Ad Astra - Scipio and Hannibal - Vol. 8 Ch. 47 - Pike vs Sling
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Africans are not all black 
... and that was even more prevalent in the times when this happened. Numidians were basically the ancestors of the current Berbers, and they are as white as most Southern Europeans ( for a example, Zinedine Zidane is a Berber )
... and that was even more prevalent in the times when this happened. Numidians were basically the ancestors of the current Berbers, and they are as white as most Southern Europeans ( for a example, Zinedine Zidane is a Berber )
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The numidian's ethnicity would be arab, not what you can qualify as black or brown of skin. Numidia would be populated by different berber tribes and ruled by a king. Numidia literally means "nomads", which is why they are so proeficient with their horses. Numidians could be described as mediterranean people.
@exogriz
Not in this time period. Observe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy_of_Mauretania
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The entirety of the Mediterranean at this time was made up of majority Greek and Phoenician colonies in addition to whoever was living there before the colonies arrived. Point being, these regions were Greek and Pheonician majority regions at this time. Key word being 'majority' not 'minority did not exist' etc. Even back then, large portions of the populations were nomadic sheep herders.
This whole group of ethnicity, including minority dark skinned ethnicities. Later this would change of course, but it's very hard to find data or anyone who cares because. . . . . .
Later on in history, these predominately Greek and Pheonician colonies were conquered by the Arab Muslims and were collectively grouped in ethnicity as "Berber". A politically charged term that is basically a [LET'S NOT GO THERE shall we?]
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This blatant power grab by the Arab Muslims of course, had repercussions that have led to the Arabs, Muslims and Berbers fighting a civil war that continues to this day. The Berbers of North Africa never forgave the Muslims and Arabs for taking over their territories and always felt insulted and left out so everything is a mess.
In Morroco, this sentiment is particularly strong and is strongly linked to Berberism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberism
*Edit: Correcting grammer. 3/13/19
Not in this time period. Observe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy_of_Mauretania
------------------------------
The entirety of the Mediterranean at this time was made up of majority Greek and Phoenician colonies in addition to whoever was living there before the colonies arrived. Point being, these regions were Greek and Pheonician majority regions at this time. Key word being 'majority' not 'minority did not exist' etc. Even back then, large portions of the populations were nomadic sheep herders.
This whole group of ethnicity, including minority dark skinned ethnicities. Later this would change of course, but it's very hard to find data or anyone who cares because. . . . . .
Later on in history, these predominately Greek and Pheonician colonies were conquered by the Arab Muslims and were collectively grouped in ethnicity as "Berber". A politically charged term that is basically a [LET'S NOT GO THERE shall we?]
----------------------
-------------
-----
This blatant power grab by the Arab Muslims of course, had repercussions that have led to the Arabs, Muslims and Berbers fighting a civil war that continues to this day. The Berbers of North Africa never forgave the Muslims and Arabs for taking over their territories and always felt insulted and left out so everything is a mess.
In Morroco, this sentiment is particularly strong and is strongly linked to Berberism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberism
*Edit: Correcting grammer. 3/13/19
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Baited and outsmarted.
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@rrolo1
@crazybars
@nanze
wrong, you cant use the example of today African and compare it to the past African. Especially Zinedine Zidane. Do you think in the span of times between the ancient era and the modern era, there was no influence that affect the populace ? let's say, Vandal migration, Roman conquest, Arabs expansion, European colonialism, etc etc.
if you look at Turkish today and the past, they're of completely different people appearances sake. Originally, The Turks came from Asia as nomads, and conquered the area of today's Turkey. And as many conquerors did, they intermingle with the locals and slaves. Thus you cannot 100% compare it, as many factors could affect it. (btw, Vandals are white Germanic tribes who settled in the North African region)
if you look at Turkish today and the past, they're of completely different people appearances sake. Originally, The Turks came from Asia as nomads, and conquered the area of today's Turkey. And as many conquerors did, they intermingle with the locals and slaves. Thus you cannot 100% compare it, as many factors could affect it. (btw, Vandals are white Germanic tribes who settled in the North African region)
wikipedia... oh well... here we go...
"The entirety of the Mediterranean at this time was made up of majority Greek and Phoenician colonies"
- what do you think the Phoenician was ? white like Greek ? the Phoenician originally came from the Levant. and the people of the Levant, was brown since ancient times (not limited to Arabs), before the arrival of Greek influence because of Alexander's conquest. and even then, like many conqueror, the Greek only consist of the ruling elite of the government, like in Egypt. thus, the main population still consist of mostly local people (of which of course intermingle with the Greeks)
- The main concern i have was the Numidian, not the Phoenician. But what do we know of these two civilization ?
> Phoenicia is an ancient Greek term for the purple colored dye produced by the city states of Canaanite port towns. The Canaan was a region of Semitic-speaking people in 'ancient Near East' of the modern area of Jordan. Today, genetic studies indicate that Jews, Levantine Arabs, Assyrians/Syriacs, Samaritans, Maronites, Druze, Mandaeans, and Mhallami, all have a common Near Eastern heritage which can be genetically mapped back to the ancient Fertile Crescent (crescent shaped fertile area in the middle-east). The Phoenician/ Canaan founded colonies in many places in the Mediterranean, such as Carthage. Their government is much like the Greek at the time, a city states, and they are a Thalassocracy, an empire at sea (through trade power).
> Numidia is an ancient kingdom located in the north of Africa. The kingdom consists of two tribes, Masaesyli and Massylii. The term 'Numidia' is a modern word for the Latin term for nomads that the greek used to describe the people living there.
Now, if we look at your words, that these area was populated by Greeks and Phoenician cities, we know that Greeks are white colored, while the Phoenician, being semitic, should be brown-ish. But the Phoenician, being a Thalassocracy, meaning they mostly only settle near the water. And the Numidian being a Nomadic people and a kingdom of their own, cannot be categorized as one and the same entity, as they're of two distinct political entity.
Now the question is, when i said "i think the author is oblivious to the fact that numidians are african, either brown/black..."
which part is inaccurate ? or according to some childish comment by @RequiemForAMeme, what i said was a bait ? and that you outsmarted me ? i honestly dont get it how does it sound like a bait... and how is it a competition ? it was an honest remark about the content of the manga, regarding the Numidian skin color
1st, im talking about the Numidians, not the Phoenician.
2nd, i called them African for being native nomads to the North Africa region, or should i call them Greeks/Semite since according to you the majority of the place is either Greek colonies or Phoenician colonies ?
3rd, The native African there are dark colored, not to be confused by how they are mixed with dark and light brown-ish of Semite from the middle east that rose from the trade influence of city states like Carthage and Greek Polis in the area.
also about the Muslim expansion into North Africa,
let's not go to there shall we ? it's gonna be a loooong argument which gonna go off against the initial concern that i had with the manga. but long story short: if you like history like i do, you'd know that the Ummayad Caliphate was formed after the coup d'état of Muawiyah ibn Abu Sufyan against Ali ibn Abu Talib. This Muawiyah, he converted to Islam 'only after' they lost the war that they started against the Muslim of Madinah (The Quraysh of Mecca was losing profit of trade due to the growing influence of the Muslim in Madina, and they broke the peace treaty between them and waged war). So after Mecca was occupied by the Muslim, Muawiyah converted (some people think it was a political move to avoid losing his influence further) and as soon as there's a chance, he staged a coup and took over the power and proclaimed himself King/Sultan, of which it is against the belief of Islam of there is only one King, which is God. Muawiyah, was the son of Abu Sufyan, one of the leader of the Quraysh Arab tribe from a longstanding dynasty. Now you see, if you use logic, you'd know that a man who was born into a powerful family who suddenly got dethroned would do anything to get it back, and would do more to expand his power. He was an ambitious man hungry for power since he was born into a privileged family. The rest, you can think by yourself.
Speaking of Morocco,
1st, if you say that they have strong sentiment against Islam, i find it rather hard to believe. But, if you say they're against the Arabs of that time, i wouldn't know. And if you say they're against the policy set by the Arabs of combining them together into one entity called Berber, i also wouldn't know, since im not African, and not well versed in the political nature of the Berberism.
2nd, during the last days of Ummayad Caliphate, the people you called 'berbers' had taken control over the region (Almoravids and Almohad was of berber origins) and they even went their way to support the already weakened Ummayad-Andalusian Caliphate from crumbling. By your logic, if they hate the Muslim Arabs because they took their lands, why in the world would they support the Ummayad-Andalusian Caliphate from falling to the Visigothic-Iberian Christian Kingdoms ?
3rd, many years have passed since those times. Im pretty sure, there are many factors that affected those so-called 'sentiment' if they trully exists. I wouldn't say that they're entirely dont exist, but i would say that many can alter the reason behind it.
4th, Sometimes it is hard to figure out which is the truth or which isn't because 'history is made by the victor', have you heard of that phrase ? and i'm pretty sure it wasn't the Arabs who colonized the North Africa but the French. Another example, one of the problem in Middle East was because after the world war, the victor divide the land not based on the ethnicity of the people living there, but by whatever please them, thus the weird border of today's Middle East where you can find some Turks living beyond the border of Turkey, or where the Kurds are not given the land of which was their ancestors' thus these so called sentiment arise and conflict soon followed that led to civil war. You can find this everywhere to be honest. Fun fact, Salah ad-Din (Saladin) was of Kurds origin.
"The entirety of the Mediterranean at this time was made up of majority Greek and Phoenician colonies"
- what do you think the Phoenician was ? white like Greek ? the Phoenician originally came from the Levant. and the people of the Levant, was brown since ancient times (not limited to Arabs), before the arrival of Greek influence because of Alexander's conquest. and even then, like many conqueror, the Greek only consist of the ruling elite of the government, like in Egypt. thus, the main population still consist of mostly local people (of which of course intermingle with the Greeks)
- The main concern i have was the Numidian, not the Phoenician. But what do we know of these two civilization ?
> Phoenicia is an ancient Greek term for the purple colored dye produced by the city states of Canaanite port towns. The Canaan was a region of Semitic-speaking people in 'ancient Near East' of the modern area of Jordan. Today, genetic studies indicate that Jews, Levantine Arabs, Assyrians/Syriacs, Samaritans, Maronites, Druze, Mandaeans, and Mhallami, all have a common Near Eastern heritage which can be genetically mapped back to the ancient Fertile Crescent (crescent shaped fertile area in the middle-east). The Phoenician/ Canaan founded colonies in many places in the Mediterranean, such as Carthage. Their government is much like the Greek at the time, a city states, and they are a Thalassocracy, an empire at sea (through trade power).
> Numidia is an ancient kingdom located in the north of Africa. The kingdom consists of two tribes, Masaesyli and Massylii. The term 'Numidia' is a modern word for the Latin term for nomads that the greek used to describe the people living there.
Now, if we look at your words, that these area was populated by Greeks and Phoenician cities, we know that Greeks are white colored, while the Phoenician, being semitic, should be brown-ish. But the Phoenician, being a Thalassocracy, meaning they mostly only settle near the water. And the Numidian being a Nomadic people and a kingdom of their own, cannot be categorized as one and the same entity, as they're of two distinct political entity.
Now the question is, when i said "i think the author is oblivious to the fact that numidians are african, either brown/black..."
which part is inaccurate ? or according to some childish comment by @RequiemForAMeme, what i said was a bait ? and that you outsmarted me ? i honestly dont get it how does it sound like a bait... and how is it a competition ? it was an honest remark about the content of the manga, regarding the Numidian skin color
1st, im talking about the Numidians, not the Phoenician.
2nd, i called them African for being native nomads to the North Africa region, or should i call them Greeks/Semite since according to you the majority of the place is either Greek colonies or Phoenician colonies ?
3rd, The native African there are dark colored, not to be confused by how they are mixed with dark and light brown-ish of Semite from the middle east that rose from the trade influence of city states like Carthage and Greek Polis in the area.
also about the Muslim expansion into North Africa,
let's not go to there shall we ? it's gonna be a loooong argument which gonna go off against the initial concern that i had with the manga. but long story short: if you like history like i do, you'd know that the Ummayad Caliphate was formed after the coup d'état of Muawiyah ibn Abu Sufyan against Ali ibn Abu Talib. This Muawiyah, he converted to Islam 'only after' they lost the war that they started against the Muslim of Madinah (The Quraysh of Mecca was losing profit of trade due to the growing influence of the Muslim in Madina, and they broke the peace treaty between them and waged war). So after Mecca was occupied by the Muslim, Muawiyah converted (some people think it was a political move to avoid losing his influence further) and as soon as there's a chance, he staged a coup and took over the power and proclaimed himself King/Sultan, of which it is against the belief of Islam of there is only one King, which is God. Muawiyah, was the son of Abu Sufyan, one of the leader of the Quraysh Arab tribe from a longstanding dynasty. Now you see, if you use logic, you'd know that a man who was born into a powerful family who suddenly got dethroned would do anything to get it back, and would do more to expand his power. He was an ambitious man hungry for power since he was born into a privileged family. The rest, you can think by yourself.
Speaking of Morocco,
1st, if you say that they have strong sentiment against Islam, i find it rather hard to believe. But, if you say they're against the Arabs of that time, i wouldn't know. And if you say they're against the policy set by the Arabs of combining them together into one entity called Berber, i also wouldn't know, since im not African, and not well versed in the political nature of the Berberism.
2nd, during the last days of Ummayad Caliphate, the people you called 'berbers' had taken control over the region (Almoravids and Almohad was of berber origins) and they even went their way to support the already weakened Ummayad-Andalusian Caliphate from crumbling. By your logic, if they hate the Muslim Arabs because they took their lands, why in the world would they support the Ummayad-Andalusian Caliphate from falling to the Visigothic-Iberian Christian Kingdoms ?
3rd, many years have passed since those times. Im pretty sure, there are many factors that affected those so-called 'sentiment' if they trully exists. I wouldn't say that they're entirely dont exist, but i would say that many can alter the reason behind it.
4th, Sometimes it is hard to figure out which is the truth or which isn't because 'history is made by the victor', have you heard of that phrase ? and i'm pretty sure it wasn't the Arabs who colonized the North Africa but the French. Another example, one of the problem in Middle East was because after the world war, the victor divide the land not based on the ethnicity of the people living there, but by whatever please them, thus the weird border of today's Middle East where you can find some Turks living beyond the border of Turkey, or where the Kurds are not given the land of which was their ancestors' thus these so called sentiment arise and conflict soon followed that led to civil war. You can find this everywhere to be honest. Fun fact, Salah ad-Din (Saladin) was of Kurds origin.
@nanze
the Phoenician who settled in the North Region of Africa, was of semitic-people. and genetically speaking, the Levant-Arabs are of semitic descents. Well, you couldn't say that the Numidian are Arabs, but i would say that the North African people at that time are already consists of mixed color of Black, Light Brown, Dark Brown, and White.
@exogriz
Yeah, that's the politicized part. The written record was not so great at this time, in part because orally spoken history was in full swing and not enough literate people cared to write down their history or more importantly, write the truth etc. I didn't want to highlight a particular groups view on this uncertain period of history.
Were the Numidians first? Or were the Greeks and Pheonicians? Or were the Numidians a proto-Berber people, or were they descendants from Bronze age colonies from the eras of the Egypt, Hittites, Assyrians, Kush? Or. . . . . how about none of the above?
I honestly can't tell you for certain which claim is true. It was already a political issue before the Muslim Arabs came, and when the Muslim Arabs came, the issue was politicized on another layer in that now EUROPE and the Muslim Arabs were flinging absurd claims out, in no small part because the Muslim Arabs had conquered what had been a Christianized North Africa and each side had a political reason for their claims. (Byzantine Empire Christian Schism caused this, long story)
Yeah, that's the politicized part. The written record was not so great at this time, in part because orally spoken history was in full swing and not enough literate people cared to write down their history or more importantly, write the truth etc. I didn't want to highlight a particular groups view on this uncertain period of history.
Were the Numidians first? Or were the Greeks and Pheonicians? Or were the Numidians a proto-Berber people, or were they descendants from Bronze age colonies from the eras of the Egypt, Hittites, Assyrians, Kush? Or. . . . . how about none of the above?
I honestly can't tell you for certain which claim is true. It was already a political issue before the Muslim Arabs came, and when the Muslim Arabs came, the issue was politicized on another layer in that now EUROPE and the Muslim Arabs were flinging absurd claims out, in no small part because the Muslim Arabs had conquered what had been a Christianized North Africa and each side had a political reason for their claims. (Byzantine Empire Christian Schism caused this, long story)
@exogriz
Well. actually you somewhat can, because you can have , with some degree of certainty, to know which populations are in a certain area via measuring of genetic mutations of certain genes. Sure, there is always intermingling and whatever, but it is actually quite easy to pinpoint when large groups of people of certain etnicity came to a territory.
On the subject in mind, a good marker ( but not the only ) would be falciform anemia, a genetic blood disease that is endemic to tropical Africa ( where it actually is helpful, because it gives some resistance to malaria ) and that is a really good indicator of Subsaharian groups having been in a area even if they are no longer discernible as a separate ethnic group ( for a example, it served to prove that, like historical records suggested ( and to the displease of some ) that there had been a significant number of Subsaharan populations moved to Portugal around the XVI century, in spite of the intermixing made them to melt into the general population ) .
If you go to see the percentages of mutations on the Med area in general on the people that actually have that gene, the data suggests that the falciform anemia gene bearers for the most part were not in the area until at best a millenia or so ago ... while that gene exists in Subsaharian areas for quite a while. Also, the Berber populations in Morroco, Algeria and Tunisia have consistently a far lower % of people with the falciform anemia gene than the rest of the populations of those countries, in fact lower than some European countries. The simplest explanation is that the Berbers are the closest thing of the ancient populations of those areas and that Subsaharan-origin populations came there after the Arab invasions, most likely as slaves ( as it happened in Iraq , for a example from other area of the world ).
Also, may I ask you to heed your own advice? Especially the part of "you cant use the example of today African and compare it to the past African" ? Just because nowadays most of the peoples of Africa are ( in your own words ) "either dark/brown", it does not necessarily follow that it was always that way.
Well. actually you somewhat can, because you can have , with some degree of certainty, to know which populations are in a certain area via measuring of genetic mutations of certain genes. Sure, there is always intermingling and whatever, but it is actually quite easy to pinpoint when large groups of people of certain etnicity came to a territory.
On the subject in mind, a good marker ( but not the only ) would be falciform anemia, a genetic blood disease that is endemic to tropical Africa ( where it actually is helpful, because it gives some resistance to malaria ) and that is a really good indicator of Subsaharian groups having been in a area even if they are no longer discernible as a separate ethnic group ( for a example, it served to prove that, like historical records suggested ( and to the displease of some ) that there had been a significant number of Subsaharan populations moved to Portugal around the XVI century, in spite of the intermixing made them to melt into the general population ) .
If you go to see the percentages of mutations on the Med area in general on the people that actually have that gene, the data suggests that the falciform anemia gene bearers for the most part were not in the area until at best a millenia or so ago ... while that gene exists in Subsaharian areas for quite a while. Also, the Berber populations in Morroco, Algeria and Tunisia have consistently a far lower % of people with the falciform anemia gene than the rest of the populations of those countries, in fact lower than some European countries. The simplest explanation is that the Berbers are the closest thing of the ancient populations of those areas and that Subsaharan-origin populations came there after the Arab invasions, most likely as slaves ( as it happened in Iraq , for a example from other area of the world ).
Also, may I ask you to heed your own advice? Especially the part of "you cant use the example of today African and compare it to the past African" ? Just because nowadays most of the peoples of Africa are ( in your own words ) "either dark/brown", it does not necessarily follow that it was always that way.
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@crazybars @nanze well, I'm always glad to learn.
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I binge read this years ago, then had to wait...
Today, I picked it up again and binge read the newer chapters. Now I'm back to waiting again...
Excellent manga BTW! Thanks for uploading.
Today, I picked it up again and binge read the newer chapters. Now I'm back to waiting again...
Excellent manga BTW! Thanks for uploading.
