A Sword Master Childhood Friend Power Harassed Me Harshly, so I Broke off Our Relationship and Made a Fresh Start at the Frontier as a Magic Swordsma…

[Dwarfy2k]

-snip-

Yeah I'd say SAO counts as an isekai, specifically things like the fact they are trapped in the world and if they die they die for real so for all intents and purposes they are in another world until they escape. Oldest isekai I can think of is Magical girl rayearth. But yeah like you say it's more about themes then just the otherworldly part.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Yeah I'd say SAO counts as an isekai, specifically things like the fact they are trapped in the world and if they die they die for real so for all intents and purposes they are in another world until they escape. Oldest isekai I can think of is Magical girl rayearth. But yeah like you say it's more about themes then just the otherworldly part.

SAO has the same trappings as the isekai genre, pun intended.

I think Fushigi Yugi might be older, but don't quote me on that. I quite like El Hazard, but that's a few years younger, I believe.

The oldest Japanese isekai is probably Urashima Taro. The precursor to that is probably journey epics, like the Odyssey, since while they don't involve a different world, in many cases it might as well be. Wouldn't surprise me if there are elements borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh somewhere in there as well. Suffice to say, people have been thinking about other worlds for a long time.

 

[CrimsonNanashi]

I'm not sure I'd say "much more interesting" as far as "currently more in focus".


Of those, I think only Overlord is older, but they're all more on the monster side of reincarnation, so they're not what I'd say is the same brand of isekai.

SAO is an isekai in my mind, because they're stuck in there (original arc, at least). It also spawned a ton of isekai followers. The VR subgenre shares a lot of traits with actual otherworldly isekai, which is why I'd classify it as the same overall genre. It all depends on how widely or narrowly you define it. I don't think genres are about specific things existing or not, but rather about general ideas and themes, and much more about the overall feel of the works.

I feel like we should just classify isekai as one having to go to a world separate from their original world. Otherwise we’re going to end up crowding the genre with series no one would normally call an isekai. Hades if we go to such a broad category where SAO is an isekai then Inuyasha and Ryuuroden would also be considered an isekai. Also the first season of SAO still has their body in the real world.

Of those three overlord did come out before Mushoku however I believe slime came out only a few months after it. A lot of the other series I mentioned did come out before it though like Problem children and Familiar of Zero.

For isekai there’s three main ways it happens, summoned by a country as you are, summoned by a deity and reborn or just being reborn without a deity or kingdom doing the summoning. Mushoku falls under the third category I believe as do slime and overlord and both are far better series in terms of story, characters and worldbuilding. Mushoku is fine in those categories but it does suffer due to bad writing on the author’s part (see the nuke example I gave before).

Not to mention that Mushoku isn’t as popular as many series I listed. It has about 12k readers while slime has 26k readers, death mage has 29k readers, spider has 26k, and even sword bro has 17k readers. These are the stats for readers of the novel btw. Fact is that while Mushoku isn’t a bad series it still isn’t the father of isekai nor is it the one that popularized the genre. Many better series hold the crown for that

 

[CrimsonNanashi]

I think Fushigi Yugi might be older, but don't quote me on that.

Fushigi Yuugi came out in 91 while Rayearth came out in 93 so you’re right about it being older. Ryuuroden came out in 93 as well for the record. It’s a good series that I’d suggest trying. MC is sent to the three kingdoms era of China with his childhood friend.

 

[CrimsonNanashi]

Also, fun fact which I just found out, Re:Zero came out before Mushoku Tensei so that’s another series that predates it. ReZero came out in April while Mushoku came out in November

Edit: also Tsuki ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu also came out before Mushoku and that series is amazing. I 100% recommended reading that novel as it’s so dam fun to read

 

[Dwarfy2k]

-snip-

According (Take with a spoon of salt) Isekai Wiki entry Isekai means different or otherworld and one part that's important to note "It includes novels, light novels, films, manga, anime and video games that revolve around a displaced person or people who are transported to and have to survive in another world, such as a fantasy world, virtual world, or parallel universe."

So yeah for me overall I'd classify stuff like that as Isekai (Although not their only genre). I tihnk it's fine for isekai to be very encompassing cause it's the other genre tags that go with it that are more important. As an aside I almost thing OP MC/FMC should be a genre tag at this point lol.

But I digress that obviously this subject will be like the whole Roguelike/Rougelite argument with no-one able to come to a consensus.

 

[CrimsonNanashi]

According (Take with a spoon of salt) Isekai Wiki entry Isekai means different or otherworld and one part that's important to note "It includes novels, light novels, films, manga, anime and video games that revolve around a displaced person or people who are transported to and have to survive in another world, such as a fantasy world, virtual world, or parallel universe."

So yeah for me overall I'd classify stuff like that as Isekai (Although not their only genre). I tihnk it's fine for isekai to be very encompassing cause it's the other genre tags that go with it that are more important. As an aside I almost thing OP MC/FMC should be a genre tag at this point lol.

But I digress that obviously this subject will be like the whole Roguelike/Rougelite argument with no-one able to come to a consensus.

Honestly the entire reason why I draw such a hard line that the world has to be separate from the original world (ie unable to really go back and forth between the new world and old world) as this would cause a number of sci-fi stuff like Star Wars and Star Trek to be classified as isekai series. We also end up adding Cat Planet Cuties and Girls Bravo into the genre as reverse isekai series. I don’t think anyone wants to list SW and ST as isekai do you?

 

[Dwarfy2k]

Honestly the entire reason why I draw such a hard line that the world has to be separate from the original world (ie unable to really go back and forth between the new world and old world) as this would cause a number of sci-fi stuff like Star Wars and Star Trek to be classified as isekai series. We also end up adding Cat Planet Cuties and Girls Bravo into the genre as reverse isekai series. I don’t think anyone wants to list SW and ST as isekai do you?

Actually wouldn't Star Trek count? Specially with it's otherworld and then in later movies the JJ universe that original spock went too?

Things like SAO count cause while they can go back, that's only if they win the game (Like said before obviously only the first story) I mean many Isekai specially the fantasy ones the person summoned can go back once the win so then do they not count? Do the Isekai series that have it so people can switch worlds freely between the 2 then also not count as Isekai?

 

[XNFEdayo]

Studying manga for psychology is like studying historical fiction for history. Sure, you can study it and train your analysing skills, but everything is made up and dramatised, so there's no guarantee it's accurate to real life.

You know the difference between reading something and studying something? To study, you're looking into it, figuring out the fluff, analyzing that fluff, and then analyzing the non-fluff parts to figure out the 5 w and 1 h. Real life is nothing but dramatized events, every single story told by every single person are not "pure facts" but "facts as they were subjectively observed". You're hardly ever getting the true facts. Looking at manga for psychology you're not JUST looking at the events of the manga, you're comparing them to real life, you're examining how they would play out in real life, you're questioning the thought process that led the author to dramatize things in that direction. And this process is the exact same when you study real people (except the "author" is the person in question). So much more go into it than you realize, and that is just a simplified version of what it means to study something.

The same applies to "studying historical fiction for history" for one it's usually more interesting and studying people's take on something can be more educational than learning just the "facts" themselves.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Hades if we go to such a broad category where SAO is an isekai then Inuyasha and Ryuuroden would also be considered an isekai.

Of those three overlord did come out before Mushoku however I believe slime came out only a few months after it. A lot of the other series I mentioned did come out before it though like Problem children and Familiar of Zero.

Yes, those are isekai. And if you want to try to define a subgenre of isekai, go for it. Get people to listen to you. I know what I think of it, though. And I don't think the way the character is summoned is genre-defining. It's a method for reaching the start of the plot, but doesn't define how it plays out or what kind of story it is. Well, usually.

Familiar of Zero is one of the most influential works in the Japanese isekai scene, but I find it often forgotten in discussions about the genre, even when it's talking about older works. It created so much fanfiction that many of the authors of those fanfics went on to write their own original (more or less) isekai stories. Mushoku, for instance.

Problem Children has a relatively unique world, but I never hear anyone talk about it. Which is a shame, really.

And as I said, Slime and Overlord fit other subgenres of isekai. Those are more focused on the monster and villain side of things, while Mushoku is more focused on overpowered heroes. But at the end of it, arguing that something is more popular doesn't mean something else isn't popular or influential. Personally I'm just going by what I've read others regard as being influential, since for the most part we're talking about Japanese works here, and most of us don't know all that much about how the Japanese view their works.

Edit: also Tsuki ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu also came out before Mushoku and that series is amazing. I 100% recommended reading that novel as it’s so dam fun to read

I've read part of it, but I've also heard it gets darker and darker, which may or may not be true, but if it is, I don't think it's for me.

I don’t think anyone wants to list SW and ST as isekai do you?

Why? Is there a problem including lots of works to a genre? I mean, I don't think they fit for other reasons, but I don't see why there has to be such gatekeeping.

The same applies to "studying historical fiction for history" for one it's usually more interesting and studying people's take on something can be more educational than learning just the "facts" themselves.

My point is that you're not going to learn how schizophrenia develops, what the symptoms are, and how to treat it, from a random work of fiction that includes it. Sure, you can learn lots of philosophical stuff from analysing a story including it, and that tells you stuff about the author and the story, but it doesn't tell you how it works in reality.

You also cannot just dismiss reality or equate it to fictional works because we perceive it subjectively.

 

[CrimsonNanashi]

I've read part of it, but I've also heard it gets darker and darker, which may or may not be true, but if it is, I don't think it's for me.

There’s some dark stuff to it but that’s mainly in relation to what one of the bad guys is doing. Series is mostly light though with a rather great main cast of Characters. There’s a lot of really satisfying stuff in it and I fully recommend reading it.

In regards to popularity one has to rely on that to figure out what series could be considered the father of isekai. Would you not agree series that’s not even half as popular as a series that came out before it could never be considered the father of a genre?

The bit about the three ways was just me saying what route a isekai usually goes. That was really just directed at your bit about the brand of isekai. There are outliers outside those routes but most go one of those three routes. If you wanna exclude being reincarnated as a monster then fine. I’d just bring up Tsuki ga and Death March as examples of better series that more people have read that are more likely to be the father of isekai than Mushoku Tensei.

 

[CrimsonNanashi]

Why? Is there a problem including lots of works to a genre? I mean, I don't think they fit for other reasons, but I don't see why there has to be such gatekeeping.

Less gatekeeper and more that diluting the definition this much makes it harder to define what it actually is. Plus I feel like, considering how insane some of both fan bases can get, they’d explode with rage at the idea of then being called isekai. Plus isekai is usually fantasy based stuff with magic while sci-fi is pretty much the exact opposite. It feels weird to call sci-fi a fantasy series just like it’s be weird to call LOTR a sci-fi series

 

[AnotherDuck]

In regards to popularity one has to rely on that to figure out what series could be considered the father of isekai. Would you not agree series that’s not even half as popular as a series that came out before it could never be considered the father of a genre?

I was the first one in this thread to say it wasn't. I said it was inspirational to a lot of stories coming after it, but that's as far as I'd go. Most of the other series you compared with are equally far from being "the father of isekai". I could see an argument for Familiar of Zero, if you're talking about modern isekai.

Less gatekeeper and more that diluting the definition this much makes it harder to define what it actually is. Plus I feel like, considering how insane some of both fan bases can get, they’d explode with rage at the idea of then being called isekai. Plus isekai is usually fantasy based stuff with magic while sci-fi is pretty much the exact opposite. It feels weird to call sci-fi a fantasy series just like it’s be weird to call LOTR a sci-fi series

That's what gatekeeping is. It's the same as with roguelikes. It's trying to police what gets to be categorised under the label. Let the fanbases explode. That's on them.

Isekai is generally fantasy rather than sci-fi because it's easier to get thrown into a technologically simpler world, but it's not a requirement for the genre any way I see it.

Star Wars original trilogy is fantasy. Sci-fi and fantasy aren't opposites, and they can very easily coexist. I could make more of an argument here, but it's getting a bit sidetracked.

 

[rinogp]

thank for the chapter

 

[SilverSun]

Idk but I'm cheering for the childhood friend

 

[Seraphus]

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!!!
You love to see it.
Thank the gods of manga for some actually  good writing! This is really moving along nicely; I hope to see a frontliner with the dual sword, mid/sweep magic swordsman, and a reargiard with BlackMage Skillz just wading through their next great apocalypse.

 

[Opor97]

Would have been better if she just died

 

[FrigusAvis]

I like the girlfriend more than the MC

 

[GreenScheme]

I have a few thoughts on this chapter.

1. Honestly I don't think she can ever truly redeem herself for how she treated the MC, like has been said she specifically only realised that she was wrong post his supposed death.

2. She had a sword against the Son's neck to the point of drawing blood, the assassin move was incredibly stupid cause she should (not could) have killed him the second the glass broke. Especially when you consider the dodge action she took, for that matter it's amazing the assassins didn't kill the hostage either.

3. I don't understand how the PM's son thinks its any different to force a woman with the rapey time and imprisoning her and forcing her over time (Probably with some kind of brainwashing) to rape her?!?

4. The WN has the polygamy, harem tags so careful on that going forward. I've had a a bad feeling they'll reunited the toxic ex as a harem member .

5. No guards (or a maid) watching over the hostages room and is unlocked? For pretty competent schemers they really screwed the pooch on that and I find that very hard to believe.

6. They are really trying their best to show the childhood friend is repenting but what she did would permenently scar a persons mental health, which is another point of annoyance for this series cause the MC seems pretty fine after he leaves.

Unpopular take but Honestly I'm on the side rooting for childhood to get back together since while she did do bad & toxic things, she was unaware of it and has started to grow and repent showing that it isn't some irredeemable quality about her and the main thing is that MC also is partly responsible as he doesn't seem to have tried communicating his issues with her & trying to fix/make the relationship work and chose to instead run away from it all instead of having faith in her, even though he knows that she wasn't always like this and that her as of chp 1 personality was warped from the environment
Again, its not like I'm saying childhood was innocent & it was all MC's fault, but it's enough of a grey area between the 2 of them that I don't think childhood should be getting all the blame, & being branded as some irredeemable trash. & as personal taste, the history & experiences they've shared should at least be worth trying to fix rather than abandoning it all without a fight.
There's definitely many other considerations but it'd be too long to discuss em for not much value those discussions'd bring

 

[lordb1]

She was way too self-absorbed that she couldn't realize how horrible she was to him, even after he broke up with her she still couldn't get that she was FAR in the wrong. It took her thinking he's dead before it finally clicked, so no she's still a damn "bimbo brain" but she's showing that she can at least grow. Now she just need to get that yandere thinking out of her system and I wouldn't complain if she meet him again but I don't think I'll like her getting back with him. Until then, I'm hoping his relationship with Noelia improves.

She realized her wrongdoing before she thought Fin had died and she has never acted like a Yandere.