Boushoku no Berserk: Ore Dake Level to Iu Gainen o Toppa Suru - Vol. 10 Ch. 51 - Unwanted Returnee.

[MangaDex]

 

[Ruhrpottpatriot]

Finally a good TL. Thanks for the chapter!

 

[meeklee]

Thanks for the TL! I can finally read ch 51 without having a stroke lol

 

[_arxen_]

Hey guys, ik It's been a bit late. But thank you for your patience yet again. Hope you'll love our works and if there happens to be any errors, let me know in the comments (tho i use forum rarely, my frnds will def tell me) And plz can we have a W for fish finger for his amazing tls. (often times i feel worthless as a pr ;( )

 

[Ruhrpottpatriot]

Hey guys, ik It's been a bit late. But thank you for your patience yet again. Hope you'll love our works and if there happens to be any errors, let me know in the comments (tho i use forum rarely, my frnds will def tell me) And plz can we have a W for fish finger for his amazing tls. (often times i feel worthless as a pr ;( )

One nitpicky thing I'd like to point out. For me Japanese honorifics always feel out of place in a translation, especially when there's a viable alternative available. For example, on page 12 you used "Ellis-sama", but you also could have used "Lady Ellis", which in my eyes let's the text flow more natural. Translation, for me at least, is there to bring the intention across, even if the result is not 100% accurate (it never is).
Now I get, this is style preference to some extend and I'm not dropping this if you don't change it, but imho you should at least get my feedback about it, so you can talk about it in your team.

 

[meeklee]

Hey guys, ik It's been a bit late.

A late but good TL is definitely better than an early but bad one, you guys have done a good job

One note: page 4 and 5 are the same page with a slightly different translation on the last bubble (the TL on page 4 reads better to me)

 

[DiscountJoJo]

Oh hey now I know whats actually happening! sweet!

 

[_arxen_]

A late but good TL is definitely better than an early but bad one, you guys have done a good job

One note: page 4 and 5 are the same page with a slightly different translation on the last bubble (the TL on page 4 reads better to me)

its fixed

 

[_arxen_]

i

One nitpicky thing I'd like to point out. For me Japanese honorifics always feel out of place in a translation, especially when there's a viable alternative available. For example, on page 12 you used "Ellis-sama", but you also could have used "Lady Ellis", which in my eyes let's the text flow more natural. Translation, for me at least, is there to bring the intention across, even if the result is not 100% accurate (it never is).
Now I get, this is style preference to some extend and I'm not dropping this if you don't change it, but imho you should at least get my feedback about it, so you can talk about it in your team.

l'll keep tht in mind. thanks for the feedback

 

[ciera]

Thanks

 

[Amariithynar]

l'll keep that in mind. thanks for the feedback

Here's counter-feedback: "-sama" has fairly different cultural and status connotations from "Lady", which really just means "woman of noble birth" and carries no other connotations at all. If they're referring to her as "-sama", leaving the honorific as such properly conveys the original intent, rather than butchering it with shitty localization practices that eschew intent to shoehorn in a different mismatched set of cultural concepts instead.

 

[Grikath]

w00t! Actual english! Who'da thunk it possible!!

 

[Vincentius]

Here's counter-feedback: "-sama" has fairly different cultural and status connotations from "Lady", which really just means "woman of noble birth" and carries no other connotations at all. If they're referring to her as "-sama", leaving the honorific as such properly conveys the original intent, rather than butchering it with shitty localization practices that eschew intent to shoehorn in a different mismatched set of cultural concepts instead.

I would second this wholeheartedly. It comes across as disconcertingly formal, for instance, when you have kids referring to each other as "Mr." and "Ms." because the translator decided to try and "translate" "-san/-chan/-kun".

"-sama" can be used to refer to anyone you respect, regardless of their actual societal position, whereas "Lady/Lord" is pretty strictly reserved for nobility.

 

[meeklee]

I would second this wholeheartedly. It comes across as disconcertingly formal, for instance, when you have kids referring to each other as "Mr." and "Ms." because the translator decided to try and "translate" "-san/-chan/-kun".

Agreed, it's super janky when you try to translate things which simply have no equivalent in English, and often even worse when the TL attempts to localise it lol. I've seen some truly awful localisations for -kun and -chan.

 

[Ruhrpottpatriot]

Here's counter-feedback: "-sama" has fairly different cultural and status connotations from "Lady", which really just means "woman of noble birth" and carries no other connotations at all. If they're referring to her as "-sama", leaving the honorific as such properly conveys the original intent, rather than butchering it with shitty localization practices that eschew intent to shoehorn in a different mismatched set of cultural concepts instead.

First: Lady just refers to a woman of social superior status[1]. Using it just for "woman of noble birth", constraints the word too much, to the point of the statement being just wrong.
Second: Even if the word had the meaning you state it has (which it doesn't), it would be fitting for Ellis, since she is the ruler of the country.
Furthermore, for female nobles in a formal direct address it should be "Your Majesty" for the sovereign, "Your Grace" for Dukes, "Your Ladyship" for Marquess' down to Baron's, the first time and subsequently Ma'am. Anybody else, even if they are a Lady, don't get this style, they are addressed as Dame, or Mrs/Ms

Let's take Roxy's family as an example on how to (possibly) translate honorifics. As they are apparently above the other holy knights, we therefore can assume they are equivalent to Dukes. That means, the styles of oral address for Roxy's father would be "Your Grace" the first time and then Sir. In letters it's either "Your Grace" for anyone or "My Lord Duke" for subjects of the Duke.
When announced it would be "His Grace, the Duke (of) Heart" for the father, "Her Grace, Duchess (of) Heart" as courtesy title (notice the missing article) for the mother and "Her Grace, the Duchess (of) Heart" (notice the article), for Roxy when she was the head of the house.
During the time Roxy's father was still alive, Roxy would've been styled "Lady Heart", as she is unmarried and we don't know of any other titles her father possesses. If he has such titles, Roxy would use his next lower title as curtsey title.

So, what's this all about? In Japanese, as you have stated "-sama" is often used as a "catch all" when addressing a person of higher social status. However, in Europan culture (which the work borrows heavily from) this is not necessarily the case. You can use "Lady" and "Lord" when using an indirect address, e.g. "Lady Heart" or "Lord Hausen"/"Lord Barbatos". In direct address you have to check how the relative social status between two people, but also their absolute social status.
I mean, just look at the Wiki pages "Forms of address in the United Kingdom" and "Orders of precedence in the United Kingdom" on how complicated it can get, even today.


So let's look at Chapter 51, shall we?
Page 02: Instead of "Please stay right here Mason-sama" use "Lord Mason, stay right here, please."
Page 12: Instead of "t seems Ellis-sama willl be [...]" use "t seems Lady Ellis will be returning"
Page 19: This is a bit tricky, since Memil's intention is a bit unclear. One could use "Because it's you Master Fate", with varying changes for "Master" (e.g. Maaaster).
Page 21: Another tricky one because Fate refers to his adoptive father with "-sama", which is quite unusual in European culture nowadays. Now, back in the 19th century it was common for relatives to address each other during formal occasions with "Sir" and "Ma'am". In this case I'd probably just drop the -sama alltogether and write it as "It's probably the same case as yours", given how we clearly know who is addressing whomst. Alternatively you could just use "It's probably the same case as yours, Lord Mason", if you want to keep the distant tone between Fate and his adoptive father.

I would second this wholeheartedly. It comes across as disconcertingly formal, for instance, when you have kids referring to each other as "Mr." and "Ms." because the translator decided to try and "translate" "-san/-chan/-kun".

"-sama" can be used to refer to anyone you respect, regardless of their actual societal position, whereas "Lady/Lord" is pretty strictly reserved for nobility.

Agreed, it's super janky when you try to translate things which simply have no equivalent in English, and often even worse when the TL attempts to localise it lol. I've seen some truly awful localisations for -kun and -chan.

It's not only overly formal, it's also (mostly) false. What most people doin't know, because they never came into contact with it, is how overly formal European culture was before the Protests of 1968. It was comparable to levels of politeness that you find in Japan today, if not even more polite. The language has the tools, they are just not widely known.
And yes, I'm purposefully refer only to europe and not "the west", because the US had it different even back then. A good rule of thumb for European culture is that people were addressed by their titles, not some indistinct suffix. This goes as far, that in protocols of that time can find protocols of company meetings without a single name in it, just titles.

As with "-sama" you need to look at the context on how to translate "-kun" and "-chan". Again, in English there is no catch all for these styles of address and the most fitting phrase can change from page to page.

On the danger of making an argument from authority: Tolkien had a hand in the translation of Lord of the Rings into German. He suggested, that German translations not use "Elf" for the elves, because in his eyes the elves were not equal to fairies (which the German word "Elf" describes) and that "Elf" was just loaned from English. The translator Margaret Carroux then used "Elb" instead of Tolkiens suggestion "Alb", because the former is, at least according to Jacob Grimm, the German cognate to elf.
Tolkien even wrote that words like Rivendell be "translate by sense, or retain as seems best," because he knew that, you simply cannot translate everything all the time and that keeping the original author's intent is more important than the accuracy of the translation. That's why he had absolutely no problems with the Swedish version translating "Shelob" (lit: She-Spider) as Honmonstret, meaning "She-Monster" and the German version using "Kranker", which is cognate to cancer, which of course has absolutely nothing to do with spiders.
Basically he said: Be as close as possible, unless you encounter something hard or untranslatable, then go by the authors intent.




tl;dr: I'm not saying that translating Japanese honorifics is easy, because it's not. I'm saying: There are possibilities for (nearly) everything.



Sources:
1: Lady - Merriam-Webster

 

[KiraEllion]

From now on Translate it as Lady Roxy Sama this is clearly what everyone wants.

 

[Diondpr]

From now on Translate it as Lady Roxy Sama this is clearly what everyone wants.

Mr. Roxy, yea?

 

[Meathir]

I don’t usually comment for thanks, but given all the drama, I figured I should show love. Idk what is happening behind the scenes (tbh don’t really care either), but I do care about TL quality. o7

 

[Diondpr]

First: Lady just refers to a woman of social superior status[1]. Using it just for "woman of noble birth", constraints the word too much, to the point of the statement being just wrong.
Second: Even if the word had the meaning you state it has (which it doesn't), it would be fitting for Ellis, since she is the ruler of the country.
Furthermore, for female nobles in a formal direct address it should be "Your Majesty" for the sovereign, "Your Grace" for Dukes, "Your Ladyship" for Marquess' down to Baron's, the first time and subsequently Ma'am. Anybody else, even if they are a Lady, don't get this style, they are addressed as Dame, or Mrs/Ms

Let's take Roxy's family as an example on how to (possibly) translate honorifics. As they are apparently above the other holy knights, we therefore can assume they are equivalent to Dukes. That means, the styles of oral address for Roxy's father would be "Your Grace" the first time and then Sir. In letters it's either "Your Grace" for anyone or "My Lord Duke" for subjects of the Duke.
When announced it would be "His Grace, the Duke (of) Heart" for the father, "Her Grace, Duchess (of) Heart" as courtesy title (notice the missing article) for the mother and "Her Grace, the Duchess (of) Heart" (notice the article), for Roxy when she was the head of the house.
During the time Roxy's father was still alive, Roxy would've been styled "Lady Heart", as she is unmarried and we don't know of any other titles her father possesses. If he has such titles, Roxy would use his next lower title as curtsey title.

So, what's this all about? In Japanese, as you have stated "-sama" is often used as a "catch all" when addressing a person of higher social status. However, in Europan culture (which the work borrows heavily from) this is not necessarily the case. You can use "Lady" and "Lord" when using an indirect address, e.g. "Lady Heart" or "Lord Hausen"/"Lord Barbatos". In direct address you have to check how the relative social status between two people, but also their absolute social status.
I mean, just look at the Wiki pages "Forms of address in the United Kingdom" and "Orders of precedence in the United Kingdom" on how complicated it can get, even today.


So let's look at Chapter 51, shall we?
Page 02: Instead of "Please stay right here Mason-sama" use "Lord Mason, stay right here, please."
Page 12: Instead of "t seems Ellis-sama willl be [...]" use "t seems Lady Ellis will be returning"
Page 19: This is a bit tricky, since Memil's intention is a bit unclear. One could use "Because it's you Master Fate", with varying changes for "Master" (e.g. Maaaster).
Page 21: Another tricky one because Fate refers to his adoptive father with "-sama", which is quite unusual in European culture nowadays. Now, back in the 19th century it was common for relatives to address each other during formal occasions with "Sir" and "Ma'am". In this case I'd probably just drop the -sama alltogether and write it as "It's probably the same case as yours", given how we clearly know who is addressing whomst. Alternatively you could just use "It's probably the same case as yours, Lord Mason", if you want to keep the distant tone between Fate and his adoptive father.



It's not only overly formal, it's also (mostly) false. What most people doin't know, because they never came into contact with it, is how overly formal European culture was before the Protests of 1968. It was comparable to levels of politeness that you find in Japan today, if not even more polite. The language has the tools, they are just not widely known.
And yes, I'm purposefully refer only to europe and not "the west", because the US had it different even back then. A good rule of thumb for European culture is that people were addressed by their titles, not some indistinct suffix. This goes as far, that in protocols of that time can find protocols of company meetings without a single name in it, just titles.

As with "-sama" you need to look at the context on how to translate "-kun" and "-chan". Again, in English there is no catch all for these styles of address and the most fitting phrase can change from page to page.

On the danger of making an argument from authority: Tolkien had a hand in the translation of Lord of the Rings into German. He suggested, that German translations not use "Elf" for the elves, because in his eyes the elves were not equal to fairies (which the German word "Elf" describes) and that "Elf" was just loaned from English. The translator Margaret Carroux then used "Elb" instead of Tolkiens suggestion "Alb", because the former is, at least according to Jacob Grimm, the German cognate to elf.
Tolkien even wrote that words like Rivendell be "translate by sense, or retain as seems best," because he knew that, you simply cannot translate everything all the time and that keeping the original author's intent is more important than the accuracy of the translation. That's why he had absolutely no problems with the Swedish version translating "Shelob" (lit: She-Spider) as Honmonstret, meaning "She-Monster" and the German version using "Kranker", which is cognate to cancer, which of course has absolutely nothing to do with spiders.
Basically he said: Be as close as possible, unless you encounter something hard or untranslatable, then go by the authors intent.




tl;dr: I'm not saying that translating Japanese honorifics is easy, because it's not. I'm saying: There are possibilities for (nearly) everything.



Sources:
1: Lady - Merriam-Webster

tl;dr: translation suck, language suck, universal language let's goo, the quality is great, give me more information
TIL, localization suck, globalization suck, conquer the universe time

 

[meeklee]

First: Lady just refers to a woman of social superior status[1]. Using it just for "woman of noble birth", constraints the word too much, to the point of the statement being just wrong.
Second: Even if the word had the meaning you state it has (which it doesn't), it would be fitting for Ellis, since she is the ruler of the country.
Furthermore, for female nobles in a formal direct address it should be "Your Majesty" for the sovereign, "Your Grace" for Dukes, "Your Ladyship" for Marquess' down to Baron's, the first time and subsequently Ma'am. Anybody else, even if they are a Lady, don't get this style, they are addressed as Dame, or Mrs/Ms

Let's take Roxy's family as an example on how to (possibly) translate honorifics. As they are apparently above the other holy knights, we therefore can assume they are equivalent to Dukes. That means, the styles of oral address for Roxy's father would be "Your Grace" the first time and then Sir. In letters it's either "Your Grace" for anyone or "My Lord Duke" for subjects of the Duke.
When announced it would be "His Grace, the Duke (of) Heart" for the father, "Her Grace, Duchess (of) Heart" as courtesy title (notice the missing article) for the mother and "Her Grace, the Duchess (of) Heart" (notice the article), for Roxy when she was the head of the house.
During the time Roxy's father was still alive, Roxy would've been styled "Lady Heart", as she is unmarried and we don't know of any other titles her father possesses. If he has such titles, Roxy would use his next lower title as curtsey title.

So, what's this all about? In Japanese, as you have stated "-sama" is often used as a "catch all" when addressing a person of higher social status. However, in Europan culture (which the work borrows heavily from) this is not necessarily the case. You can use "Lady" and "Lord" when using an indirect address, e.g. "Lady Heart" or "Lord Hausen"/"Lord Barbatos". In direct address you have to check how the relative social status between two people, but also their absolute social status.
I mean, just look at the Wiki pages "Forms of address in the United Kingdom" and "Orders of precedence in the United Kingdom" on how complicated it can get, even today.


So let's look at Chapter 51, shall we?
Page 02: Instead of "Please stay right here Mason-sama" use "Lord Mason, stay right here, please."
Page 12: Instead of "t seems Ellis-sama willl be [...]" use "t seems Lady Ellis will be returning"
Page 19: This is a bit tricky, since Memil's intention is a bit unclear. One could use "Because it's you Master Fate", with varying changes for "Master" (e.g. Maaaster).
Page 21: Another tricky one because Fate refers to his adoptive father with "-sama", which is quite unusual in European culture nowadays. Now, back in the 19th century it was common for relatives to address each other during formal occasions with "Sir" and "Ma'am". In this case I'd probably just drop the -sama alltogether and write it as "It's probably the same case as yours", given how we clearly know who is addressing whomst. Alternatively you could just use "It's probably the same case as yours, Lord Mason", if you want to keep the distant tone between Fate and his adoptive father.



It's not only overly formal, it's also (mostly) false. What most people doin't know, because they never came into contact with it, is how overly formal European culture was before the Protests of 1968. It was comparable to levels of politeness that you find in Japan today, if not even more polite. The language has the tools, they are just not widely known.
And yes, I'm purposefully refer only to europe and not "the west", because the US had it different even back then. A good rule of thumb for European culture is that people were addressed by their titles, not some indistinct suffix. This goes as far, that in protocols of that time can find protocols of company meetings without a single name in it, just titles.

As with "-sama" you need to look at the context on how to translate "-kun" and "-chan". Again, in English there is no catch all for these styles of address and the most fitting phrase can change from page to page.

On the danger of making an argument from authority: Tolkien had a hand in the translation of Lord of the Rings into German. He suggested, that German translations not use "Elf" for the elves, because in his eyes the elves were not equal to fairies (which the German word "Elf" describes) and that "Elf" was just loaned from English. The translator Margaret Carroux then used "Elb" instead of Tolkiens suggestion "Alb", because the former is, at least according to Jacob Grimm, the German cognate to elf.
Tolkien even wrote that words like Rivendell be "translate by sense, or retain as seems best," because he knew that, you simply cannot translate everything all the time and that keeping the original author's intent is more important than the accuracy of the translation. That's why he had absolutely no problems with the Swedish version translating "Shelob" (lit: She-Spider) as Honmonstret, meaning "She-Monster" and the German version using "Kranker", which is cognate to cancer, which of course has absolutely nothing to do with spiders.
Basically he said: Be as close as possible, unless you encounter something hard or untranslatable, then go by the authors intent.




tl;dr: I'm not saying that translating Japanese honorifics is easy, because it's not. I'm saying: There are possibilities for (nearly) everything.



Sources:
1: Lady - Merriam-Webster

What you're failing to take into account is how well amateur translators, many of whom are not native English speakers, will localise something with so much nuance. I have never once seen honorifics translated in a way that didn't feel jarring to some extent, and would rather they not be translated at all if that is the case.

I also don't really see how Tolkien's opinions on the translations of names in his own works are particularly relevant here. It's ultimately a subjective decision in this case, and many people (myself included) feel that manga typically reads better with certain parts left untranslated.