@shinratensei16 I mean Ha-min better not go to Class 3, I need him to lose to Ji-tae for story reasons.
Fight Class 3 - Vol. 6 Ch. 43 - Round 43: A Losing Fight
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@Sigilbreaker26 The thing is we, as the audience, know that Maria does BJJ because she told Ji-tae but the other students don't. In fact, a lot of them think she's a striker. Even the female coach seems to think this way. Eun-sol was a tricky opponent since she can take some damage and keep figthing. She went for the takedown during the test because she realized that striking wasn't Maria's forte. What she didn't know is that Maria was a BJJ grappler. She found out the hard way but to the rest of the school Maria's fighting style is still a mystery. That's why her style info box shows nothing. So far, Maria hasn't showcased any bjj moves in the ring because she hasn't been in any situation where she has needed to, other than during her fight with Eun-sol.
@mylastchance89 That's the whole basis of Sigil's complaint. Maria is so far above everyone she doesn't even need to use BJJ despite that being her main style. Even if you accept that no one knows she does BJJ (which I don't cause that requires a whole mess of assumptions), that's not responding to Sigil's complaint.
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Oh man... what did I miss?
Since’s everybody’s butting into (to paraphrase Tae-young) this debate allow me to do the same.
@Amegashi Maria was introduced as “The ice queen of the fight classes” / “Human terminator from Brazil” and was shortly after stated to be “the S1 rank monster claimed to be the strongest since the establishment of Nam-il High Scool’s fight classes”. This description is telling the reader straight away “you should expect her to be OP”. Which is pretty much confirmed during the course of the story with the exception of her running away from the octagon at her time in Class 3. This mere fact leads to the speculation that there are even stronger fighters than Maria.
We know she practices Jiu-jitsu because she offers to teach Ji-tae and turn him into the strongest “jiujiteiro” but everytime we see her fighting she mostly uses kicks and punches. Her beating up Kim Don-wong after Ji-tae’s entrance test and the flashback of her beating up her upperclassmen the previous year are clear examples of this aswell as her two official fights against Young-Woon and Shim Ha-min. The fact that nobody knows her fighting style is not an assumption since the stat boxes shown before the start of the matches have public disclosure information to the students (and readers) on the school's behalf, so Maria's fighting style is indeed a mystery to the rest of the school.
So yeah, while it’s true that @mylastchance89 comment doesn’t answer Sigil’s complain. The main problem with the “complain” itself is that is basically him saying “I don’t like Maria being so OP”, which is totally fine. But, other than stating how he feels about it, he doesn’t point out any inconsistencies within the writing of the story or states the reasoning behind it being a bad thing which makes this whole convo rather meaningless lol.
Other than that it's all cool tho, We're all here to have fun and voicing our opinions is part of that right?
Have a nice day everyone.
Since’s everybody’s butting into (to paraphrase Tae-young) this debate allow me to do the same.
@Amegashi Maria was introduced as “The ice queen of the fight classes” / “Human terminator from Brazil” and was shortly after stated to be “the S1 rank monster claimed to be the strongest since the establishment of Nam-il High Scool’s fight classes”. This description is telling the reader straight away “you should expect her to be OP”. Which is pretty much confirmed during the course of the story with the exception of her running away from the octagon at her time in Class 3. This mere fact leads to the speculation that there are even stronger fighters than Maria.
We know she practices Jiu-jitsu because she offers to teach Ji-tae and turn him into the strongest “jiujiteiro” but everytime we see her fighting she mostly uses kicks and punches. Her beating up Kim Don-wong after Ji-tae’s entrance test and the flashback of her beating up her upperclassmen the previous year are clear examples of this aswell as her two official fights against Young-Woon and Shim Ha-min. The fact that nobody knows her fighting style is not an assumption since the stat boxes shown before the start of the matches have public disclosure information to the students (and readers) on the school's behalf, so Maria's fighting style is indeed a mystery to the rest of the school.
So yeah, while it’s true that @mylastchance89 comment doesn’t answer Sigil’s complain. The main problem with the “complain” itself is that is basically him saying “I don’t like Maria being so OP”, which is totally fine. But, other than stating how he feels about it, he doesn’t point out any inconsistencies within the writing of the story or states the reasoning behind it being a bad thing which makes this whole convo rather meaningless lol.
Other than that it's all cool tho, We're all here to have fun and voicing our opinions is part of that right?
Have a nice day everyone.
@shinratensei16 The problem with your argument that because there's no style in her stat box means no one knows her fighting style assumes that there's no video footage at all of Maria doing Jiu-Jitsu. This would be fine, but clearly Eun-Sol showed that at least one time, she's had to use Jiu-Jitsu moves in a match. There's no video footage of this? The move she did on Eun-Sol is a clear Jiu-Jitsu move, and even I as someone who has never done Jiu-Jitsu and knows only a little is clearly aware of that being a Jiu-Jitsu move. So you mean to tell me that only Eun-Sol has gotten her to do Jiu-Jitsu? And that there is no video footage of her doing that in the ring? And that nobody watched her do that Jiu-Jitsu move on Eun-Sol? There's a heap load of assumptions right there. So even though the story is trying to say that no knows her style, the fact that Maria did a Jiu-Jitsu move on a person in a stadium that is most likely filmed, and most likely had spectators, no one else saw her do that move? That's pretty wild which is why I don't accept that premise. You guys are probably right that the author wants us to believe know one knows her style, but just by showing her do a Jiu-Jitsu move on Eun-Sol, that entire premise collapses. Whether the author was aware of that IDK. Also, she did teach Jiu-Tae armbar, so even if we just say that's a common move in mixed martial arts (is it? I really don't know), that's one other person who potentially knows that Maria does grappling, Kim Don-wong. This could all just be evidence to the rest of the school that Maria knows a lot of stuff, but I highly doubt people don't know she knows Jiu-Jitsu. One more thing, in that flashback, didn't Maria do an arm-bar on one of those 2nd years and break his arm (chapter 20, page 17), and even against the hero dude, (chapter 36, page 17), that looks like some kind of Jiu-Jitsu move right there, and we know for a fact a lot of people were watching that.
I can't speak for Sigil, but in his previous comments I felt he elucidated as to why Maria not having to use BJJ is an issue. What I got from his point was that, this tournament arc spent a lot of time setting up characters just to lose to Maria, and even if we accept Maria is OP, which of course she is, is there really a point in showcasing how she beats up on everyone? We get that she's crazy strong and is winning without any issues, so is there a need to keep showing her? My idea, is that she's trying to show Jiu-tae how he's supposed to fight, which is cool, but like, if she's trying to make him the strongest Jiujiteiro (like she said in chapter 1), wouldn't it be better to teach him how to actually land his Jiu-Jitsu moves in the matches? As of yet all she's doing is teaching him how to strike, but like, what? I thought he was supposed to learn Jiu-Jitsu. I get that punching is important but I mean, isn't submissions a big part of BJJ? IDK man. This also kind of reflects back on my issue of Jiu-tae not getting developed. Has Jiu-tae learned any BJJ moves besides armbar, is that it? BJJ is just armbar, or did I miss some other BJJ moves? I don't even remember man.
I think if you're going to address someone's argument/statement you should just address what they said. I believe you're doing a fine job of actually responding to what people say so its cool, but a lot of people are just talking passed each other instead of at each other so yea. But its not all that important, its all just opinions and its fun to discuss stories, that's the whole point of a forum. Different opinions, so cheers.
I can't speak for Sigil, but in his previous comments I felt he elucidated as to why Maria not having to use BJJ is an issue. What I got from his point was that, this tournament arc spent a lot of time setting up characters just to lose to Maria, and even if we accept Maria is OP, which of course she is, is there really a point in showcasing how she beats up on everyone? We get that she's crazy strong and is winning without any issues, so is there a need to keep showing her? My idea, is that she's trying to show Jiu-tae how he's supposed to fight, which is cool, but like, if she's trying to make him the strongest Jiujiteiro (like she said in chapter 1), wouldn't it be better to teach him how to actually land his Jiu-Jitsu moves in the matches? As of yet all she's doing is teaching him how to strike, but like, what? I thought he was supposed to learn Jiu-Jitsu. I get that punching is important but I mean, isn't submissions a big part of BJJ? IDK man. This also kind of reflects back on my issue of Jiu-tae not getting developed. Has Jiu-tae learned any BJJ moves besides armbar, is that it? BJJ is just armbar, or did I miss some other BJJ moves? I don't even remember man.
I think if you're going to address someone's argument/statement you should just address what they said. I believe you're doing a fine job of actually responding to what people say so its cool, but a lot of people are just talking passed each other instead of at each other so yea. But its not all that important, its all just opinions and its fun to discuss stories, that's the whole point of a forum. Different opinions, so cheers.
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@Amegashi Haha thanks for the kind words man. I try my best to keep it civil in here since exchanging different POV's about the same subject is always fun and can help others understand some things that may seem difficult to grasp, but sometimes it can degenerate into heated arguments that end up being toxic. So In that regard I appreciate the positive feedback.
Now, in regards to your counterargument, allow me to point out a few things that I didn't mention in my previous comment:
The Eun-sol fight happened during a test for the 1st Years held behind closed doors so there wasn't an audience and only the coaches and referees were present while the other students waited for their turn inside the locker room. in addition, there's no evidence of them recording the test matches, which weren't official in the first place. Also, People seeing Maria using that grappling move against Eun-sol wouldn't be enough "evidence" for them to realize that Maria is a BJJ specialist because MMA fighters are expected to be competent in the five basic disciplines used in MMA (Punching, Kickboxing, submission grappling, takedowns and MMA-specific techniques).
MMA fighters have a main style that's usually related with the martial art they practiced before making the move to MMA but they train to become well rounded fighters to be ready when it's time to face a specialist of one of the other styles. In other words, just because you're a striker doesn't mean you can't be good at takedowns or have an arsenal of submission moves that you can use when the situation requires it. The same works for grapplers that train to become competent strikers. Eun-sol got to the conclusion that something was off about Maria being a striker because she wasn't impressed by her punches and kicks, getting submitted easily when she went for the takedown helped her reach to the conclusion that BJJ was Maria's true fighting style.
Maria is believed to be a striker because that's the style of fight she chooses to use despite not being her specialty. She just happens to be better at it than most of the other fight class students given her level of skill (remember it's been stated she's already Pro-level). If she started to use her BJJ abilities consistently during her fights, then people certainly would start questioning this assumption but we're talking about a one-off thing since I'm not including the move she used against Young-Woong (AKA Hero dude lol) because he was already knocked out and Maria bumped the ref to have enough time to break his arm. Regarding the moves she used in the flashback, she used a lock to break the arm of one of her seniors but that wasn't necessarily a BJJ move, In fact it looked a bit unorthodox but still effective.
Her mysterious past also plays a part in this whole thing. Every student has an accessible background / track record that allows the school, and us readers, to know their previous field of activity as well as their main fighting style. We Know Ha-min was a kickboxer, Tae-young specialty is Karate, Bang Jung-eum does Capoeira and so on. Since there's no info (at least not yet) about Maria's background other than what she has told Ji-tae. We don't know much about how many years she trained, and where/ if she competed in martial arts before embarking on her quest for revenge. So no. The premise doesn't collapse just by Maria performing a Jiu-Jitsu move on Eun-Sol, and this is where I tie in with your point about Kim Don-wong seeing Maria teach the flying armbar to Ji-tae.
I'm not here to pretend I'm an MMA guru or anything like that, but working on this series has prompted myself and the rest of the staff to do our research on the matter since we want to have a better understanding of the action taking place in order to give the readers more info about it in the notes you see on the chapters. The armbar is not a BJJ move. Is a Kokodan Judo move originally called jūji-gatame. While it's true that is a move widely used in other grappling martial arts such as jiu-jitsu, catch wrestling, judo, jujutsu, Sambo, and shoot wrestling, is not right to assume that a person is a BJJ grappler just by the use of this move alone.
Finally, I won't debate about how you feel in regards to Ji-tae's training since that's your opinion. I'll just point out that the focus of Ji-tae's training with Maria has been BJJ. She has taught him the basics of defense, the flying armbar and also the breakfall. The striking training Ji-tae has gotten has been of behalf of the school's coaching staff while also complementing the grappling part alongside the other Rank D girls in his class who also happen to do BJJ.
I think I've extended way to much so sorry about that. As you can see my response is centered around facts presented in the manga rather than individual opinions since everyone is entitled to their own and is not my place to judge who's right or wrong. I just wanted to lay out all the info we've gotten on the matter from the manga itself since it seemed that you've got the idea I was making assumptions which isn't the case. On the contrary, the mistake would be to assume that everyone should be aware that Maria is a BJJ grappler when the manga hasn't presented enough evidence to make a case for that. Maybe a future flashback proves otherwise but until then, this is the info we have an the reason to why her style being BJJ isn't a public knowledge thing.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond and keep it civil. As I said. It's always nice to share different perspectives on the same subject. Have a nice day.
P.S. See you all on the next chapter comments lol.
Now, in regards to your counterargument, allow me to point out a few things that I didn't mention in my previous comment:
The Eun-sol fight happened during a test for the 1st Years held behind closed doors so there wasn't an audience and only the coaches and referees were present while the other students waited for their turn inside the locker room. in addition, there's no evidence of them recording the test matches, which weren't official in the first place. Also, People seeing Maria using that grappling move against Eun-sol wouldn't be enough "evidence" for them to realize that Maria is a BJJ specialist because MMA fighters are expected to be competent in the five basic disciplines used in MMA (Punching, Kickboxing, submission grappling, takedowns and MMA-specific techniques).
MMA fighters have a main style that's usually related with the martial art they practiced before making the move to MMA but they train to become well rounded fighters to be ready when it's time to face a specialist of one of the other styles. In other words, just because you're a striker doesn't mean you can't be good at takedowns or have an arsenal of submission moves that you can use when the situation requires it. The same works for grapplers that train to become competent strikers. Eun-sol got to the conclusion that something was off about Maria being a striker because she wasn't impressed by her punches and kicks, getting submitted easily when she went for the takedown helped her reach to the conclusion that BJJ was Maria's true fighting style.
Maria is believed to be a striker because that's the style of fight she chooses to use despite not being her specialty. She just happens to be better at it than most of the other fight class students given her level of skill (remember it's been stated she's already Pro-level). If she started to use her BJJ abilities consistently during her fights, then people certainly would start questioning this assumption but we're talking about a one-off thing since I'm not including the move she used against Young-Woong (AKA Hero dude lol) because he was already knocked out and Maria bumped the ref to have enough time to break his arm. Regarding the moves she used in the flashback, she used a lock to break the arm of one of her seniors but that wasn't necessarily a BJJ move, In fact it looked a bit unorthodox but still effective.
Her mysterious past also plays a part in this whole thing. Every student has an accessible background / track record that allows the school, and us readers, to know their previous field of activity as well as their main fighting style. We Know Ha-min was a kickboxer, Tae-young specialty is Karate, Bang Jung-eum does Capoeira and so on. Since there's no info (at least not yet) about Maria's background other than what she has told Ji-tae. We don't know much about how many years she trained, and where/ if she competed in martial arts before embarking on her quest for revenge. So no. The premise doesn't collapse just by Maria performing a Jiu-Jitsu move on Eun-Sol, and this is where I tie in with your point about Kim Don-wong seeing Maria teach the flying armbar to Ji-tae.
I'm not here to pretend I'm an MMA guru or anything like that, but working on this series has prompted myself and the rest of the staff to do our research on the matter since we want to have a better understanding of the action taking place in order to give the readers more info about it in the notes you see on the chapters. The armbar is not a BJJ move. Is a Kokodan Judo move originally called jūji-gatame. While it's true that is a move widely used in other grappling martial arts such as jiu-jitsu, catch wrestling, judo, jujutsu, Sambo, and shoot wrestling, is not right to assume that a person is a BJJ grappler just by the use of this move alone.
Finally, I won't debate about how you feel in regards to Ji-tae's training since that's your opinion. I'll just point out that the focus of Ji-tae's training with Maria has been BJJ. She has taught him the basics of defense, the flying armbar and also the breakfall. The striking training Ji-tae has gotten has been of behalf of the school's coaching staff while also complementing the grappling part alongside the other Rank D girls in his class who also happen to do BJJ.
I think I've extended way to much so sorry about that. As you can see my response is centered around facts presented in the manga rather than individual opinions since everyone is entitled to their own and is not my place to judge who's right or wrong. I just wanted to lay out all the info we've gotten on the matter from the manga itself since it seemed that you've got the idea I was making assumptions which isn't the case. On the contrary, the mistake would be to assume that everyone should be aware that Maria is a BJJ grappler when the manga hasn't presented enough evidence to make a case for that. Maybe a future flashback proves otherwise but until then, this is the info we have an the reason to why her style being BJJ isn't a public knowledge thing.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond and keep it civil. As I said. It's always nice to share different perspectives on the same subject. Have a nice day.
P.S. See you all on the next chapter comments lol.
@shinratensei16 These are really good points and help resolve some of my issues with the premise. I still have a hard time fully accepting it because, if Eun-sol was able to realize it, I can't really see how some other fighters haven't realized it as well. Especially in the second years, but we don't see much of them so who knows. Your points resolve a lot of issues for me, but I still have my qualms. Just by showing that one person figured out Maria’s style opens up the rabbit hole that more students knows her style.
As for Ji-tae, if the idea is for Maria to teach him to be the strongest Jiujiteiro, when she fights in matches as far as I can tell she's fighting in a way for him to emulate, but once again wouldn't it make more sense to showcase for him how to actually land his jiu-jitsu moves in matches?
I'm a little interested in your sources on the flying arm bar. Hasn't Jiu-jitsu been around since the 1400s and Judo's only been established in the 1800s? Was flying arm bar only a recent addition to Jiu-jitsu?
As for Ji-tae, if the idea is for Maria to teach him to be the strongest Jiujiteiro, when she fights in matches as far as I can tell she's fighting in a way for him to emulate, but once again wouldn't it make more sense to showcase for him how to actually land his jiu-jitsu moves in matches?
I'm a little interested in your sources on the flying arm bar. Hasn't Jiu-jitsu been around since the 1400s and Judo's only been established in the 1800s? Was flying arm bar only a recent addition to Jiu-jitsu?
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@Amegashi Well, I'm sure some of the other students would have noticed if they were allowed to watch the matches during the test instead of just waiting for their turn in the locker room lol. Eun-sol learned by experiencing Maria's BJJ first hand but is plausible that other talented fighters would have noticed this aswell, while the not so bright ones might've played it out as "cool... not only she's a striker, she can grapple too". I have a hunch that the fighters in class 3 know about Maria's style but I don't have any facts backing that up so I'll leave it at that...
About Maria not using BJJ as a way to teach Ji-tae, my belief is that she might think she doesn't need to since she has 1 on 1 training sessions with him. Also, this would showcase her true abilities to the rest of the school and seems she's avoiding it for a reason (most likely related with her revenge plans and stuff). Having said that, she tried to use her fight against Young-Woong as a way to teach Ji-tae how to use an out-boxer strategy that is more suited to his physical conditions. Sadly, the guy started talking shit so she scrapped and went full psycho on him lol.
You're correct about the difference in years between the establishment of Jiu-jitsu and Judo but let's not get Traditional Jiu-jitsu and BJJ mixed up. The latter is a 3rd generation hybrid that implements influences from both traditional jiu-jitsu and Judo. Also, while Japanese JJ focuses on self-defence, BJJ is more combat-sports oriented. Since I don't want to leave another wall of text (lol) here's a nice article that explains the similarities and differences between both martial arts. https://bjj-world.com/difference-japanese-traditional-jiu-jitsu-bjj/
As for the flying armbar, as I said in the previous comment, the "Ude-Hishigi-Juji-Gatame" is one of the official 29 grappling techniques of Kodokan Judo. To give an example, Ronda Rousey (former Judoka) made a name for herself in MMA by using this move as her main submission thecnique.
I hope this info can be useful. Thanks again man.
About Maria not using BJJ as a way to teach Ji-tae, my belief is that she might think she doesn't need to since she has 1 on 1 training sessions with him. Also, this would showcase her true abilities to the rest of the school and seems she's avoiding it for a reason (most likely related with her revenge plans and stuff). Having said that, she tried to use her fight against Young-Woong as a way to teach Ji-tae how to use an out-boxer strategy that is more suited to his physical conditions. Sadly, the guy started talking shit so she scrapped and went full psycho on him lol.
You're correct about the difference in years between the establishment of Jiu-jitsu and Judo but let's not get Traditional Jiu-jitsu and BJJ mixed up. The latter is a 3rd generation hybrid that implements influences from both traditional jiu-jitsu and Judo. Also, while Japanese JJ focuses on self-defence, BJJ is more combat-sports oriented. Since I don't want to leave another wall of text (lol) here's a nice article that explains the similarities and differences between both martial arts. https://bjj-world.com/difference-japanese-traditional-jiu-jitsu-bjj/
As for the flying armbar, as I said in the previous comment, the "Ude-Hishigi-Juji-Gatame" is one of the official 29 grappling techniques of Kodokan Judo. To give an example, Ronda Rousey (former Judoka) made a name for herself in MMA by using this move as her main submission thecnique.
I hope this info can be useful. Thanks again man.
@shinratensei16 I think its likely that class 1-1's teacher knows as well. I also think, whoever got 1st in the Maria sweepstakes, probably noticed as well. I think outside of that, its a bit hard to believe that no one else besides Eun-sol got her to do BJJ moves so there's probably a bunch of random people who know. I'm curious as to why no one has mentioned it, but it probably doesn't matter. If you can't deal with her strikes, knowing she does BJJ won't help you. Class 3 most likely does know, but we can only know once we get there.
I think Maria is using all her matches as a showcase for Jiu-tae to emulate, and I guess she's relying on his natural ability to experiment and recreate situations to learn how to apply BJJ moves in match.
Definitely gonna read through that link, thanks! It was a fun convo, definitely helped resolve some things for me. Not everything, but that'll have to wait for future chapters.
I think Maria is using all her matches as a showcase for Jiu-tae to emulate, and I guess she's relying on his natural ability to experiment and recreate situations to learn how to apply BJJ moves in match.
Definitely gonna read through that link, thanks! It was a fun convo, definitely helped resolve some things for me. Not everything, but that'll have to wait for future chapters.
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@shinratensei16 @Amegashi Noticed that in this discussion about my opinion, I was not getting tagged and it took till the latest chapter update to notice:
I will lay out why I have a problem with the way Maria wins fights. Not that she wins fights, or even that she's the dominant fighter in her class by a mile, but how.
There are, arguably, four main factors as to hand-to-hand martial arts performance:
1. Athleticism (cardio, strength, "chin" etc)
2. Technique (your style/styles and technical ability in those)
3. Gameplan (your specific strategy for a fight)
4. Mentality (your level of mental focus and willpower on the day of a fight)
Now, let's just look at the fight with Ha-min because it's clearly been the most she's been tested in a straight fight in the manga thus far. We can remove 4. from the table since Ha-min was not lacking spirit and neither was Maria.
In category 1. Maria is explicitly unimpressive, she's not particularly strong. Maybe she's got great cardio, but none of her fights have left the first round and this was the first one to leave the first minute so we have no idea. No idea about her "chin" (ability to withstand strikes) since she's only taken two in the whole series. Ha-min was able to withstand a tackle from the strongest person in the class with almost no warning so he's clearly physically capable, at least on a similar level but highly likely stronger. But let's lowball it and say he's more or less equal. The important factor is that Maria does not have a physical advantage.
In category 3. (I'm saving 2 for last) Ha-min had a strong gameplan designed to specifically limit all of Maria's best options in striking. Maria did not have a specific plan for Ha-min beyond her usual approach.
So if Maria and Ha-min are equal in willpower, at least equal in strength if not Ha-min with an advantage, and if Ha-min has an advantage in a superior strategy, how did Maria still win?
The obvious answer is category 2. But here's the problem with category 2. Maria is not using her best techniques, since her best techniques are grappling focused. She's using striking, which is Ha-min's natural ground rather than her own. In addition to that, Ha-min does not know that she is a god tier grappler. Grappling skill makes you more dangerous as a striker traditionally because the opponent's options are limited by having to be wary of walking into a takedown attempt. (If you want a recent example of this, Khabib Nurmagemadov basically made that the core of his tactics). So not only is Maria fighting in a non-optimal way, she's fighting in one of the least optimal ways she could have picked; this is the absolute worst approach she can take against an excellent kickboxer.
But Maria doesn't just win with this least optimal strategy, it's absolutely one-sided after Ha-min's initial barrage.
But she's pro-level, the story says; but they're all so young, how can she have such a gigantic experience advantage? She's not only got enough experience that she demolished her entire class each literally in seconds, she's not only got enough experience with something that isn't her main style to beat people who do specialise in striking, she's got enough experience that she was beating them in seconds with with her non-main style. Even with her clearly hinted at spartan training as a child, this is absolutely absurd; this is one of the best fighting schools in the country and Maria isn't even having to flex herself to utterly destroy her opponents even if they're physically superior to her. Every single fight she's in is an absolute wash no matter what she or her opponent does.
Finally, yeah, at a certain point you just have to shrug and accept it going forward, which is what I'm going to do. But I still maintain it is a mistake; there's a very DBZ-esque emphasis on characters being stronger equalling being untouchable by people lower on the food chain. For example, prior to Maria Ha-min's hardest fight was with the Taekwondo guy, even though that should have been the easiest match-up for him because he'd be fighting another striking specialist, whereas the person he should have had the least compatibility with, a wrestler who could lift three times her own body weight, forfeited prior to the match because victory was impossible; and as for her, she chose to fight and was handily beating a capeoria specialist on the feet. Why is there so much emphasis on fighting style if it's going to be ignored so readily?
I will lay out why I have a problem with the way Maria wins fights. Not that she wins fights, or even that she's the dominant fighter in her class by a mile, but how.
There are, arguably, four main factors as to hand-to-hand martial arts performance:
1. Athleticism (cardio, strength, "chin" etc)
2. Technique (your style/styles and technical ability in those)
3. Gameplan (your specific strategy for a fight)
4. Mentality (your level of mental focus and willpower on the day of a fight)
Now, let's just look at the fight with Ha-min because it's clearly been the most she's been tested in a straight fight in the manga thus far. We can remove 4. from the table since Ha-min was not lacking spirit and neither was Maria.
In category 1. Maria is explicitly unimpressive, she's not particularly strong. Maybe she's got great cardio, but none of her fights have left the first round and this was the first one to leave the first minute so we have no idea. No idea about her "chin" (ability to withstand strikes) since she's only taken two in the whole series. Ha-min was able to withstand a tackle from the strongest person in the class with almost no warning so he's clearly physically capable, at least on a similar level but highly likely stronger. But let's lowball it and say he's more or less equal. The important factor is that Maria does not have a physical advantage.
In category 3. (I'm saving 2 for last) Ha-min had a strong gameplan designed to specifically limit all of Maria's best options in striking. Maria did not have a specific plan for Ha-min beyond her usual approach.
So if Maria and Ha-min are equal in willpower, at least equal in strength if not Ha-min with an advantage, and if Ha-min has an advantage in a superior strategy, how did Maria still win?
The obvious answer is category 2. But here's the problem with category 2. Maria is not using her best techniques, since her best techniques are grappling focused. She's using striking, which is Ha-min's natural ground rather than her own. In addition to that, Ha-min does not know that she is a god tier grappler. Grappling skill makes you more dangerous as a striker traditionally because the opponent's options are limited by having to be wary of walking into a takedown attempt. (If you want a recent example of this, Khabib Nurmagemadov basically made that the core of his tactics). So not only is Maria fighting in a non-optimal way, she's fighting in one of the least optimal ways she could have picked; this is the absolute worst approach she can take against an excellent kickboxer.
But Maria doesn't just win with this least optimal strategy, it's absolutely one-sided after Ha-min's initial barrage.
But she's pro-level, the story says; but they're all so young, how can she have such a gigantic experience advantage? She's not only got enough experience that she demolished her entire class each literally in seconds, she's not only got enough experience with something that isn't her main style to beat people who do specialise in striking, she's got enough experience that she was beating them in seconds with with her non-main style. Even with her clearly hinted at spartan training as a child, this is absolutely absurd; this is one of the best fighting schools in the country and Maria isn't even having to flex herself to utterly destroy her opponents even if they're physically superior to her. Every single fight she's in is an absolute wash no matter what she or her opponent does.
Finally, yeah, at a certain point you just have to shrug and accept it going forward, which is what I'm going to do. But I still maintain it is a mistake; there's a very DBZ-esque emphasis on characters being stronger equalling being untouchable by people lower on the food chain. For example, prior to Maria Ha-min's hardest fight was with the Taekwondo guy, even though that should have been the easiest match-up for him because he'd be fighting another striking specialist, whereas the person he should have had the least compatibility with, a wrestler who could lift three times her own body weight, forfeited prior to the match because victory was impossible; and as for her, she chose to fight and was handily beating a capeoria specialist on the feet. Why is there so much emphasis on fighting style if it's going to be ignored so readily?
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Lowkey the best moment of the chapter lol
@shinratensei16 @Sigilbreaker26 Damn, you guy still arguing? lol
@shinratensei16 @Sigilbreaker26 Damn, you guy still arguing? lol
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@Sigilbreaker26 Sorry for not tagging you. Although the discussion with @Amegashi was more about checking the facts presented in the story rather than stating if your opinion (on anyone else's for that matter) was right or wrong. As I previously mentioned it to him, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, is just that sometimes some of the facts presented in the story can get misunderstood or misrepresented, which can lead to arguments based on fallacies or misconstructions of said facts.
But since we're here allow me to address your argument:
The series is a work of fiction. Yeah, its setting is very similar to the real world but there are quite a few premises presented from the get go wich require a willing suspension of disbilief from the reader's part. The main three being:
1. The fact that this is a world where Korea is the global capital of combat sports.
2. The fact that weight classes are a non decisive factor in MMA fights nor are considered as part of the sports rules.
3. The fact that intergender fights aren't a rarity but the norm and that male and female fighters stand on equal ground when it comes to fighting.
This is what I would call "tweaking reality", which authors often do in order to be able to tell the story they want to tell. So, at this point is very clear that if we try to keep the series grounded on real world rules there's gonna be a clear dissonance which would probably lead to both a lot of nitpicking aswell as a lack of overall enjoyment of the series. This is why is very important to keep the evaluation to the rules established by the series itself. Of course, this is a series about strong fighters but regular fighters nonetheless, so things as superhuman abilities seem to be out of the equation.
Now, to address you 4 main points about Maria:
Athleticism: While it's true that Maria strength isn't her most impressive feat, and is ranked as average among the fight class, this doesn't mean she is a weak person. Also, the coach herself stated that she makes up for her lack of power by using her elbows and knees to attack her opponents' critical points. She mentioned her speed being insane by stating that "her muscle flexion is similar to a spring" and that "her blows are so fast in the moment that her strikes may not be visible to the eye". So we can say that Maria is still freakly athletic despite not being the most powerful fighter in terms of brute strength.
Thecnique: The coach praised Maria's level of accuracy when attacking which is the result of "a hellish amount of repetition". She also mentioned that Maria has the skill level of a veteran despite her early age and that her body sight, ability to read moves and resourcefulness make you think "she was just born with that talent" when it comes to her fighting sense, going so far as to call her "a true genius". Finally she warned Ha-min that Maria's skills are hard to surpass because "she's naturally good at the basic fundamentals" and that she's at a profesional level. In other words, Maria is a true prodigy with the skill level of a pro and I have to mention that all this praise is based on her skill display as a striker, not a grappler. So while her striking isn't his best style, it's still elite to the point she's able to defeat her opponents without resorting to BJJ.
Gameplan and Mentality: Even coach Jang herself told Ha-min he had no shot against Maria based on the previously stated so is not like Maria needed a gameplan to deal with Ha-min, it was Ha-min the one in need of a gameplan that would allow him to close the gap and have a shot against her. Maria is simply confident because she knows she's better than Ha-min to the point where the coach just told her to "obey the rules" and "play fair"lol. She acknowledged Ha-min as her best student as of yet, but he still a student facing a fighter good enough to be considered on a "pro level". We know that Ha-min was focused and gave his all but that didn't make much of a difference in the end.
It's true that her being this good raises a lot of questions but we have to consider the fact that Maria's past and background in regards to fighting is still a mystery so expect that to be addressed in future chapters. Not every answer can be given to the reader right away, so while I understand where you're coming from I would expect until the manwha addresses Maria's past before making such a judgement about her current level of skill.
But since we're here allow me to address your argument:
The series is a work of fiction. Yeah, its setting is very similar to the real world but there are quite a few premises presented from the get go wich require a willing suspension of disbilief from the reader's part. The main three being:
1. The fact that this is a world where Korea is the global capital of combat sports.
2. The fact that weight classes are a non decisive factor in MMA fights nor are considered as part of the sports rules.
3. The fact that intergender fights aren't a rarity but the norm and that male and female fighters stand on equal ground when it comes to fighting.
This is what I would call "tweaking reality", which authors often do in order to be able to tell the story they want to tell. So, at this point is very clear that if we try to keep the series grounded on real world rules there's gonna be a clear dissonance which would probably lead to both a lot of nitpicking aswell as a lack of overall enjoyment of the series. This is why is very important to keep the evaluation to the rules established by the series itself. Of course, this is a series about strong fighters but regular fighters nonetheless, so things as superhuman abilities seem to be out of the equation.
Now, to address you 4 main points about Maria:
Athleticism: While it's true that Maria strength isn't her most impressive feat, and is ranked as average among the fight class, this doesn't mean she is a weak person. Also, the coach herself stated that she makes up for her lack of power by using her elbows and knees to attack her opponents' critical points. She mentioned her speed being insane by stating that "her muscle flexion is similar to a spring" and that "her blows are so fast in the moment that her strikes may not be visible to the eye". So we can say that Maria is still freakly athletic despite not being the most powerful fighter in terms of brute strength.
Thecnique: The coach praised Maria's level of accuracy when attacking which is the result of "a hellish amount of repetition". She also mentioned that Maria has the skill level of a veteran despite her early age and that her body sight, ability to read moves and resourcefulness make you think "she was just born with that talent" when it comes to her fighting sense, going so far as to call her "a true genius". Finally she warned Ha-min that Maria's skills are hard to surpass because "she's naturally good at the basic fundamentals" and that she's at a profesional level. In other words, Maria is a true prodigy with the skill level of a pro and I have to mention that all this praise is based on her skill display as a striker, not a grappler. So while her striking isn't his best style, it's still elite to the point she's able to defeat her opponents without resorting to BJJ.
Gameplan and Mentality: Even coach Jang herself told Ha-min he had no shot against Maria based on the previously stated so is not like Maria needed a gameplan to deal with Ha-min, it was Ha-min the one in need of a gameplan that would allow him to close the gap and have a shot against her. Maria is simply confident because she knows she's better than Ha-min to the point where the coach just told her to "obey the rules" and "play fair"lol. She acknowledged Ha-min as her best student as of yet, but he still a student facing a fighter good enough to be considered on a "pro level". We know that Ha-min was focused and gave his all but that didn't make much of a difference in the end.
It's true that her being this good raises a lot of questions but we have to consider the fact that Maria's past and background in regards to fighting is still a mystery so expect that to be addressed in future chapters. Not every answer can be given to the reader right away, so while I understand where you're coming from I would expect until the manwha addresses Maria's past before making such a judgement about her current level of skill.
