Both of them still has a lot of uncensored nudity chapters uploaded to the site so whether you go by raws or mangadex uploads still warrants a nudity tag
That was the point: It depends entirely on what raws the groups are using, thus making the difference chapter- or group-specific rather than title-specific which is what we're actually looking for here.
Visible nipples is not a good predictor of the level of fanservice of a work, since neither does their presence guarantee a work is fanservicey nor does their lack guarantee it's not.
If a Nudity tag is meant to signify nothing but nudity regardless of fanservice, it would apply to all Hentai titles and worse yet the Smut tag is its proper subset, making it nearly useless. We don't want to make a tag that entirely covers an already existing tag and then some.
Visible nipples is not a good predictor of the level of fanservice of a work, since neither does their presence guarantee a work is fanservicey nor does their lack guarantee it's not.
It's not? If a series has ecchi tag and has nudity: aka nipples it is %100 fanservice heavy... And the examples of Yuragi-sou no Yuuna-san, Ojousama no Shimobe was to showcase how even if you look at the most extreme examples with many different raws it will get replaced eventually as long as a series has uncensored raws somewhere on the internet... Anyways i have talked too much, i feel like a nudity tag has lots of positives and hardly any negatives, implementing it is also would be easy(mangaupdates has 27000 series that has the combination of ecchi+nudity tags in its database) and i'm off the thread i feel like i keep bringing up same points over and over again so will finish with my original statement:
If "Fairy Tail" and "To Love Ru Darkness" has same content tags, there is a room for improvement there...
So... just wanted to throw in that nudity doesn't always mean stuff is sexualised. https://mangadex.org/title/30728/kuro-no-maou Kuro no maou is categorized as echhi right now, but so far, it should actually be nudity only.
(It's got that tag because there's a pixie flying around naked, but it seems to be a worldbuilding thing.)
Sooo... regardless of the arguments, I'm for some sort of nudity tag in addition to ecchi and smut. Because some people really don't care about nudity, but do care about the sexual stuff. Other way around, some people just want to stare at watermelon-breasts and are disappointed if it's really just some women bathing.
Edit: I take everything back. How come there's nearly no manga that's got nudity and doesn't turn sexual??!
That's not what I was arguing against, I was talking about nudity in and of itself. You're not wrong that if it's used in combination with Ecchi (or notably in Ecchi's absence) the level of fanservice would be more easily discernible. Like I already said though, treating it as a freestanding tag is a problem, because every single Hentai and Smut manga would get the Nudity tag and that's not helpful. We could place some technical rule on it that it shouldn't be used for Hentai and Smut, but we would either have to hardcode an exception to prevent adding it, or rely on people just somehow knowing they shouldn't use it which is definitely not going to work.
That was the point: It depends entirely on what raws the groups are using, thus making the difference chapter- or group-specific rather than title-specific which is what we're actually looking for here.
Slightly out of the purview of content tags but is a requiring separate manga titles for un/de-censored an idea? We do the same of for Fan/Official Coloured and they're more or less the same practices; the using or editing of specific raws. Barring that, the only other way I could see that tag working for such specific cases would be to just indiscriminately tagging it "Explicit" as soon as any group use any version of explicit raws, which would not be ideal and in that case I'd probably be against introducing any "explicit/nudity" tags.
I feel like with the nudity, nipples, and ecchi debate, we need to focus on how MD is a multi-national community with differing values and sensibilities across these borders. That said I am against a nudity tag for a few reasons.
1. At what point do we enforce it? Dragon ball features Goku naked on several occasions as a gag, but its only in a few chapters and hardly fits a theme or genre that needs to be tagged in this instance.
2. Sometimes a character in an american cartoon would have his clothes blasted off in a comical explosion, and then in, say the Australian edit, that entire bit is just removed.
3. The Japanese are extremely desensitized to sex. Series like doraemon, dragon ball, naruto, and in the thousands more thread on showing the full male or female figure minus genitalia.
4. While yes there are a few outliers in ecchi that contain nudity, the vast majority of nudity that you’d consider mature would fall under smut or hentai.
5. According to wikipedia, ecchi is denoted slang term used in place for ’lewd’, ’dirty’, ’naughty’, or ’sexy’. In a sense, it’s porn minus the sex. And in that case, whether nudity or nipples are shown, it’s doing it's job properly by denoting a series as containing potentially lewd content.
Still in discussion in wording and such: - Psychological Abuse
Alternative is interpersonal abuse, but needs some more discussion, people like interpersonal abuse, but think it's a bit too general and don't want it to replace physical abuse and psychological abuse. --> Option to adapt only psychological abuse into interpersonal abuse (even though it's wordy) and keep the physical abuse seperate. Interpersonal abuse would cover domestic violence and such, too.
Suggested, but not quite enough comments about it, but seems like it's fine: - Animal Abuse
- Self Harm
Highly discussed: - Adult, Mature --> Mature tag is wanted, because not everything is covered with demographics apparently
- Nudity, Violence
- Nudity and Partial/Censored Nudity
- Explicit (for Violence and Nudity) Problem: What's the difference between all these tags and don't demographics and the abuse tags above not cover them?
--> Nudity is wanted, to make it obvious how hardcore the ecchi is. It however shouldn't be applied with Smut or Hentai, which makes it problematic. Problem: We need something to differentiate between harmless ecchi and hardcore ecchi. May I propose in this place simply to add the tag "Mild fanservice" for anything that's just got a couple of pages of nudity or something that's not sexual? Or, how @LoneWizzy put it, to make it Type 1. (Regardless, that new tag NEEDS a proper description, because sexual innuendo, sexual humor and some pages of nudity would all need to be accounted for. Also the nipple thing)
Type 1- Implied sexual themes/jokes: Sexual jokes and innuendos accompanied by occasional panty shots. This type of manga uses some lewd topics occasionally but it's main focus is not the fanservice or the ecchi bits are used for jokes(would be something like PG13)
Examples: Seitokai Yakuindomo, Fairy Tail, Kishuku Gakkou no Juliet, Eguchi-kun Doesn't Miss a Thing, Fechippuru, Henjo, Jahy-sama wa Kujikenai!
Type 2- Visually arousing/fanservice: This type goes all out with drawing naked chicks doing naked things, even without any implication of sex it goes pretty hardcore with its content. (would be something like R15)
Examples: To Love Ru Darkness, Saotome Shimai, Kunoichi no Ichi, Isekai Onsen
Type 3- Smut: Nudity is expected like Type 2 but also explicit sexual acts shown or stated openly.(would be something like R18)
Maybe/Want: - Torture tag (which would be covered by Physical Abuse though)
Not enough comments on it: - Sensitive Material
Not in its current form: - Bullying (Suggestion: "Teasing" and "Bullying", or put together simply "Bullying" and based on Genre (Tragedy vs. Comedy)
- Uncensored (missleading name)
No: - Profanity
- Family Friendly
- NSFW
- Sexualised loli/shota
- Mental Illness (possibly as Theme, but not likely)
- Hentai tags because they really should be discussed in another thread
Interpersonal Abuse Interpersonal abuse features long-term violent, mental or otherwise physical or emotional/psychological mistreatment of the victims which may cause them physical or psychological trauma.
There's a clear imbalance of power between the more powerful party as the aggressor and their victim.
Forms of abuse include (but are not limited to) domestic violence, torture and gaslighting.
While we recognize that there are more than just these forms of abuse, this definition is restricted to either physical or psychological abuse for the purposes of this platform.
Do not use this tag for other forms of abuse. For sexual abuse, use the Sexual Violence tag instead. (For child abuse, see the child abuse tag)
Self Harm Description Self-harm is associated with characters who demonstrate behaviours that damage one's body as an unhealthy coping mechanism in response to trauma, stress or depression.
Take note that self destruction without the intent of coping (i.e. activate special powers, mind-controlled without consent to do so, etc) does not count.
(Maybe change "demonstrate" into "show" though)... I want to keep the descriptions as easy as possible.
Explicit
Anything depicting (sexual) full frontal nudity or destruction of the body in clear view.
Not to be used for series that do not have any of these elements, or series that include uncensored vulgar hand gestures or language.
Explizit covers anything depicting (sexual) full frontal nudity or brutal violence in clear view.
Do not use these for series that include uncensored vulgar hand gestures or language.
Description idea from @AbyssalMonkey for the Echhi Dilemma
Smut - story contains themes of sexual intercourse including explicit depiction
Nudity - series contains whatever eventually gets called into as nudity, most probably tits, pussy, dick
Ecchi - whatever ecchi gets defined as, most probably the glorification of sexualization
You could conceivably have a series with any combination of any of these tags.
Smut-Ecchi: Ecchi series with off screen fucking
Nudity-Ecchi: what is To-Love Ru
Nudity-Smut: Check 50% of korean comics. Basically anything that shows the act of sex without the over pandering that ecchi usually incorporates
Alright. That got long. And I'm totally editing this one, because I'm sure I forgot to highlight something. Also, just tag me if I forgot something, I'll add it.
@Vofuro I have to disagree with the definition of smut-ecchi, there are several series with the characters being heavily implied to have or have had sex off screen, but smut would fail to tie itself to to anything within the series. I'd rather describe it as a series where there are suggestive/sexual themes where the discussion or act sex is either plainly visible, but not profound to be called hentai. An example that already has these tags would be https://mangadex.org/title/39471/hazure-skill-kage-ga-usui-o-motsu-guild-shokuin-ga-jitsuha-densetsu-no-ansatsusha , where the heroines are placed in erotic situations, and the discussion and act of sex are prevalent.
As for explicit, since it already covers full frontal nudity in your definition, I don't think that a nudity tag itself should be progressed further, instead just expand explicit to cover the proposed nudity definition as well.
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My personal definition for mature would be: A series that contains at least one content description from the list below that may or may not be tagged for the series itself;
(A list of stuff that clearly needs its own thread to be discussed)
My initial idea was that it'd cover series where they clearly need a trigger warning that didn't fall into the ones decided upon in this thread. And then I figured that some series that don't fit their demographic also may need to have a warning. Shonen and seinen just mean what magazine they're in, not if the content inside is actually sfw or adults only. And as mentioned before, not all series even have been tagged with a demographic, big shout out to all the pixiv doujins.
I'll make the mature tag definition thread in the event we decide to maybe move forward with it when this thread closes
Okay. Frankly, I think this thread has been properly discussing valid content tags. There are some where people are agreeing they like, as well as some descriptions, see my post above.
Some stuff is less clear (the nudity debatte), but I don't see any consensus on that topic any time soon. The main problem is that ecchi is too broad and people don't know what's innocent ecchi and what's more, ahm, lewd and not quite okay to read in public.
An additional tag like "Explicit" or even "Nudity", used exclusively for non-hentai, would possibly solve that issue.
Unless anyone else comments, I'd say this discussion thread has enough suggestions for tags for the devs to consider. Additional comments are obviously welcome, though! Also, totally
shamelessly
tagging @Teasday so this thread isn't forgotten and can be looked at as a (semi-?)final suggestion.
@Vofuro Yeah some of the staff talked about this a while back but I don't think we came to a clear conclusion, not to mention there's been a whole variety of other problems popping up recently so this stuff slipped our minds.
@Vofuro I can see that I made a mistake by not putting a break between my two separate points. I’ve made an edit to show the differentiating points. Sadly though, this does show just how much overlap these tags have, not that that goes against my initial idea that I gunned for, “a one and done blanket for a single point of sensitive content/material in a series”. I definitely need another angle to look at these before I personally make another statement myself.
