Concerning the US Protests and Our Rules

[Lymus]

test

 

[Afiaki]

violent reaction

 

[Zephyrus]

@Schlo
It never fails to surprise me when people claim they are being "unjustly persecuted" or "silenced" on MD when they are simply being punished for failing to follow the rules. If you don't follow our rules, your comment gets moderated in addition to punishment if needed. It's that simple. If your political beliefs break the rules, then don't post about them.

I have a very strong dislike of trolls and people who believe that posting racial slurs, a callous disregard for human life, and /pol/ memes are acceptable discourse on MD. It's not and it never will be. The best advice I can give those people is to find a place to post where those things are acceptable. Otherwise, I will continue to find pleasure in reminding people that those views aren't accepted outside certain corners of the internet.

In general, this thread has been pretty calm and not on fire like some people seem to be. Once the usual bad actors were removed, we've had a fairly lively and civil conversation. This is how discussion is supposed to be on MD, even if it gets a bit heated at times. I appreciate people like @Tamerlane injecting calm wherever they post.

 

[yuz79336]

@Plykiya I'm asking about the criteria that the funds use, not the one that the court uses. I've looked at a few of their websites, but they aren't very specific. They mostly seem concerned about the constitutionality of the bail system in general. It makes sense that bail would be denied for accused killers, but I don't know if that's true 100% of the time and it doesn't answer the question for those accused of vandalism, assault, etc. Obviously they are presumed innocent, but I think crowdfunding for their release is still a controversial position.

 

[Halo]

David Dorn was killed in St. Louis, Missouri. As of now, St. Louis doesn't have a bail fund in OP's link.

Also

in most states, a judge can deny bail if there’s strong evidence that the defendant committed a “capital” offense. Capital offenses are crimes for which the death penalty is possible—first degree murder being the most common example. Missouri law provides another example: A Missouri state court judge can deny bail to a defendant who “poses a danger” to a crime victim, the community, or any other person. lawyers.com

So, it's unlikely that there's going to be a bail in this particular case.

 

[Traze]

@Plykiya It's already been confirmed that arsonists are among those being released through bail. Stop pretending these bailfunds are for any sort of "good" cause.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/scores-bar-mpls-riot-rebuild
If you actually want your money to help someone in need, a black firefighter spent his life savings on making a new bar only for rioters to torch it to the ground. Help him rebuild instead of funding destroyers.

 

[Plykiya]

@yuz79336 All bail funds definitely aren't equal, but the few I'm aware of in my state at the moment are covering trespassing, unlawful assembly, disorderly conduct, and curfew violations. Their forms cover all kinds of charges and descriptions of a person's criminal history that people are required to submit. The bail funds only get their money back when the people who were bailed out attend court, whether or not they'll change how they use the funds in the future is out of my knowledge. I imagine each fund has their own determining factors on whether or not they trust if a certain person will properly attend their court date without breaking any laws in the meantime if they want any chance of being sustainable.

@Traze I'm not going to pretend that everyone bad didn't get set for bail, but the bail funds listed aren't really saying "help us free arsonists and looters". I agree that there's plenty of other things people can be donating to at the moment. Especially to help out store owners

 

[SyberGear]

I just want to read manga in peace, keep your politics out of my escapism, thank you.

 

[Traze]

@Zephyrus "callous disregard for human life" is not against the rules. Laughing at say, the Darwin Awards or at people killing themselves in trying to take a selfie does not make a person bad.

You're supposedly not on a power trip but you're happy to punish people for merely having a different view of humanity's weight, which is not remotely under the rules.

 

[yuz79336]

@Plykiya It's great that the few that you've checked only support those accused of non-violent offences related to peaceful protesting. Assisting in those situations is a fairly mainstream position. The issue I'm raising is that you've linked to a large list of funds that may not all share that standard. You've asserted neutrality, but have suggested support for organizations that may not be so neutral. Like you said, I doubt any of them are explicitly there to support arsonists and looters, but some that I've looked at are against the bail system entirely and would, by that standard, end up paying for their release.

 

[Halo]

Browder was held at the Rikers Island jail complex, without trial, for allegedly stealing a backpack, between 2010 and 2013 when his family was unable to make bail; he was in solitary confinement for two of these years. Two years after his release, Browder died by suicide at his mother's home.

3 years in prison because of accusations of stealing a backpack. Gee I wonder why would these anarchists be against the bail system entirely? Totally unacceptable 😠
I'm so glad they spent around two hundred thousand dollars keeping this CRIMINAL SCUM behind the bars.

 

[Elilla]

@vobo Feel free to pick any organization that fits your view has always been my book. Since I don't live in the US, I only go by whatever case law shakes out and I read about. I seem to remember them working with another org on several civil asset forfeiture cases dealing with low-key drug possession. That's not exactly something that a denominational legal organization would step their toes in, it's not even something that the extremely left-leaning churches/synagogues in the US will stick their toes in. I'll see if I can find the case names when I get later.

 

[yuz79336]

@Halo I didn't see anyone calling the people against the bond system anarchists, so I'm not exactly sure what you're responding to. There are merits to the moral and constitutional challenge to the bail system, but it's not exactly a neutral opinion or a primary concern of the protesters. If you want to fund bail for someone who set a building on fire or stole a TV so that they can go back into the streets and continue their behavior, that's your prerogative, but it's a radical position to take.

 

[Halo]

@yuz79336 I thought we're playing assumptions here? You're assuming how bail funds operate, and I'm assuming your general attitude towards them.
Although TV theft is indeed a very serious crime, would you mind providing sources on that arson bail and the fund that sponsored it you keep talking about?

 

[Tamerlane]

To be fair, how discussion in academia works is quite laissez faire, it just is predicated on that you know what you're talking about and have evidence...Usually.


Granted there are biases in certain fields and academia is prone to its own issues in certain regards. (There are fields that are definitely prone to echochambers, usually in specific niches.) There's also issues in regards to big businesses or lobbying groups funding research in the hopes that it confirms their pre-conceived notions or potentially off-color findings being censored. These are major issues, though they don't discredit academia as a whole.

Really, censorship usually isn't so much of an issue as it is a burden of proof and what's going on isn't quite moderation as we understand it, but more or less verification and a continued process of evaluation, reevaluation, peer-review, and continual back-and-forth. As a Popperian, pretty much agree with it

 

[millenialboomer]

itt: "lets not talk politics guys"
also this thread: "rioting isnt political! everyone should get behind our peaceful riots and if you dont youre part of the problem!"

thats a neat trick.

 

[yuz79336]

@Halo Many of the bail fund websites linked explicitly state that they are against bail as an institution, not only for specific crimes. Through deductive reasoning I can conclude that recipients can include the looters and rioters. Are you claiming that they are lying on their own websites?

Here are a couple examples from clicking on a few of the links:

We provide support for actions that are anti-patriarchal, anti-racist, anti-imperialist & anti-capitalist

Bay Area Anti- Repression Committee Bail Fund

Banner for the IWOC Statewide Bail Fund

I have a hard time believing that these organizations would limit their bond payments to peaceful protesters.

Counter-example:

We do not offer bail for violent offenses, only for those arrested for non-violent offenses

https://www.ywca-br.org/community-bail-fund
Unfortunately, this language is not found in many (if any) of the other links.

 

[LaDeeDah]

@gatordreams16 hard agree

 

[ocsibrm]

Some of y'all make me real glad the Internet wasn't around in the late 1700's.

We'd be seeing the Boston Tea Party and hearing folks be mad about that property destruction and saying stuff like, "Why can't they just talk it out? No need to riot!"

 

[yuz79336]

The injustice then was a state-enforced monopoly on a population that had no voting rights to oppose it. The injustice today is police brutality that has been universally denounced by everyone with authority in government with the perpetrator and associates charged with crimes. The population is also able to vote.

These are hardly comparable circumstances.