I Don't Understand Shirogane-san's Facial Expression at All - Vol. 3 Ch. 18

[BuyVelomobiles]

the talks in the third person is because girls don't really have a casual way of saying I.

Both sexes have watashi, which is proper formal. Then boys get Boku and Ore, which is casual and super casual.

Best girls get is Atashi which is just short for Watashi. So if you want to address yourself super casually they call themselves by name. It's why the most bubbly girls do this. It is considered childish though.

”Atashi” is the casual way of saying "I". "Boku" and "Ore" are not more or less casual, but rather used by boys and men respectively to refer to themselves. You start with "boku" if you're a boy/tomboy, then more on to "Ore" to sound more manly.

I know, it's just that the 3rd person talk doesn't translate to English because to an English speaker someone speaking in the 3rd person either sounds incredibly full of yourself or extremely idiotic.

I said this in another series that had a secondary character that spoke in the 3rd person and it still stands: I know that it's supposed to make the character cute, but for me it just makes them sound deficient.

Agreed. In English it sounds like they have a split personality. I wish tls would just swap it to "I".

Sadly, I'm just here to tell you what they say, not re-write the script. It does seem weird in English that she speaks in the third person, but that's how it is.

Well, they kind of are, informally. Though the context of what little we see in the manga is insufficient to determine exactly how close they are. But from what we've seen, while her being angry is understandable, it's not the correct response. Talking about it, however, is correct. Talking is almost always correct, as long as it's done respectfully.

Where I live, there's no real line you cross from friends to dating, as it's all gradual and depends a lot on the individuals, so I can sort of see her point of view, but they're not living in my culture.

They're definitely in the courting phase, and he's looking quite a bit like a playboy in context. He's yet to formally confess, so they're not officially dating yet, but that's just a matter of time.

 

[Darkshade13]

Sadly, I'm just here to tell you what they say, not re-write the script. It does seem weird in English that she speaks in the third person, but that's how it is.

I'm of the mind that the greater goal of translation is understanding of the intent/context of the work over literal equivalents of words and structure. Like if someone uses a Japanese idiom you could translate it word for word and then include a lengthy author's note explaining its meaning and possibly citing an English equivalent, or you could just swap it for the English equivalent so it's immediately clear what the character is trying to say.

Like if a character says "not knowing is Buddha" you can have him say that and then explain that it's meant to convey the idea that not thinking about a negative thing or its consequences allow you to remain upbeat and avoid anxiety or worry. Or you can just swap it out for "ignorance is bliss" which is functionally the same meaning and familiar to the English audience. Both idioms mean the same thing, but the Japanese one won't be familiar to an English audience just as the English one wouldn't be familiar to the Japanese. The only reason to keep the Japanese one and explain the meaning separately would be if its presence informs some other wordplay, discussion, or gag that would be lost in the change (like there's an image of a buddha statue that makes no sense if you don't understand the Japanese turn of phrase makes reference to it)

Or in a situation like this where the literal translation conveys a different meaning (speaking in the 3rd person in Japanese = cute, youthful, and immature as a cover for the complexity of Japanese pronouns. Speaking in the 3rd person in English = arrogant, self-absorbed, or mentally/linguistically challenged) and alters the audience perception of the material it might be best to make the change (swapping the 3rd person speech for a simple "I" and tweaking the dialogue as necessary to portray the character quirks in a more understandable way)

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

I'm of the mind that the greater goal of translation is understanding of the intent/context of the work over literal equivalents of words and structure. Like if someone uses a Japanese idiom you could translate it word for word and then include a lengthy author's note explaining its meaning and possibly citing an English equivalent, or you could just swap it for the English equivalent so it's immediately clear what the character is trying to say.

Like if a character says "not knowing is Buddha" you can have him say that and then explain that it's meant to convey the idea that not thinking about a negative thing or its consequences allow you to remain upbeat and avoid anxiety or worry. Or you can just swap it out for "ignorance is bliss" which is functionally the same meaning and familiar to the English audience. Both idioms mean the same thing, but the Japanese one won't be familiar to an English audience just as the English one wouldn't be familiar to the Japanese. The only reason to keep the Japanese one and explain the meaning separately would be if its presence informs some other wordplay, discussion, or gag that would be lost in the change (like there's an image of a buddha statue that makes no sense if you don't understand the Japanese turn of phrase makes reference to it)

Or in a situation like this where the literal translation conveys a different meaning (speaking in the 3rd person in Japanese = cute, youthful, and immature as a cover for the complexity of Japanese pronouns. Speaking in the 3rd person in English = arrogant, self-absorbed, or mentally/linguistically challenged) and alters the audience perception of the material it might be best to make the change (swapping the 3rd person speech for a simple "I" and tweaking the dialogue as necessary to portray the character quirks in a more understandable way)

Ultimately people come to read Manga because they want to be exposed to a new culture, with its own idioms, mannerisms, and ideas. Once you start swapping out clear cultural indicators for some crude equivalent in another language, you've opened the door to rewriting the entire story and denying the readers the bit of culture clash they came for; not only do you fail to capture the full meaning of what's being said, but you take away something the audience specifically came for. I'd like to think that when you see something a bit weird in your stories, you stop to remember that these are fundamentally different people with their own unique background and context.

Now, there are ways to handle it, and they can actually work out really well (Spoilers: Chapter 22 of Pocha Musume). But ultimately, the author already decided precisely what he wanted the characters to say, how they say it, and the audience are interested in hearing/seeing that as closely as is possible, considering the barriers that exist between two foreign nations.

TL;DR: If they say a thing, I'm obliged to leave it in. If we have a way or saying what they say (e.g. 本末転倒=Putting the cart before the horse), then neat. If not, you're going to have to remember it's Japan, and hope I can help you understand.

 

[Darkshade13]

Ultimately people come to read Manga because they want to be exposed to a new culture, with its own idiots, mannerisms, and ideas. Once you start swapping out clear cultural indicators for some crude equivalent in another language, you've opened the door to rewriting the entire story and denying the readers the bit of culture clash they came for; not only do you fail to capture the full meaning of what's being said, but you take away something the audience specifically came for. I'd like to think that when you see something a bit weird in your stories, you stop to remember that these are fundamentally different people with their own unique background and context.

Now, there are ways to handle it, and they can actually work out really well (Spoilers: Chapter 22 of Pocha Musume). But ultimately, the author already decided precisely what he wanted the characters to say, how they say it, and the audience are interested in hearing/seeing that as closely as is possible, considering the barriers that exist between two foreign nations.

TL;DR: If they say a thing, I'm obliged to leave it in. If we have a way or saying what they say (e.g. 本末転倒=Putting the cart before the horse), then neat. If not, you're going to have to remember it's Japan, and hope I can help you understand.

You're not erasing the culture. Because the point isn't removing all cultural differences, it's about putting them in terms that the audience can understand to deliver the meaning and intent that the author wanted. It's not like I'm talking about going back to pre-90s Anime conventions where names are changed and shows are rewritten to the point of being a new show where everyone lives in New York and eats jelly dougnuts. It's just taking things that have clear, equivalent counterparts in other langauges and using those to help convey the context and intent the author was portraying. Because it's not like a Japanese author uses Japanese idioms specifically to demonstrate the particulars of their culture and language. They use them to portray a concept in terms that they are familiar with. The fact that idioms exist in different cultures to explain the same concept is not indicative of cultural disparity and unique viewpoints. Rather it's an example of how similar cultures are and how translatable those ideas are.

This idea that meaning is automatically lost through translation is also we get nonsense like angry weeb fans screeching that "nakama" has some deep, significant, untranslatable meaning like "a group of people bound together by fate and similarity that are like a family even though they aren't related by blood." that English just can't portray correctly when the reality is that it means "comrades", "companions", "friends", or "teammates" or something to that effect and whether it has layered depth on it is just as variable in the original Japanese as it is in English.

I would also argue that believing the audience is here specifically for culture clash and variances is a bit presumptive. Lots of people read manga because they like the stories and the reality is that they are often far more universally translatable than they are believed to be. This idea that manga series fundamentally portray something unique and not understandable to foreign audiences is itself a misconception evidenced by manga authors who express shock that their works have any relevance or interest outside of Japan because they believed the concepts portrayed to be uniquely Japanese.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

You're not erasing the culture. Because the point isn't removing all cultural differences, it's about putting them in terms that the audience can understand to deliver the meaning and intent that the author wanted. It's not like I'm talking about going back to pre-90s Anime conventions where names are changed and shows are rewritten to the point of being a new show where everyone lives in New York and eats jelly dougnuts. It's just taking things that have clear, equivalent counterparts in other langauges and using those to help convey the context and intent the author was portraying. Because it's not like a Japanese author uses Japanese idioms specifically to demonstrate the particulars of their culture and language. They use them to portray a concept in terms that they are familiar with. The fact that idioms exist in different cultures to explain the same concept is not indicative of cultural disparity and unique viewpoints. Rather it's an example of how similar cultures are and how translatable those ideas are.

This idea that meaning is automatically lost through translation is also we get nonsense like angry weeb fans screeching that "nakama" has some deep, significant, untranslatable meaning like "a group of people bound together by fate and similarity that are like a family even though they aren't related by blood." that English just can't portray correctly when the reality is that it means "comrades", "companions", "friends", or "teammates" or something to that effect and whether it has layered depth on it is just as variable in the original Japanese as it is in English.

I would also argue that believing the audience is here specifically for culture clash and variances is a bit presumptive. Lots of people read manga because they like the stories and the reality is that they are often far more universally translatable than they are believed to be. This idea that manga series fundamentally portray something unique and not understandable to foreign audiences is itself a misconception evidenced by manga authors who express shock that their works have any relevance or interest outside of Japan because they believed the concepts portrayed to be uniquely Japanese.

If you think the audience isn't interested in the culture clash, that meaning isn't automatically lost through translation, and that dialogue can be re-written to somehow better convey the message the author has put into his work, then we'll have to agree to disagree, because it doesn't look like we have any common ground.

 

[Pandacron]

It's a faux pas to enter a thread just to join an off-topic argument, but at the risk of prolonging it, I just want to add my two cents: If you were having to communicate through an interpreter, I'm pretty sure you would want what you said to be communicated in a way that can be intuitively understood instead of "oh, they made an English noise" followed by a lengthy explanation of where "yo" comes from. The goal of translation is to convey meaning, not a foreign language lesson. The pie-in-the-sky ideal is to be an unnoticeable middleman. Rendering a common manner of speaking in a way that sounds unnatural to the reader adds a trait to the character they did not have before. The reader will now assume that this highschool girl is a weirdo who talks like a cartoon caveman, not become educated on how Japanese female personal pronouns work.

I'm not going to ask you to change your translation or anything, I'm not the boss of you, but that is generally how it works. 9 times out of 10, leaving incomprensible things in a translation for "culture" reasons will either confuse or distance the audience. At best it's stilted, at worst it's "keikaku means plan".