None of this is Sorata saying he "knows better than her". Because he doesn't actually know her true thoughts and feelings because she isn't direct with him about any of it.

 

[arimareiji]

Your initial comment said

"I know you just told me you chose to be with me of your own will, and that you chose the school makes you happy"

And that is not what Miyuki said to Sorata. You're interpreting it that way, but it's not what she said or what Sorata is hearing.

Secondly, Miyuki isn't the one saying those lines in the last panel of page 7, Sorata is.

He's following up on Ayano's direct quote, with the sentiment Ayano expressed to him--in summary, that "it's a waste" that Miyuki went to a school that Sorata could get into, just because her grandfather wished it.
Because Ayano thinks Miyuki could do better, and he believes she's limiting herself by doing what their grandfather asked of her.

She's not contradicting Ayano's words. The "hmmm." speech bubble is Miyuki's response to Sorata saying all of that.
Because again, she's not sharing her thoughts with him.

Sorata knows that Miyuki treasures her grandfather, and she's never actually told him to his face that she wants to be with him, for their own sake, and not because of some arranged marriage decided by old people.

Everything Sorata's doing here, is because he believes his love is one-sided, and he cares about Miyuki enough that he'd rather be apart from her than see her stifled.

None of this is Sorata saying he "knows better than her". Because he doesn't actually know her true thoughts and feelings because she isn't direct with him about any of it.

Sorata says that Ayano said XYZ about "me", when it's clear that it's about Miyuki?

Ok.

 

[DerpyVenom]

years of reading romance manga and i've never wanted to slam my forehead onto a desk that badly

 

[UdenEmpati]

Sorata says that Ayano said XYZ about "me", when it's clear that it's about Miyuki?

Ok.

Go back and read the chapter with the conversation between Ayano and Sorata.

Ayano was saying that he thinks it's a waste that Miyuki is going to a school that's objectively 'beneath her', solely because it's where Sorata was able to get into, all because her grandfather asked her to.

And Sorata is reiterating that sentiment of Ayano's, to Miyuki here, to explain what Ayano had told him to do.

 

[______ho_______]

Man I thought I was bad for reading so quickly, but people commenting without thinking for even a minute makes me wanna gouge my eyes.

😭😭😭

 

[UdenEmpati]

If someone tells me they've chosen to be near me, I take them at their word. Maybe that's weird, but I've seen too many tragic IRL examples of people trying so hard to know what someone "really" means that they refuse to listen. Which strikes me as incredibly arrogant in some ways… "I know what you're thinking better than you do".

This ignores the context that their relationship was arranged for them by their grandfathers before they were born.
And Miyuki very much loved her grandfather and still holds him in high regard.

Sorata is under every impression that Miyuki is with him, and came to Tokyo, entirely out of filial piety to the memory of her grandfather. And Miyuki has not said anything to refute that, because she struggles with being direct with her feelings toward Sorata.

Couple that with the constant derision Sorata experiences from everyone around him, saying he's delusional thinking Miyuki would date/marry him and that he's not good enough for her, and his doubts start to make sense.
Especially when Miyuki doesn't stand up for him and state her feelings directly.

 

[arimareiji]

Go back and read the chapter with the conversation between Ayano and Sorata.

Ayano was saying that he thinks it's a waste that Miyuki is going to a school that's objectively 'beneath her', solely because it's where Sorata was able to get into, all because her grandfather asked her to.

And Sorata is reiterating that sentiment of Ayano's, to Miyuki here, to explain what Ayano had told him to do.

He refers to her grandfather as "grandfather", not "your grandfather". And he puts himself in her place by saying "the school that fits me", when Ayano doesn't give two turds what school fits him — only what school fits Miyuki.

To clarify what I meant by "Ok": There's no common ground for us to understand each other, if you're that determined to see things in a light that matches what you believe. Which means further conversation about it won't help anyone understand anything, or make for a better world, so there's no point in us spending more time on the subject.

 

[Nehona]

"The school I want to go is the school where YOU are"

Is it really so impossible for this girl to say just that?

Then yes, he fumbled a bit but come on... she's the one who NEVER let him clearly know what she thinks. He has confessed and explained many times. Badly, yes. But he tried. But her....? Not really.

 

[______ho_______]

To clarify what I meant by "Ok": There's no common ground for us to understand each other, if you're that determined to see things in a light that matches what you believe. Which means further conversation about it won't help anyone understand anything, or make for a better world, so there's no point in us spending more time on the subject.

Agreed only because them we have to start talking translations and the raws....
Which are available 👍

 

[UdenEmpati]

He refers to her grandfather as "grandfather", not "your grandfather". And he puts himself in her place by saying "the school that fits me", when Ayano doesn't give two turds what school fits him — only what school fits Miyuki.

To clarify what I meant by "Ok": There's no common ground for us to understand each other, if you're that determined to see things in a light that matches what you believe. Which means further conversation about it won't help anyone understand anything, or make for a better world, so there's no point in us spending more time on the subject.

Chapter 16, page 25.
Sorata also refers to Miyuki's grandfather as simply "grandfather", as a form of endearment and familial familiarity.

Also Chapter 16, pagea 35-38.

Ayano tells Sorata it's a waste that Miyuki went to Tokyo simply because her beloved grandfather willed it, because she was an honor student who could get into much better institutions.
That "school that fit me" line, is Sorata being self-deprecating, echoing what Ayano and a ton of others have said to him.
Because he wouldn't be able to get into the sort of elite school that Miyuki could, and so she had to limit herself in order to go to school with him.

If you think there's no common ground here, then fair enough I guess.

I'm only replying because I think it important for passersby to be able to see where I'm coming from and decide for themselves.

Everything needed to understand the full dynamic narrative at play is in the 20 chapters posted thus far, so. Not hard to check and confirm things.

 

[arimareiji]

Agreed only because them we have to start talking translations and the raws....
Which are available 👍

Fair point, but I'm not qualified to second-guess the nuances of the translation (or even to evaluate the merits of someone who asserts "Well I was taught XYZ means ABC, so that proves they translated it wrong."). And tbh I have no real desire to look beyond the faith I have, that the people who gave us this chapter did a good job (even if I find the content of the chapter frustrating).

If they were actually creatively translating it to make the story reflect what they believe (instead of what the author said), a pox on them for doing so. But I don't believe that to be the case.

(Not to mention that imo, the manga has been built on a painfully-contrived-for-humor's-sake scenario from the get-go: Somehow he dreadfully misunderstands her, she dreadfully fails to understand him, they love each other, but somehow neither of them makes any serious effort to resolve any of these misunderstandings. So it's not hard for me to believe that ongoing developments are likewise contrived.)

All the best.

 

[______ho_______]

I'm crying 😭 I signed up for forums just for this thread. If this isn't definitive forum moment idk what is

 

[Honey13unn]

son dumb as shit

 

[arimareiji]

I'm crying 😭 I signed up for forums just for this thread. If this isn't definitive forum moment idk what is

This thread's made me reflect on the history of painfully-contrived scenarios in animanga, to a degree that I'm considering going back and rewatching Maison Ikkoku for comparison. Or slamming my hand in a car door repeatedly, not sure which. 😅

Spoiler: Maison Ikkoku spoiler from Wikipedia. It takes them almost 100 episodes to reach this point.

As things begin to really go well for Godai, Kozue Nanao makes a reappearance in his life. Kozue tells Godai and the other Maison Ikkoku tenants that she is thinking of marrying another man, and when Godai said he is planning his own proposal, Kozue misunderstands and believes he intends to propose to her. Kyoko, feeling foolish and betrayed, slaps Godai and demands that he move out. When Godai refuses, he wakes up the next morning to find she has left, moving in with her parents and leaving her room empty. Godai tries to explain himself by visiting Kyoko every day, but she refuses to answer the door or grant him an audience. After her rage cools, Kyoko checks on Maison Ikkoku and runs into the other tenants. They try to convince her to return.
The libertine Akemi, sensing that Kyoko is still hesitant, threatens to seduce Godai if Kyoko does not want him. She later tells the other tenants that she only said that to threaten Kyoko into coming back. However, this backfires when Kozue sees Godai leaving a love hotel with Akemi; innocently, he was called there only to cover the room fees. Before she learns the truth, Kozue accepts the marriage proposal from the other man. As Kyoko is about to return to Maison Ikkoku, she learns about the love hotel incident that has ended Godai's relationship with Kozue, but assumes he slept with Akemi. Kyoko insults Godai, tells him that she hates him, and runs away. Godai follows her, pleading that she does not trust him and that, despite the many misunderstandings he has had with other women, she never considered Godai's feelings.

 

[UdenEmpati]

Fair point, but I'm not qualified to second-guess the nuances of the translation (or even to evaluate the merits of someone who asserts "Well I was taught XYZ means ABC, so that proves they translated it wrong."). And tbh I have no real desire to look beyond the faith I have, that the people who gave us this chapter did a good job (even if I find the content of the chapter frustrating).

If they were actually creatively translating it to make the story reflect what they believe (instead of what the author said), a pox on them for doing so. But I don't believe that to be the case.

(Not to mention that imo, the manga has been built on a painfully-contrived-for-humor's-sake scenario from the get-go: Somehow he dreadfully misunderstands her, she dreadfully fails to understand him, they love each other, but somehow neither of them makes any serious effort to resolve any of these misunderstandings. So it's not hard for me to believe that ongoing developments are likewise contrived.)

All the best.

It's not even an issue of translation choices or interpretation. It's literally just how English works in a conversational sense.

The last panel of page 7 is a follow-up to the one preceding it.

• Miyuki asks Sorata what Ayano told him (panel 2).
• Sorata responds with a direct quote from Ayano, in quotations (panel 3).
• Sorata then continues on in the 4th panel with a paraphrasing of Ayano's words, taken from chapter 16 pages 35-38--in effect, Sorata recounts that Ayano thought it was "a waste" that Miyuki was squandering her potential by choosing a school solely because it "fit Sorata", just to fulfill her grandfather's will; i.e. fit Sorata's potential, which sits below that of Miyuki (in Ayano's and everyone else's estimation).

That's not dependent on the translators getting the Japanese>>English correct. That's just how English works, and it makes perfect sense when accounting for the past conversation/event that is being drawn from for this present one.

 

[Nyantardo]

Idiot.

 

[MilkDrinker]

Big mouth strikes again. Miyuki will remember that...

 

[yulel]

can't wait for the next chapter of valid idiot and dishonest brick

 

[DeOneChester]

Classic spineless self-sabotaging MC in a manga. This can't end without him autistically shouting his REAL feelings at her after fucking up, huh?