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glad to know there's so much trust there that sanjis first thought would be something like "why wouldn't I call her?"
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I hope sanji also goes to the rooftop
@savetheprince
Problem, Big Mom is also there, he could defend against her, but only because he must have known that there was nothing he could have done at the time to even bruise her. He'll be a liability, however, there's Jack and/or Queen to deal with while the other Strawhats are tied up with the Flying Six.
Problem, Big Mom is also there, he could defend against her, but only because he must have known that there was nothing he could have done at the time to even bruise her. He'll be a liability, however, there's Jack and/or Queen to deal with while the other Strawhats are tied up with the Flying Six.
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The clever Sanji killing two birds with one stone of (1) Literally asking for help in which he couldn't do anything about, and (2) Telling his allies that Kaido has surveillance system watching over them.
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LET'S GO ROBIN!!!!
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Dammmnnn that development with Sanji, I love it!! And Momonisuke in another lucky sukebe situation again, this kid is doing deeds matching with his father in some ways!!!
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that freaking perverted kid so lucky
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momonosuke got milk ^•^
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Anyone else feel like it was kind of weird seeing Sanji beg for Robin to come save him like that? It almost felt like it was out of character, it just felt so off to me for some reason. I understand that they're saying he's grown and now he's able to call for help in areas where he needs it without being too prideful, but it just seems like a sudden switch. I don't know what it is about this arc, but it just feel very off to me entirely. Something about the way the two yonkou's just suddenly teams up so easily, and the way they're being really nice to each other seems so off ... and how 5 of the worst generation is taking on two fucking yonkous at the same time ... the pacing of this entire arc, and half the time I kind of don't know what's going on. I know some people think this arc is really epic, but I personally feel like One Piece has gone down in quality over time and it's really kind of showing with this arc. Ya'll can flame me all you want if you disagree, but these are my honest feelings about it.
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Is it just me that's afraid that the "No thanks, I'd rather be dead" is some kind of foreshadowing? 😭
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@goodhunter I'm gonna try to answer without flaming.
I do think it's out of character for Sanji to cry for help in that kind of situation if we talk about pre-Whole Cake Island Sanji.
Sanji's reason for going to Whole Cake Island without his crews consent was that he wanted to bare the burden of handling his family problems by himself, because he alone felt responsible for them. What he learned from that whole arc was that sharing his burden with his crew members is part of what it means to be member of that crew.
That growth can be seen at that very moment. He can now cry for help even if he's in a situation caused by his own limitations, in this case his stance towards not fighting woman. Crying for, especially Robin's, help is a huge step for him. It's the absolute anti-thesis to him getting beaten up by Khalifa and Nami having to rescue him only when he was too weak to fight being rescued.
It's okay to think this is out of character for Sanji, because it is, because his character changed.
Now the team-up of the two Yonko ... is pretty drastic, but not as surprising to me. Both have been shown to be able to work with other parties under certain conditions. Kaido has had deals/cooporations with Mingo and Orochi and even took in two of the Supernovas who came to kill him. Big Mom is really all about forging alliances to her benefit. Now you could argue why would they team-up with someone of their own power-level? Well, it's not too far off considering both are relatively level-headed when it comes to negotiations and have been part of the same crew before and were seemingly on good terms. Even Whitebeard and Shanks had meetings in the past on just friendly terms. The 4 emporors were a part of the power balance precisely because they didn't tear each other down, because all parties had too much standing to lose. Them teaming up is kinda a logical step at this point, because Blackbeard kinda usurped the stalemate between the 4 after Whitebeards passing, because he's way more aggressive in his strife to gain power. Shanks is probably left out, because he wouldn't ally himself with eigher BM or Kaido. He did stop Kaido from intercepting Whitebeard from going to Marineford afterall. As an allied force, BM and Kaido have now the highest chance of crushing all the singled out big shots that are left. There's also the point that by ruining the Vinsmoke/BM connection and the Mingo/Kaido deal, the Strawhats did remove some major assets for both emporors. Allying against a common enemy seems like a no-brainer at that point.
Now to 5 Supernovas taking on 2 Yonko. It's nuts. It's also kind of a forced move. Chances are higher that it fails, but what are the remaining options? Escaping would only prolong them chasing them down again. BM isn't there with her whole crew, Kaido got his smile production cut off. Both crews don't have any of their subordinate pirate crews around, except the ones like Hawkins and Apoos. The Strawhat alliance on the other hand was able to gather the minks and Samurai as allies. Escaping now would only lead to being out-numbered later. It's really a do-or-die situation right now.
Now to quality going down. You probably mean that so much is going on at the same time, many cuts to different places, nothing gets really fleshed out, it feels, and just an overall feeling of no real focus being there? I can kinda empathize with that feeling. Every plot has become more complex since like ... Dressarosa, I'd say? There was a change in how I consume One Piece since that time. I tend to go back a lot and re-read chapters, sometime just looking at panels without reading and just comprehending the situation. I also like watching fights which take place over multiple chapters/episodes cut together on Youtube. Helps with understanding the flow of the fights.
One Piece having become too big in sense is a valid point of criticism. You can eigher try to roll with it and find a way to enjoy it or you can't, pretty much. Overall I can't say it's a drop in quality for me though, just shift to other qualities.
I do think it's out of character for Sanji to cry for help in that kind of situation if we talk about pre-Whole Cake Island Sanji.
Sanji's reason for going to Whole Cake Island without his crews consent was that he wanted to bare the burden of handling his family problems by himself, because he alone felt responsible for them. What he learned from that whole arc was that sharing his burden with his crew members is part of what it means to be member of that crew.
That growth can be seen at that very moment. He can now cry for help even if he's in a situation caused by his own limitations, in this case his stance towards not fighting woman. Crying for, especially Robin's, help is a huge step for him. It's the absolute anti-thesis to him getting beaten up by Khalifa and Nami having to rescue him only when he was too weak to fight being rescued.
It's okay to think this is out of character for Sanji, because it is, because his character changed.
Now the team-up of the two Yonko ... is pretty drastic, but not as surprising to me. Both have been shown to be able to work with other parties under certain conditions. Kaido has had deals/cooporations with Mingo and Orochi and even took in two of the Supernovas who came to kill him. Big Mom is really all about forging alliances to her benefit. Now you could argue why would they team-up with someone of their own power-level? Well, it's not too far off considering both are relatively level-headed when it comes to negotiations and have been part of the same crew before and were seemingly on good terms. Even Whitebeard and Shanks had meetings in the past on just friendly terms. The 4 emporors were a part of the power balance precisely because they didn't tear each other down, because all parties had too much standing to lose. Them teaming up is kinda a logical step at this point, because Blackbeard kinda usurped the stalemate between the 4 after Whitebeards passing, because he's way more aggressive in his strife to gain power. Shanks is probably left out, because he wouldn't ally himself with eigher BM or Kaido. He did stop Kaido from intercepting Whitebeard from going to Marineford afterall. As an allied force, BM and Kaido have now the highest chance of crushing all the singled out big shots that are left. There's also the point that by ruining the Vinsmoke/BM connection and the Mingo/Kaido deal, the Strawhats did remove some major assets for both emporors. Allying against a common enemy seems like a no-brainer at that point.
Now to 5 Supernovas taking on 2 Yonko. It's nuts. It's also kind of a forced move. Chances are higher that it fails, but what are the remaining options? Escaping would only prolong them chasing them down again. BM isn't there with her whole crew, Kaido got his smile production cut off. Both crews don't have any of their subordinate pirate crews around, except the ones like Hawkins and Apoos. The Strawhat alliance on the other hand was able to gather the minks and Samurai as allies. Escaping now would only lead to being out-numbered later. It's really a do-or-die situation right now.
Now to quality going down. You probably mean that so much is going on at the same time, many cuts to different places, nothing gets really fleshed out, it feels, and just an overall feeling of no real focus being there? I can kinda empathize with that feeling. Every plot has become more complex since like ... Dressarosa, I'd say? There was a change in how I consume One Piece since that time. I tend to go back a lot and re-read chapters, sometime just looking at panels without reading and just comprehending the situation. I also like watching fights which take place over multiple chapters/episodes cut together on Youtube. Helps with understanding the flow of the fights.
One Piece having become too big in sense is a valid point of criticism. You can eigher try to roll with it and find a way to enjoy it or you can't, pretty much. Overall I can't say it's a drop in quality for me though, just shift to other qualities.
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@Frozeneye wow, much respect for actual response with decent reasoning without getting angry like a lot of people do.
Anyhow, your reasoning is sound but I guess I don't agree with all the nuances of it at the end of the day. Sanji's change feels like it went it hyperdrive, it was a real sudden 180. I dunno how I feel about that, I think I prefer to see some of the gradual changes instead of having a big arc, then sudden instant change afterwards. A manga is a better medium than say a movie to build character, movies are constrained within couple hours to try to build character growth, and even then within that constraint some movies really do it masterfully without having it seem too sudden. Making it too sudden makes it a little jarring, and can get a lot of push back or aversion from the audience. Quality character building shows more nuanced processes imo. But maybe that's just my personal opinion in what good character growth seems like.
Now if what you say about the Yonko teaming up is correct, then I'd say it's reasonable for them to team up, but at the end of the day everything you stated is just speculation at this point unless Oda confirms it or it's revealed through the story. And imo the Yonko didn't fuck with each other for different reasons. We clearly know that Shanks and Whitebeard were actually good people and so it's clear that they won't fight each other unless it's absolutely necessary for something. We have no idea what kind of relationship Big Mom and Kaido had, but they seem to be the more streamlined villain characters, and also the type to very full of themselves. From what it seemed, they never seemed like the types who'd join up with another yonko, but rather just do their own thing their own way. And their loss from either the Vinsmoke or Domingo doesn't seem all that big enough for them to conosider Strawhat a threat enough to team up with a fellow yonko that they don't really see eye to eye with. We have no indication that either Big Mom or Kaido is worried or cares about Blackbeard at all, so anything in regards to that is pure speculation, even if it may be a reasonable speculation. So who knows really, but it imo it just still seems a little forced and just way too sudden. Oda sure likes his surprises, so I think he skips out on helpful exposition of processes that would lead up to such huge plot points. So at the end of the day, I don't find the way he made this alliance happen sufficient for me to believe that this is something that is in character for them and not just a contrived plot device. This would have been so much better if Oda showed some reasoning for them making an alliance or shows a scene where each yonko's internal monologue on the benefits they'll get from allying with the other yonko. Of course, who knows. Oda might just pull another surprise on why the yonko teamed up. Could be that either or both had ulterior motives and are just using each other. Or even possibly utilizing it to back stab each other, or something. If so, then I guess my complaint about no reasoning then is moot point.
In terms of the 5 supernovas vs the yonkos, I'm not saying that the supernovas should just leave the battle right now, but more so pointing to the fact that that it's so ridiculous that they're even fighting in the first place. Oda clearly portrayed the yonko still much more extremely powerful than each of the supernovas. We saw Kaido pretty much oneshot Luffy near the beginning of this arc, Kid was already captured and overpowered, as well as Killer. Furthermore, we saw Luffy just barely beat Katakuri. so he's definitely not at any level to challenge Big Mom either. The yonko each showed enough power where they'd easily be able to take on 3 supernovas on their own. Now two are teamed up against just a mere 5? This is ridiculous, and if the supernovas end up winning the battle, it would give off extreme deus ex machina vibes. Oda has to take it in a direction where winning was the ordeal in this fight, and that something else happens for them not to just be wiped out.
As to the quality thing, sure. Let's say that the different cuts is just a different style and that it just happens to not be to my liking. Well, it's not like I haven't read/watched other media that utilizes multiple plot points going on, and some have been shitty and not well executed, and some have been done well. So in my opinion, I just don't think Oda does it all to well enough. And with any manga that goes for a long time, I think it's just been built up too much for too long that it's kind of losing its quality. Sometimes, ending it on a shorter note makes it so much better than having it go on and on where it's just getting too big at a certain point. I think One Piece is definitely at that point, and I think it really needs to end within an arc or two after this current arc, but I just don't see that happening with the amount of plot points that Oda has already laid out, and I think that's his double edged sword that's working against him in the long run. I think it would have been better if he stuck to couple very strong plot points to stay with and focus on. Having too much of anything is never good, moderation and balance is key. In the beginning of the manga, a lot of plot points can be good because there is still so much time and space to build into it, but when a series has gone on for so long and it still seems to have a lot of different plot points going on that needs to be resolved, it becomes too much.
Regardless though, I appreciate the discussion
Anyhow, your reasoning is sound but I guess I don't agree with all the nuances of it at the end of the day. Sanji's change feels like it went it hyperdrive, it was a real sudden 180. I dunno how I feel about that, I think I prefer to see some of the gradual changes instead of having a big arc, then sudden instant change afterwards. A manga is a better medium than say a movie to build character, movies are constrained within couple hours to try to build character growth, and even then within that constraint some movies really do it masterfully without having it seem too sudden. Making it too sudden makes it a little jarring, and can get a lot of push back or aversion from the audience. Quality character building shows more nuanced processes imo. But maybe that's just my personal opinion in what good character growth seems like.
Now if what you say about the Yonko teaming up is correct, then I'd say it's reasonable for them to team up, but at the end of the day everything you stated is just speculation at this point unless Oda confirms it or it's revealed through the story. And imo the Yonko didn't fuck with each other for different reasons. We clearly know that Shanks and Whitebeard were actually good people and so it's clear that they won't fight each other unless it's absolutely necessary for something. We have no idea what kind of relationship Big Mom and Kaido had, but they seem to be the more streamlined villain characters, and also the type to very full of themselves. From what it seemed, they never seemed like the types who'd join up with another yonko, but rather just do their own thing their own way. And their loss from either the Vinsmoke or Domingo doesn't seem all that big enough for them to conosider Strawhat a threat enough to team up with a fellow yonko that they don't really see eye to eye with. We have no indication that either Big Mom or Kaido is worried or cares about Blackbeard at all, so anything in regards to that is pure speculation, even if it may be a reasonable speculation. So who knows really, but it imo it just still seems a little forced and just way too sudden. Oda sure likes his surprises, so I think he skips out on helpful exposition of processes that would lead up to such huge plot points. So at the end of the day, I don't find the way he made this alliance happen sufficient for me to believe that this is something that is in character for them and not just a contrived plot device. This would have been so much better if Oda showed some reasoning for them making an alliance or shows a scene where each yonko's internal monologue on the benefits they'll get from allying with the other yonko. Of course, who knows. Oda might just pull another surprise on why the yonko teamed up. Could be that either or both had ulterior motives and are just using each other. Or even possibly utilizing it to back stab each other, or something. If so, then I guess my complaint about no reasoning then is moot point.
In terms of the 5 supernovas vs the yonkos, I'm not saying that the supernovas should just leave the battle right now, but more so pointing to the fact that that it's so ridiculous that they're even fighting in the first place. Oda clearly portrayed the yonko still much more extremely powerful than each of the supernovas. We saw Kaido pretty much oneshot Luffy near the beginning of this arc, Kid was already captured and overpowered, as well as Killer. Furthermore, we saw Luffy just barely beat Katakuri. so he's definitely not at any level to challenge Big Mom either. The yonko each showed enough power where they'd easily be able to take on 3 supernovas on their own. Now two are teamed up against just a mere 5? This is ridiculous, and if the supernovas end up winning the battle, it would give off extreme deus ex machina vibes. Oda has to take it in a direction where winning was the ordeal in this fight, and that something else happens for them not to just be wiped out.
As to the quality thing, sure. Let's say that the different cuts is just a different style and that it just happens to not be to my liking. Well, it's not like I haven't read/watched other media that utilizes multiple plot points going on, and some have been shitty and not well executed, and some have been done well. So in my opinion, I just don't think Oda does it all to well enough. And with any manga that goes for a long time, I think it's just been built up too much for too long that it's kind of losing its quality. Sometimes, ending it on a shorter note makes it so much better than having it go on and on where it's just getting too big at a certain point. I think One Piece is definitely at that point, and I think it really needs to end within an arc or two after this current arc, but I just don't see that happening with the amount of plot points that Oda has already laid out, and I think that's his double edged sword that's working against him in the long run. I think it would have been better if he stuck to couple very strong plot points to stay with and focus on. Having too much of anything is never good, moderation and balance is key. In the beginning of the manga, a lot of plot points can be good because there is still so much time and space to build into it, but when a series has gone on for so long and it still seems to have a lot of different plot points going on that needs to be resolved, it becomes too much.
Regardless though, I appreciate the discussion
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@goodhunter Aw, thank you man! Your way of stating your points is also very decent. I like discussing with reasonable people.
I can see your point of Sanji shift being too fast. It honestly felt a little surprising to me as well. I guess it was Odas intention to surprise people, otherwise he wouldn't have set-up all the expectations with how Marias subordinates expect Sanji to react and then subverting those set expectations by making Sanji do the opposite. For me it was a pleasant surprise, but I think it's a fair point wanting to see a gradual change instead. It's just hard to pull that off in a story that has grown so big and filled with so many characters. Even giving the main cast enough screen time has gotten difficult at this point. That's what makes me thankful that Oda still uses single moments like this to show those changes in character. It probably really a case of different tastes at this point. I've never really been a fan of any particular character in OP and always just loved the overall story and world building so the way Oda handles his characters more as plot devices is fine for me, but someone who value individual character progression more probably sees that differently, so I get your point.
I can see your point of viewing WB and Shanks as the more streamlined "good" Yonkos and BM and Kaido as the "evil" ones. I wouldn't fully agree with BM and Kaido being very full of themselves though and that they don't seem like the type to join up with another Yonko. I think so far all of their interactions have been shown to be superficially on good terms, even stating that BM gave Kaido his DF in the past. They sailed under the same flag with Xebec at some point so they have at least some degree of willingness to be subordinate to someone else and/or being able to work together with someone of similar power level.
They may not view the Strawhat alliance as THE threat, but they are at least a threat to their current goals. They also seem to understand that infighting between them would just be what their enemies want right now and teaming up just seems like the most reasonable choice to swiftly crush them while they're here. But you're right, without taking a look into their thoughts nothing can really be confirmed or denied. They probably also still scheme against each other regardless as you said, because why wouldn't they. Pirates alliance do always end the same way after all.
The Blackbeard part wasn't really meant to imply that BM and Kaido care about him in anyway, but WB did leave a power vacuum behind. Rest is really just assumption on my part, but the overall power balance has undeniably been disturbed, so see BM and Kaido considering new options like their alliance isn't all that surprising to me.
I agree with you that I can't see the 5 Supernovas winning this. It's just not reasonable. Kid and Killer just feel the weakest, because they've lost to Kaido solo previously and the same goes for Luffy kind of. Law's upper boundary as a fighter has been obvious from the start and he's just a better supporter anyways, even if he doesn't like it. Weirdly enough Zoro is kind of a wild card right now, because of the Enma stuff and the fact he hasn't really been in position to show is upper boundary post time skip yet. Pica was his biggest fight yet, but was a bad match-up for him and was a more chase-him-down fight than a true 1v1.
A lot of things have to come together to resolve this fight and I can't see it being by a clear win for the strawhat alliance. Right now repelling the two Yonkos and somehow making them leave Wano is more reasonable than clearly defeating them. Somehow forcing them into a retreat maybe, but a clear win would feel weird.
Ain't gonna argue about Odas current style of telling the story being good or not, it's really just the tool he chose to tell it with. I could agree that he's probably "eating more than he can chew" (not a native speaker, so no idea if that the proper use of that phrase).
He has set his goals very high for what amount of plot he wants to tell and it really shows by how much he tries to compress the information he wants to give into single chapters. He's probably holding back a lot of stuff that would help with comprehending his plots. So you're right with saying that he should probably do the opposite and shrink down his own plot and make it fit the medium he's telling it with more.
It's just that I love this huge plot he has been building up for so long. I enjoy all of this world building so much and could just go on reading this forever. Him just adding even more plot points and growing the OP world even more is so satisfying to me. But that's probably also because of my personal taste. I'm also someone who absolutely enjoys the 'current' succession contest arc in HunterxHunter lol
I can see your point of Sanji shift being too fast. It honestly felt a little surprising to me as well. I guess it was Odas intention to surprise people, otherwise he wouldn't have set-up all the expectations with how Marias subordinates expect Sanji to react and then subverting those set expectations by making Sanji do the opposite. For me it was a pleasant surprise, but I think it's a fair point wanting to see a gradual change instead. It's just hard to pull that off in a story that has grown so big and filled with so many characters. Even giving the main cast enough screen time has gotten difficult at this point. That's what makes me thankful that Oda still uses single moments like this to show those changes in character. It probably really a case of different tastes at this point. I've never really been a fan of any particular character in OP and always just loved the overall story and world building so the way Oda handles his characters more as plot devices is fine for me, but someone who value individual character progression more probably sees that differently, so I get your point.
I can see your point of viewing WB and Shanks as the more streamlined "good" Yonkos and BM and Kaido as the "evil" ones. I wouldn't fully agree with BM and Kaido being very full of themselves though and that they don't seem like the type to join up with another Yonko. I think so far all of their interactions have been shown to be superficially on good terms, even stating that BM gave Kaido his DF in the past. They sailed under the same flag with Xebec at some point so they have at least some degree of willingness to be subordinate to someone else and/or being able to work together with someone of similar power level.
They may not view the Strawhat alliance as THE threat, but they are at least a threat to their current goals. They also seem to understand that infighting between them would just be what their enemies want right now and teaming up just seems like the most reasonable choice to swiftly crush them while they're here. But you're right, without taking a look into their thoughts nothing can really be confirmed or denied. They probably also still scheme against each other regardless as you said, because why wouldn't they. Pirates alliance do always end the same way after all.
The Blackbeard part wasn't really meant to imply that BM and Kaido care about him in anyway, but WB did leave a power vacuum behind. Rest is really just assumption on my part, but the overall power balance has undeniably been disturbed, so see BM and Kaido considering new options like their alliance isn't all that surprising to me.
I agree with you that I can't see the 5 Supernovas winning this. It's just not reasonable. Kid and Killer just feel the weakest, because they've lost to Kaido solo previously and the same goes for Luffy kind of. Law's upper boundary as a fighter has been obvious from the start and he's just a better supporter anyways, even if he doesn't like it. Weirdly enough Zoro is kind of a wild card right now, because of the Enma stuff and the fact he hasn't really been in position to show is upper boundary post time skip yet. Pica was his biggest fight yet, but was a bad match-up for him and was a more chase-him-down fight than a true 1v1.
A lot of things have to come together to resolve this fight and I can't see it being by a clear win for the strawhat alliance. Right now repelling the two Yonkos and somehow making them leave Wano is more reasonable than clearly defeating them. Somehow forcing them into a retreat maybe, but a clear win would feel weird.
Ain't gonna argue about Odas current style of telling the story being good or not, it's really just the tool he chose to tell it with. I could agree that he's probably "eating more than he can chew" (not a native speaker, so no idea if that the proper use of that phrase).
He has set his goals very high for what amount of plot he wants to tell and it really shows by how much he tries to compress the information he wants to give into single chapters. He's probably holding back a lot of stuff that would help with comprehending his plots. So you're right with saying that he should probably do the opposite and shrink down his own plot and make it fit the medium he's telling it with more.
It's just that I love this huge plot he has been building up for so long. I enjoy all of this world building so much and could just go on reading this forever. Him just adding even more plot points and growing the OP world even more is so satisfying to me. But that's probably also because of my personal taste. I'm also someone who absolutely enjoys the 'current' succession contest arc in HunterxHunter lol
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