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Genjitsushugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki - Vol. 4 Ch. 21 - Declaration of War (1)
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@HOOfan_1
You seem to miss a few things about my argument:
1) Souma was summoned as a Hero for the Alliance against the Demon Forces, so he isn't some random stranger, he was literally summoned to help solve a crisis. So already that's one point to giving Souma the Benefit of the Doubt. Then he goes on to introduce reforms that are all aimed at not only settling the current food crisis but also lay down the foundation for a stronger independent nation in the future, so that's a few other points towards giving Souma the Benefit of the Doubt.
2) Castor ignores the fact that the Strategic General of the 3 of them, sides with Souma, due to his personal feelings. As the leader of not only a branch of a kingdom's military forces, especially one as strategically important as the Air Force, but also a Duke, meaning that he has Civilians he needs to look after, the fact that he did not at least take a minute to think about the implications of Excel's decision does not exactly fill me with confidence.
3) Especially when he ignored that Duke Carmine's sheltering nobles known to have been corrupt, which runs counter to what Carmine's reputation was up to that point.
So that's one general who was doing something atypical, and another who never moves without a specific purpose suddenly declaring that she's for the new king, who had not only started solving one crisis, but due to his reforms was able to respond to a natural disaster in time to save as many lives as possible, on top of his well-known hunt for corrupt nobles siphoning the Kingdom's Funds for their personal gain.
I mean you have your opinion, and as you can see, I have mine, and I say that Castor could not be trusted at all with the news that Carmine was setting himself up as the Fall Guy, and remember, Souma did not share his ultimate plan with the generals either, but Carmine figured out near instantly what Souma was doing, and chances are Excel figured it out as well when she was asked to shore up the defenses of the city. Now compare that to Castor completely missing the heavy hints around the situation at hand.
You seem to miss a few things about my argument:
1) Souma was summoned as a Hero for the Alliance against the Demon Forces, so he isn't some random stranger, he was literally summoned to help solve a crisis. So already that's one point to giving Souma the Benefit of the Doubt. Then he goes on to introduce reforms that are all aimed at not only settling the current food crisis but also lay down the foundation for a stronger independent nation in the future, so that's a few other points towards giving Souma the Benefit of the Doubt.
2) Castor ignores the fact that the Strategic General of the 3 of them, sides with Souma, due to his personal feelings. As the leader of not only a branch of a kingdom's military forces, especially one as strategically important as the Air Force, but also a Duke, meaning that he has Civilians he needs to look after, the fact that he did not at least take a minute to think about the implications of Excel's decision does not exactly fill me with confidence.
3) Especially when he ignored that Duke Carmine's sheltering nobles known to have been corrupt, which runs counter to what Carmine's reputation was up to that point.
So that's one general who was doing something atypical, and another who never moves without a specific purpose suddenly declaring that she's for the new king, who had not only started solving one crisis, but due to his reforms was able to respond to a natural disaster in time to save as many lives as possible, on top of his well-known hunt for corrupt nobles siphoning the Kingdom's Funds for their personal gain.
I mean you have your opinion, and as you can see, I have mine, and I say that Castor could not be trusted at all with the news that Carmine was setting himself up as the Fall Guy, and remember, Souma did not share his ultimate plan with the generals either, but Carmine figured out near instantly what Souma was doing, and chances are Excel figured it out as well when she was asked to shore up the defenses of the city. Now compare that to Castor completely missing the heavy hints around the situation at hand.
@Talismaster
But, she doesn't need a slave collar to force her to kill him if he hurts Licia. I'm pretty sure she wouldn't hesitate even without a slave mark to kill him if he hurts Licia, because she and Licia are best friends. I thought he also had the slave collar reset to revert her ownership to Licia if Carla had to kill him for that reason.
The fact that she is bully bait is what is kind of annoying. The story goes out of its way to make us feel sympathy for how she was dragged into rebellion thinking that she was saving the kingdom and Licia from a tyrant. Then her suffering becomes ecchi bait and comedy. She's a young woman too. Maybe she wants to fall in love, get married and have a family, but now as a slave, she pretty much can't. I guess you can say that as a dragon kind, she has a long life and maybe however long Souma is alive, or keeps her as a slave isn't really a significant part of her life span, but the physical abuse seems over the top
The fact that she is bully bait is what is kind of annoying. The story goes out of its way to make us feel sympathy for how she was dragged into rebellion thinking that she was saving the kingdom and Licia from a tyrant. Then her suffering becomes ecchi bait and comedy. She's a young woman too. Maybe she wants to fall in love, get married and have a family, but now as a slave, she pretty much can't. I guess you can say that as a dragon kind, she has a long life and maybe however long Souma is alive, or keeps her as a slave isn't really a significant part of her life span, but the physical abuse seems over the top
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@HOOfan_1
You hit on exactly why I found this so troublesome
You hit on exactly why I found this so troublesome
I despise that sadist bitch of a maid, and honestly Souma’s inability to reign her in shows that
he is being too self-absorbed when it comes to his inner circle. He gives her an important order to kill
him if he becomes a tyrant knowing full well it will kill her too? Does he think Castor, who is now head of intelligence and his followers
will take that lying down? Great foresight. And as many have pointed out, he does outplay many others in power but mostly due to their plot-induced stupidity. He does do some genuinely smart things, but it’s also somewhat undermined by the fact that the former queen knows how things will turn out; so he can’t lose! I only hope the Demons actually are able to effectively pushback against humanity, and give the story some great tension with higher stakes. And hopefully the maid and/or her nice fat husband become casualties. I seem overly critical, but this story is actually one of the better I’ve seen of the genre. I’d like it to be one of the best. Still too early to tell, but it does have great potential and world building.
he is being too self-absorbed when it comes to his inner circle. He gives her an important order to kill
him if he becomes a tyrant knowing full well it will kill her too? Does he think Castor, who is now head of intelligence and his followers
will take that lying down? Great foresight. And as many have pointed out, he does outplay many others in power but mostly due to their plot-induced stupidity. He does do some genuinely smart things, but it’s also somewhat undermined by the fact that the former queen knows how things will turn out; so he can’t lose! I only hope the Demons actually are able to effectively pushback against humanity, and give the story some great tension with higher stakes. And hopefully the maid and/or her nice fat husband become casualties. I seem overly critical, but this story is actually one of the better I’ve seen of the genre. I’d like it to be one of the best. Still too early to tell, but it does have great potential and world building.
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Pay ransom? Can't pay if they're dead, problem solved.
@Sep10trion
Yup....I think this is one of the best Isekai except for
Yup....I think this is one of the best Isekai except for
the way Carla is treated. I don't really think the audience is meant to feel sorry for her though, and I don't think the author means for it to seem like she is suffering. I think it is meant to be a comedic thing. I think we are to take it that Carla is actually happy with her circumstances, but the few times she suffers are just comedic or "sexy" moments. The fact that Souma is trying to ban slavery in the nation makes it all the more odd, even if you consider Carla's slavery is a criminal punishment. As far as I know she has not been released from slavery in the Light Novels, but I hope eventually she is, because she honestly doesn't deserve it.
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@HOOfan_1
@jonuiuc
He's not dead yet, but what can they do except execute him?
I wouldn't be too bothered by Carla's slavery if Castor was also a slave. I can understand that for one guilty of treason, as she is, slavery is a light punishment. And that traitors have to be punished, and be seen to be punished. But Castor, who's much more responsible for the whole mess than she is, gets away with what amounts to a slight demotion. That's bullshit.
@jonuiuc
He's not dead yet, but what can they do except execute him?
@AlmondMagnum
I just think calling her a traitor is a bit of a stretch. She never attacked Souma, just defended herself when he attacked them. She didn't seem intent on overthrowing Souma, she just went with her father when he refused to declare loyalty to Souma or recognize him as king. She thought she had the nation's interest in mind and she thought she had the rightful royal family's interest in mind. It wasn't a selfish power grab. As I said earlier, even Liscia didn't trust Souma and thought her father was bewitched at first.
When Carla found out she had been misguided, she repented and was ready to declare loyalty to Souma. There have been plenty of incidents in real history where a victor of a civil war or revolution pardoned the loser who declares allegiance to the victor in order to strengthen the nation. That's why Souma went light on Castor, but he should have gone light on Carla as well. He could have easily removed the slave collar and just told her she was to stay with the royal family until further notice. He certainly should have prevented the Head Maid from physically abusing her.
When Carla found out she had been misguided, she repented and was ready to declare loyalty to Souma. There have been plenty of incidents in real history where a victor of a civil war or revolution pardoned the loser who declares allegiance to the victor in order to strengthen the nation. That's why Souma went light on Castor, but he should have gone light on Carla as well. He could have easily removed the slave collar and just told her she was to stay with the royal family until further notice. He certainly should have prevented the Head Maid from physically abusing her.
Sep10trion: Well, to my understanding, Kazuya doesn't really treat both Castor and Carla that badly though.
As for the other part,
He had left all the things relating to Castor on that other 'person', so technically he doesn't even bother with him.
As for Carla, while he doesn't treat her bad, or is harsh on her. But yeah, he does ends up using her as a bait to save himself from a certain 'someone' and also make her do things which others would be embarrassed about, as she can't deny him.
As for Carla, while he doesn't treat her bad, or is harsh on her. But yeah, he does ends up using her as a bait to save himself from a certain 'someone' and also make her do things which others would be embarrassed about, as she can't deny him.
As for the other part,
Well, based on the hints given within the LN, the Demons might not even be the actual enemies, so there isn't really a need for a huge war or invasion from the other side. And i guess, both the Kingdom and Empire wouldn't want to got at war with Demons as they have slightly understood the situation (with the whole difference between Demons and Monsters thing).
As for challenge, the premise of this story is "Civic System & Governance", so i doubt we would actually see any huge action packed stuff happening, as most of the wars which would be fought are tactical types.
As for challenge, the premise of this story is "Civic System & Governance", so i doubt we would actually see any huge action packed stuff happening, as most of the wars which would be fought are tactical types.
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A lot of moralists in here.
Souma wants to make two very important points with his current treatment of the unloyal nobles:
1. Everyone is equal before the law.
Souma cannot pardon people willy-nilly at his own leisure. He c o u l d. But that would send the wrong message. It would show that the nobles, who just got a lot of people killed with their grandstanding, are above the law and do not have to suffer the consequences of their actions. This would undermine his popularity with the people.
2. United we stand. Divided we fall.
If Souma were to pardon the nobles without any consequences, it would open the doors for later rebellions. If you look at history, rebellions are often repeated things were the ruling party fails to break his enemies and even suffers them. Those rebels then gain force and repeat their crimes, now with more support as the king has both shown such weakness and that you can rebel against them without losing your head.
This is a manga so I'm not going to be too surprised when everyone ends up pardoned, but that isn't the right course of action and it is what Souma alludes to with the cruelty of the ruler. The ruler needs to cruel just as he needs to be kind.
Oh and Machiavelli was wrong when he said mercenaries are useless, BTW. He said that at the time when Europe was d o m i n a t e d by mercenary armies. His belief was that they would crumble against native troops, who were actually fighting for their homes. He had an opportunity to test this out at one point. His army of patriots was crushed and routed before the traditional mercenary army.
Souma wants to make two very important points with his current treatment of the unloyal nobles:
1. Everyone is equal before the law.
Souma cannot pardon people willy-nilly at his own leisure. He c o u l d. But that would send the wrong message. It would show that the nobles, who just got a lot of people killed with their grandstanding, are above the law and do not have to suffer the consequences of their actions. This would undermine his popularity with the people.
2. United we stand. Divided we fall.
If Souma were to pardon the nobles without any consequences, it would open the doors for later rebellions. If you look at history, rebellions are often repeated things were the ruling party fails to break his enemies and even suffers them. Those rebels then gain force and repeat their crimes, now with more support as the king has both shown such weakness and that you can rebel against them without losing your head.
This is a manga so I'm not going to be too surprised when everyone ends up pardoned, but that isn't the right course of action and it is what Souma alludes to with the cruelty of the ruler. The ruler needs to cruel just as he needs to be kind.
Oh and Machiavelli was wrong when he said mercenaries are useless, BTW. He said that at the time when Europe was d o m i n a t e d by mercenary armies. His belief was that they would crumble against native troops, who were actually fighting for their homes. He had an opportunity to test this out at one point. His army of patriots was crushed and routed before the traditional mercenary army.
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it makes me feel slightly better than the only one here that was actually, truly, deeply and irredeemably stupid is castor. god what a retard. i thought dragons were big brain?
man. this whole plot was pretty fuckin dumb tho.
man. this whole plot was pretty fuckin dumb tho.
I called this kind of hidden conversation a dick move back when it happened several chapters ago, and this is exactly why.
A dozen chapters later when it's become a distant memory, the reveal renders all the tension and buildup pointless. I mean gratz, I was tricked in to thinking the frenemy was an actual enemy because they made me temporarily deaf. Now I'm realising we've spent the past several chapters essentially doing nothing while the guys who were the actual enemy haven't been mentioned more than twice during the whole war. And all those 'tough' decisions for the sak of victory seem incredibly hollow. And yet I still don't want to drop it!
A dozen chapters later when it's become a distant memory, the reveal renders all the tension and buildup pointless. I mean gratz, I was tricked in to thinking the frenemy was an actual enemy because they made me temporarily deaf. Now I'm realising we've spent the past several chapters essentially doing nothing while the guys who were the actual enemy haven't been mentioned more than twice during the whole war. And all those 'tough' decisions for the sak of victory seem incredibly hollow. And yet I still don't want to drop it!
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@spiderbait
People don't understand how a medieval European mindset works. To us today it really can be seen as blue and orange morality. It's best to remind oneself, that medieval kings were not absolutist rulers who strode around their castle and proclaimed "L’état c’est moi!" They had interdependences with the local nobility, who in most cases held far greater power as they were the ones who actually levied the troops. There are enough cases for a rebellious lord to retain all his titles and property if he paid a set amount of money and reaffirmed his loyalty to the king. This was common practice and not even frowned upon by the villein (not villain) and attainders were quite rare. Execution for treason was mostly something that happened to the peasantry, or nobles whoe had become a political problem. Rebellions being seen as an existential problem to the state, and thus punishable by death in all cases, is something that came into being after the French revolution, as the rebellions shifted from one or two nobles, with whom a kingdom could deal, to the people.
People don't understand how a medieval European mindset works. To us today it really can be seen as blue and orange morality. It's best to remind oneself, that medieval kings were not absolutist rulers who strode around their castle and proclaimed "L’état c’est moi!" They had interdependences with the local nobility, who in most cases held far greater power as they were the ones who actually levied the troops. There are enough cases for a rebellious lord to retain all his titles and property if he paid a set amount of money and reaffirmed his loyalty to the king. This was common practice and not even frowned upon by the villein (not villain) and attainders were quite rare. Execution for treason was mostly something that happened to the peasantry, or nobles whoe had become a political problem. Rebellions being seen as an existential problem to the state, and thus punishable by death in all cases, is something that came into being after the French revolution, as the rebellions shifted from one or two nobles, with whom a kingdom could deal, to the people.
Yeah Machiavelli didn't read his books all to well on that topic. Most mercenaries were very loyal (best example: Varangians and Swiss, especially the Swiss) and due to their lifestyle much more capable. Then again, the 30 years wouldn't come for another 100 years and prove him right on many points, not all though.
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