Girly Debut - Vol. 1 Ch. 2 - Polaris

[Narehate]

In the literal next chapter, chapter 3, Kitano and the others acknowledge themselves as boys, this keeps happening throughout the whole story, it's one of the main sources of drama, conflict and reflection of the narrative.

First: By Eguchi own words in the manga and his personal social media profile, Hibari is a boy. His relationship with Kosaku is an homosexual one, and that's what makes it so charming and daring.

I think an important thing to note is that when trans people refer to and are spoken of by others in Japan it’s treated differently culturally. In the West, “trans women = women, don’t refer to them as former men” and vice versa with trans men dominates the conversation, but I’ve seen a lot of trans people in Japan freely refer to themselves as “former men” and use other such language.

Using a western frame of reference to confirm or deny a character’s transness doesn’t really work because the language they use for them isn’t the same. There’s quite literally a trans woman autobiographical manga on this website that is TITLED “The Bride Used to be a Man”.

Generally speaking when a character or person is trans, from what I’ve seen anyways, phrasing like “the heart of a man/woman” or something to that effect specifically will come up a lot. In the west it’s like “I am literally and physically a woman” for the purposes of self-affirmation and confidence, and in Japan it’s “spiritually I am a woman, though my body is male and I won’t deny that.”

As it stands, to me anyways, Kitano hasn’t said anything of the like and only confirmed that he likes and always wanted to wear female clothing. I get trans vibes but I don’t take this as confirmation — it’s fine to want to express yourself with feminine clothing and not identify that way! That doesn’t have to mean you are trans. Right now I’m just keeping my eyes open.

 

[rotationplus]

[all that]

bum bum bum. another one gets ignored

This shit was fucking brutal. Also don't fucking engage with the trolls just ignore and move on you're ruining the thread.

 

[DaFatGuy]

I like to wear women’s clothes and look pretty but I am secure in my masculinity. The insistence that Kitano HAS to be trans is cringe af. Like, the femboy erasure is crazy.

If they’re trans, great! But until they say that, it’s not a sure thing. All we know is that Kitano wants to wear women’s clothes.

 

[Playerbase]

I like to wear women’s clothes and look pretty but I am secure in my masculinity. The insistence that Kitano HAS to be trans is cringe af. Like, the femboy erasure is crazy.

If they’re trans, great! But until they say that, it’s not a sure thing. All we know is that Kitano wants to wear women’s clothes.

Depends.

Do you feel depressed over not being able to wear them and wants to wear them 24/7?

 

[DaFatGuy]

Depends.

Do you feel depressed over not being able to wear them and wants to wear them 24/7?

There was indeed a period of time in my life where that was the case, and I always prefer to look feminine. I’m still a dude.

 

[Jhonathan45]

You seem to be under the impression that Kitano being a trans girl would be conventional and any potential romantic developments between Kitano and Girly would also be seen as conventional. Do we live in the same world? Kitano being a trans girl would be just as transgressive, if not moreso, than if they were a boy. Trans women often get called crossdressers anyways and then are further punished for asking to be treated as women. A man being together with a trans woman is often treated just a deviant as if she were a man.

Related, but you also seem to strictly think that otoko no ko=boy, and that is just not always clearcut. If you look on the Japanese wikipedia for 男の娘 you actually get differing definitions of the word otoko no ko, some of which include both femboys and trans people. It is not a unanimous definition of [assigned male]+[indentifies as a man]+[has a feminine appearance]. It's probably more accurate to think of otoko no ko as a subculture that can cover a few different kinds of people with similar experiences (some of which who identify differently).

Here's a diagram from that same wiki page:

And, yeah, trans women and crossdressers often frequent the same spaces and share similar interests (did you know there's trans women translating a lot of your otoko no ko manga). They can share a lot of the same experiences, which is why it's no surprise to me that trans women see a character like Kitano, whose life experiences heavily reflect their own, and go "that there's a trans girl if I've ever seen one". It's not very premise breaking for there to be one or more trans girls in the mix considering you'd just be thinking "there's only one cis girl" instead of "there's only one girl". Also, just, characters and people can develop over time. It would not be unthinkable for a crossdressing boy to go "actually, I think I'm a girl" after some experience crossdressing and people could be seeing Kitano going through something like that.

I don't personally think the story is portraying him as a girl, partially because of the marketing around this ("A boy-meets-boy coming-of-age drama"), partially because they haven't gone out and said it yet, partially vibes, and partially my own personal interests/experiences. I would need further story developments to convince me, but I don't think it'd be offputting or story ruining for it to happen. Canonical trans characters can be rare so it'd be kinda neat to see one even if I don't think it's happening here

I won't get in an argument just say:.That diagram doesn't have a source, it's a random diagram from hell's knows where. It's not useful
Otokonoko is about boys, that's what it's said in the wiki from where this diagram cames from, is what authors say, and while it intersects with trans culture, Otokonokoe and their culture is not trans.
Otokonoko is =boy.
Also, it would not be more transgressive for Kitano to be trans, this would just make them a girl. It ruins the gender non conformity and homosexual transgression of their love

 

[Jhonathan45]

Everyone feels depressed when they can't do something they like.
This is like saying "a trans woman who likes contact sports isn't a woman, because sports are a masculine activity"

Depends.

Do you feel depressed over not being able to wear them and wants to wear them 24/7?

 

[Jhonathan45]

There was indeed a period of time in my life where that was the case, and I always prefer to look feminine. I’m still a dude.

There's nothing wrong or weird about feeling over the fact you can't do something you like. Clothes do not define gender.

 

[Jhonathan45]

First, with regards to what is said in Chapter 3, I think you're being really disingenuous with what actually happens. Kitano describing herself as a boy isn't happening in a vacuum, it's happening specifically in the broader context of Kitano trying to determine Girly's feelings with regard to her viability as a romantic option. She explicitly talks about how Girly is focused on finding "The [Cis] Girl" hiding in the class and how she feels like implicitly that prevents her from being a real consideration. She then tests the waters by asking if a "guy" is out of the question, pointing out how a "guy" can still do a lot of the things Girly would reasonably expect to want to do with a girl. That reads far less to me as an attestation to her gender identity and more as her frankly trying to see if Girly could ever be interested in someone assigned male at birth.

Second, if you actually think Hibari isn't trans then I don't think there's any point in talking further with you. The word "transgender" may not have been used on the page, but Hibari insists she's a girl the entire series. She expresses the desire to have a more feminine body (Chapter 6, for example). She is literally enrolled at school as a girl, and preventing anyone from finding out her assigned gender at birth is an important part of multiple gags throughout the series. Other characters, most notably Kosaku, insist at times that she's a guy, but whenever someone does, they are consistently the butt of the joke. As I said before, him getting over his shit and allowing himself to see her as a girl and therefore resolve the conflict he's feeling over being attracted to her is the primary driver of the narrative. I already know you're going to take umbrage when I say this, but I genuinely don't care what Eguchi has to say. Whether it was his intention or not, whether he calls it that or not, he wrote a trans character. For a character from the early 80s, Hibari is as textually trans as you could reasonably expect any character to be.

Third, I think you misunderstood the point I was making when I referenced SHK as a comparison to Girly Debut. When you say "The love Kitano has for Girly is already viable", that's not actually what I was talking about at all. I agree with you in the sense that Kitano isn't the one who needs to do anything to make any sort of romantic attraction clear; rather, I pretty specifically talked about how Girly - just like Kosaku from SHK - is the one who needs to change the way he's looking at Kitano. He even partially does so in ch2, allowing himself to acknowledge that his 'heart did beat' ie he was able to feel some sort of attraction implicitly due to Kitano's perceived femininity regardless of her assigned gender at birth.

Fourth, again, I completely disagree with you that it would be weird if one (or all) of the characters in Girly's class were revealed to be trans. I'm genuinely asking, what do you think the whole point of the hook "there's only one [cis] girl in this class" actually is? Where do you think it's going to go? Are we just going to keep meeting more characters in the class, learning about them (i.e. their assigned gender at birth) and then Girly will magically automatically end up together with The Girl just by process of elimination? It would be trivial to have that just be a red herring, to have The Girl show up and ultimately not be someone Girly can see himself being interested in and force him to realize he ignored other romantic options because of his fixation. That would resonate just as strongly with the idea of having to get to know the girls first and would be just as much of an opportunity for Girly to grow, wouldn't you agree?

Also what are you even talking about when you imply that Kitano being trans would somehow take away from the story? Are you trying to suggest that there's no struggle or conflict for Kitano to have to deal with if she's trans versus if she's just a GNC boy? Do you think her romantic attraction to Girly - nominally cishet - is any less transgressive if she's a trans girl versus if she's a boy?

First: Kitano is trying to see if Girly could like a Boy, his issue isn't exclusively related to his biological body, but to his whole being, gender and sex. What Kitano wants to know is if Girly could come to see his male friend as a potential romantic partner.

Second: Transgender characters already existed in the world of manga during the time of Hibari, there's a trans character in Stop! Hibari-kun, and he mentions that he takes hormones and is undergoing gender reassignment surgery in the future. Eguchi wasn't ignorant or bound by any sort of restrictions. So much that Weekly Shonen Jump, the magazine in which Stop! Hibari-kun was released had a trans female characters in it's pages, Maria From Kochikame, and she's textually trans.
Hibari is a character who likes to wear cute clothes and for that he needs to identify as a girl publicly. Hibari never shows interest in being a girl, he only ever show interest in expressing as one, and his expression isn't even limited to looking like girls, Hibari cosplays a famous male rock singer of his time, who was known for his androgynous style.
Eguchi call Hibari a boy knowing that he's a boy, not because he's misguided or anything like that

Third: This is supposed to show that Girly sexuality isn't as strict and rigid as he thought. This scene is meant to show that sexuality is fluid, just like gender expression and norms.


Fourth: I don't agree. I believe that there could be drama and conflict in a trans story, but I don't believe it fits the narrative here.
If all the characters are girls, them there's no hook. Not only would this make the work too repetitive, it would take away from the charm of this being a subversion of the "guy in all girl's school" trope.
The focus of the story is Girly and the other boys slowly understanding that feminity is a social construct, that the differences in between them and girls comes from abstract social constructions that they can dismantle, in this way allowing them to properly see the female student as an individual equal to them.
The point is that the sex and gender of the only Girl won't matter by the end of the story, Girly and the boys will just want to meet and bond with her because they're a classmate.
Girly ending with Kitano as a boy reinforces this. Girly doesn't need to love a woman, he doesn't need to be straight, the world is vast and he doesn't need to be limited by the impositions of others. In the same way Kitano showed him that being a boy who likes to read isn't weird, he would be the one to show Girly that he doesn't need to have a girlfriend to be a boy or live a fulfilling life, Girly can find love in the same gender, because love isn't limited by social constructs.

I think an important thing to note is that when trans people refer to and are spoken of by others in Japan it’s treated differently culturally. In the West, “trans women = women, don’t refer to them as former men” and vice versa with trans men dominates the conversation, but I’ve seen a lot of trans people in Japan freely refer to themselves as “former men” and use other such language.

Using a western frame of reference to confirm or deny a character’s transness doesn’t really work because the language they use for them isn’t the same. There’s quite literally a trans woman autobiographical manga on this website that is TITLED “The Bride Used to be a Man”.

Generally speaking when a character or person is trans, from what I’ve seen anyways, phrasing like “the heart of a man/woman” or something to that effect specifically will come up a lot. In the west it’s like “I am literally and physically a woman” for the purposes of self-affirmation and confidence, and in Japan it’s “spiritually I am a woman, though my body is male and I won’t deny that.”

As it stands, to me anyways, Kitano hasn’t said anything of the like and only confirmed that he likes and always wanted to wear female clothing. I get trans vibes but I don’t take this as confirmation — it’s fine to want to express yourself with feminine clothing and not identify that way! That doesn’t have to mean you are trans. Right now I’m just keeping my eyes open.

I'm not using western frames

 

[Playerbase]

Everyone feels depressed when they can't do something they like.
This is like saying "a trans woman who likes contact sports isn't a woman, because sports are a masculine activity"

I’m not saying that necessary makes someone trans. But in reality there’s no crossdressers (at least to my knowledge) who would want to female presenting 24/7 and feels bad for not being able to.

Like yeah, they could still be a crossdresser but can you really say for certain that that’s the only possibility? And from what I’ve seen people especially those otokonoko fans really like to shut down trans interpretations, when such interpretations are just as valid as crossdresser interpretations.

 

[DaFatGuy]

I’m not saying that necessary makes someone trans. But in reality there’s no crossdressers (at least to my knowledge) who would want to female presenting 24/7 and feels bad for not being able to.

Like yeah, they could still be a crossdresser but can you really say for certain that that’s the only possibility? And from what I’ve seen people especially those otokonoko fans really like to shut down trans interpretations, when such interpretations are just as valid as crossdresser interpretations.

I unironically see a lot more of the opposite, where people claim “TRANS IS CANON” when it literally is not, and then call you transphobic for pointing out cross dressing is an equally valid interpretation. I always make sure to state “they very well could be trans” and I still get these reactions if I ever get into these discussions.

 

[Playerbase]

I unironically see a lot more of the opposite, where people claim “TRANS IS CANON” when it literally is not, and then call you transphobic for pointing out cross dressing is an equally valid interpretation. I always make sure to state “they very well could be trans” and I still get these reactions if I ever get into these discussions.

There are nuts in every community. Idk what you’ve seen but if it’s just like what you said then yeah those people are dumb too.

 

[Dragon5eye]

If you look on the Japanese wikipedia for 男の娘 you actually get differing definitions of the word otoko no ko, some of which include both femboys and trans people. It is not a unanimous definition of [assigned male]+[indentifies as a man]+[has a feminine appearance]. It's probably more accurate to think of otoko no ko as a subculture that can cover a few different kinds of people with similar experiences (some of which who identify differently).

Here's a diagram from that same wiki page:

The source for this diagram is the page itself: It's reflective of the context of the wiki article (i.e. comes right after a section of differing definitions of the concept). It gets further used a couple times in regard to Bridget Guilty Gear, both to how he shifted a lot of perception of the word in 2002:

And how she shifted to a different part of the conceptual area in Strive.

Also, in regard to responding to this troll; I don't think he or anyone else so vocal about their discomfort with trans women being connected to the things they like is going to take this kinda information in good faith (as evidenced by his response). They will just reply with whatever they think will discredit what you've provided so that they can keep on believing what they already do.

But other people might find this information helpful or enlightening, especially if there's a link that they can reference themselves. A transphobe will cherry-pick the information on the page that agrees with them; but more earnest otoko no ko enthusiasts will see the page itself shows a variety of thought on the word and an interesting history.

Anyways, I don't got much more else I want to add here at this point, but this manga is p funny. The art is so expressive and lovely, the plot is absolutely wild, and the characters are wonderful. June's over, but I hope everyone had a happy pride ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜

 

[Jhonathan45]

I’m not saying that necessary makes someone trans. But in reality there’s no crossdressers (at least to my knowledge) who would want to female presenting 24/7 and feels bad for not being able to.

Like yeah, they could still be a crossdresser but can you really say for certain that that’s the only possibility? And from what I’ve seen people especially those otokonoko fans really like to shut down trans interpretations, when such interpretations are just as valid as crossdresser interpretations.

You not knowing someone or something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Clothes doesn't define one's gender. While I see that you don't have any sort of malice or ill will, I believe that it's not correct to doubt one's identity because of their tastes and interests.

The interpretations are valid, what annoys people is how those opinions are followed by toxic discourse and denial of divergence. No one likes to be called bigoted for enjoying a feminine male character as a boy, same way no one wants their trans interpretation to be denied.
This is just a consequence of cultural wars.

 

[Jhonathan45]

The source for this diagram is the page itself: It's reflective of the context of the wiki article (i.e. comes right after a section of differing definitions of the concept). It gets further used a couple times in regard to Bridget Guilty Gear, both to how he shifted a lot of perception of the word in 2002:

And how she shifted to a different part of the conceptual area in Strive.

Also, in regard to responding to this troll; I don't think he or anyone else so vocal about their discomfort with trans women being connected to the things they like is going to take this kinda information in good faith (as evidenced by his response). They will just reply with whatever they think will discredit what you've provided so that they can keep on believing what they already do.

But other people might find this information helpful or enlightening, especially if there's a link that they can reference themselves. A transphobe will cherry-pick the information on the page that agrees with them; but more earnest otoko no ko enthusiasts will see the page itself shows a variety of thought on the word and an interesting history.

Anyways, I don't got much more else I want to add here at this point, but this manga is p funny. The art is so expressive and lovely, the plot is absolutely wild, and the characters are wonderful. June's over, but I hope everyone had a happy pride ❤️🧡💛💚💙💜

The source isn't in the wiki, that's exactly the issue.


I'm an Otokonoko enthusiast that's why I argue in the way I do. It just feels that you want Otokonoko to be related to transsexuality, which is not an issue in itself, but it doesn't helps neither side or is supported by them. In japan is quite easy to find individuals on both sides talking about the differences in between the two groups and separating them.
Also, something tells me you're not reading the whole wiki and just picking what interests you.

I'm not transphobic, actually I support their fight and sympathize with the problems they face, I just don't like when people start saying that Otokonoko and crossdressing characters need to be trans or that this is the "most obvious and natural way" of seeing them.
I part of my issue are pettiness too. Like, I really like the way stories like Girly Debut deal with homosexuality and love in between boys, it annoys me to no end when people treat it as het or deny the masculinity of the feminine character

 

[DBraymz]

First: Kitano is trying to see if Girly could like a Boy, his issue isn't exclusively related to his biological body, but to his whole being, gender and sex. What Kitano wants to know is if Girly could come to see his male friend as a potential romantic partner.

Second: Transgender characters already existed in the world of manga during the time of Hibari, there's a trans character in Stop! Hibari-kun, and he mentions that he takes hormones and is undergoing gender reassignment surgery in the future. Eguchi wasn't ignorant or bound by any sort of restrictions. So much that Weekly Shonen Jump, the magazine in which Stop! Hibari-kun was released had a trans female characters in it's pages, Maria From Kochikame, and she's textually trans.
Hibari is a character who likes to wear cute clothes and for that he needs to identify as a girl publicly. Hibari never shows interest in being a girl, he only ever show interest in expressing as one, and his expression isn't even limited to looking like girls, Hibari cosplays a famous male rock singer of his time, who was known for his androgynous style.
Eguchi call Hibari a boy knowing that he's a boy, not because he's misguided or anything like that

Third: This is supposed to show that Girly sexuality isn't as strict and rigid as he thought. This scene is meant to show that sexuality is fluid, just like gender expression and norms.


Fourth: I don't agree. I believe that there could be drama and conflict in a trans story, but I don't believe it fits the narrative here.
If all the characters are girls, them there's no hook. Not only would this make the work too repetitive, it would take away from the charm of this being a subversion of the "guy in all girl's school" trope.
The focus of the story is Girly and the other boys slowly understanding that feminity is a social construct, that the differences in between them and girls comes from abstract social constructions that they can dismantle, in this way allowing them to properly see the female student as an individual equal to them.
The point is that the sex and gender of the only Girl won't matter by the end of the story, Girly and the boys will just want to meet and bond with her because they're a classmate.
Girly ending with Kitano as a boy reinforces this. Girly doesn't need to love a woman, he doesn't need to be straight, the world is vast and he doesn't need to be limited by the impositions of others. In the same way Kitano showed him that being a boy who likes to read isn't weird, he would be the one to show Girly that he doesn't need to have a girlfriend to be a boy or live a fulfilling life, Girly can find love in the same gender, because love isn't limited by social constructs.

I'm not using western frames

First: Kitano is trying to see if Girly could like a Boy

I mean... I guess we're just agreeing to disagree? You haven't actually introduced anything new to the argument, just asserting that you're right. I fundamentally disagree with you regarding how that conversation is intended to be interpreted.

Second: Transgender characters already existed in the world of manga during the time of Hibari

Yes, that's true. Claude from "Claudine...!" in 1978 and - arguably - Sapphire from "Princess Knight" in 1953 if you really wanna make the argument, just to name a few.

...there's a character in Stop!! Hibari-kun and he mentions(...)

Assuming you're referring to Taiga, his reference to being on hormones was added in 2009/2010 when the Complete Edition came out. The character obviously still existed and I'm not arguing he should retroactively be seen as not trans at the time, but the specific reference was not contemporaneous.

Weekly Shonen Jump (...) had a trans female characters in it's pages, Maria From Kochikame

I do not read KochiKame, but as far as I can tell, Maria was not introduced in the manga until volume 67 (published in 1990), was not introduced in the anime until S1E39 (aired 1997), and did not transition - via MAGIC, not hormones - until volume 111 (published in 1998).

Hibari is a character who likes to wear cute clothes and for that he needs to identify as a girl publicly

Fundamentally, your argument is internally inconsistent: You cannot simultaneously argue that Hibari is obligated to identify as a girl publicly in order to present in a feminine manner publicly while also arguing that Kitano is necessarily still a boy while doing the same thing. Those positions are contradictory.

Hibari never shows interest in being a girl

This is just prima facie untrue. She quite explicitly expresses a desire to have breasts in Chapter 6, to give one example, which I already mentioned in a previous response. Her desire to protect being enrolled at school as a girl also supports this position, to say nothing of the rest of the manga. I have no desire to go chapter-by-chapter, though.

Eguchi wasn't ignorant or bound by any sort of restrictions

I'm sorry, but this is just a short-sighted argument at best. Eguchi was absolutely impacted by the cultural context of the time. You're implicitly making the claim that because Hibari doesn't mention being on hormones and another character does, that's a mark against her being trans. But it's hard enough for a 15/16 year old to get on hormones TODAY even in countries with an informed consent model like the USA, so why on Earth would we treat 1981~1983 Japan the same way? The argument just doesn't make sense. I did some - admittedly brief - research and it doesn't even look like gender-affirming surgeries were broadly legalized in Japan until 1997, more than 15 years after the manga ended! This line of reasoning just isn't compelling for your case.

I believe that there could be drama and conflict in a trans story, but I don't believe it fits the narrative here. If all the characters are girls, them there's no hook. Not only would this make the work too repetitive, it would take away from the charm of this being a subversion of the "guy in all girl's school" trope.

Again, I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree here. If you can't see how there's a story to be told about Girly blinding himself to a potential romance with Kitano (or anyone else!) because of the assumptions he's making about what his potential romantic partner needs to be like, then I'm not sure what else there is to say. Each of the other members of the class can easily provide a different perspective on femininity, gender, and romance to Girly; I have little doubt that they all have different reasons for presenting the way that they do, and it would be trivial to make each of their backstories or individual-focused arcs unique.

You come so close to acknowledging the point and then just completely veer off course right when the finish line is in sight. Girly having a warped view of what romance is supposed to look like due to the (admittedly well-meaning) influence of his father inadvertently makes his romantic life harder by leading him to make massive assumptions, and meeting people from all sorts of backgrounds will help break down those assumptions. That's the way life work and is a good lesson to convey to virtually any audience. The Only (Cis) Girl In The Class can just be a red herring - assuming that he simply must date her precisely because she's (theoretically) the only cis girl is short-sighted and foolish.

You're right in saying "love ISN'T bound by social constructs" but that needs to also include the construct of "what a woman is supposed to look like".