Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi o Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 42 - The Uprising of the Nosey Girls

[GennArc]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. That Aya doesn't think of this period of dawn as "heavenly" or that Aya doesn't think of Hikari as "heavenly" in contrast to the dawn? Which I'm calling it dawn b/c this is what Aya worked for, to bring the dark period to an end.

Your argument is that she thinks of a period with Yuu as heavenly because it was a contrast with a dark time she had.
The dark time ended and got replaced by the time with Hikari. So the contrast should still apply (the darkness only just ended). However, it's not heavenly, it's merely "relatively easy".

She considers Hikari her savior, so I don't think Aya thinks that way

I am talking about a hypothetical scenario where her mom didn't attempt suicide and she didn't break up with Yuu, which made her lose all the will to bring back her normal life. She considers Hikari her savior because that latter part happened and Hikari was there to help.

Aya already admitted she loves Yuu by kissing him maybe because Hikari is there.

Admitted to whom? I am talking about admitting it to Hikari. And Yami is trying to play it off by saying "he is one of the playthings I used to have".

If she had really ghosted him just b/c she didn't want to burden him w/ family stuff, then it should be impossible to break her resolve b/c the material conditions of her caregiving responsibilities don't change if he comes back.

She clearly ghosted him because she decided to, not because it was something she wished for, and of course deep inside she hoped for a miracle that he would still find a way to reach her. People hope for miracles not for rational reasons, but simply because it's something they truly wish for. And it can't be impossible to break her resolve because she is doing something against her own wishes:

The notification sound jolted me, and a new message appeared on the screen.

Of course.
I opened his messages, he could see I read them.

I really am hopeless, aren't I?
I swore I wouldn't contact him, but here I am.

[ Yuu: Hey, it's already started, but... want to watch the fireworks together? ]

[ Yuu: It doesn't have to be the fireworks, or even today. Just... contact me, please. ]

As if he could see straight through my regrets, Yuu's messages kept coming.

Stop it. Stop it, Yuu...

Don't try to shake my resolve.
Don't try to undo the decision I worked so hard to make.

[ Yuu: Is something wrong? Did I do something? ]

Ayami: "---!"

 

[story645]

So the contrast should still apply (the darkness only just ended).

When Aya meets Hikari, the darkness has been over for a month - the stepfather is gone and her parents aren't violently fighting with each other - and her mother has stabilized enough that Aya's s going back to school. That's a huge difference. I've only experienced the violent fights/no-fights shift (& thankfully not the creepy step) and even that's a major "don't have to go hide & block out noise" changes the whole energy of the house difference. Which Aya labeling this calmness "relatively easy" comes months into the stability holding.

She considers Hikari her savior because that latter part happened and Hikari was there to help.

More than that, Hikari was persistent in persuing Aya's friendship even when Aya ran away literally and then metaphorically with the prank.

Admitted to whom? I am talking about admitting it to Hikari. And Yami is trying to play it off by saying "he is one of the playthings I used to have".

Meant it more as Aya Aya knows Hikari knows b/c of the kiss - that Aya's informally already admitted it:

Even if Hikari already knew.
Even if she saw through everything from the start…

Throughout 41, Hikari is holding fast to two things: Yuu had feelings for Aya and Aya still loves Yuu. So what you're reading as Aya "playing off" is me reading Aya as trying to make Aya feel better about being rejected. Because Aya thinks Yuu rejected her:

Because I don’t want to lose Hikari too…

and of course deep inside she hoped for a miracle that he would still find a way to reach her.

At which point she would be right back at making the same choice of whether to burden him w/ her family stuff or not.

 

[GennArc]

When Aya meets Hikari, the darkness has been over for a month - the stepfather is gone and her parents aren't violently fighting with each other - and her mother has stabilized enough that Aya's s going back to school. That's a huge difference.

When she met Yuu, she hadn't even been home for months, so she wasn't really affected. And when she meets Hikari, she just lost her love and her mother is lashing out at her every day, even though she just sacrificed her own happiness for her sake. Yeah, I think the contrast still applies at full power.

More than that, Hikari was persistent in persuing Aya's friendship even when Aya ran away literally and then metaphorically with the prank.

Sure. My point was about something else though.

Meant it more as Aya Aya knows Hikari knows b/c of the kiss - that Aya's informally already admitted it:

Hikari knows not because of the kiss, but because it's Yuu and because it's Yami. She knows Yuu wouldn't just do it with some random girl. She knows Yami isn't really that type of a girl, despite her stories. And that's how she was cornering Yami - by not letting her write it off as just a one-night stand.

So what you're reading as Aya "playing off" is me reading Aya as trying to make Aya feel better about being rejected. Because Aya thinks Yuu rejected her

Oh, the hidden agenda again. Honestly, don't want to go into this. There is the most obvious interpretation of the quote you give, yet because it's Yami, it surely has to be something else.
Edit: you like meta arguments, right? How about this: in that whole chapter, Hikari kept cornering Yami by telling the truth about her, right? Every sentence of hers was correct. And this is what she says about Yami's motivation

Even if she saw through everything from the start…

Hikari: “You’re lying for my sake, right? So I don’t get hurt… you’re covering up what really happened between you and him.”
Yami: “I’m not covering anything… He’s nothing special. Just a lame guy, that’s all.”

So, was this the single instance in the chapter where she was wrong?

At which point she would be right back at making the same choice of whether to burden him w/ her family stuff or not.

Yeah. When 'impossible' things actually happen, all the reasoning from before might no longer matter.

 

[story645]

When she met Yuu, she hadn't even been home for months, so she wasn't really affected.

She was functionally homeless, blowing through what friendships she had left, and was in a desperate enough state to consider sugar dating.

Which is why this was my only choice.

There's this app on my phone... Yeah, let's not sugarcoat it -- it's a compensated dating app.

And as of 27, she's back at home when she's dating Yuu. There's a world of difference in the instability in her life right before and while dating Yuu, wherein he's the only stable thing in her life, and the stability in her life when Hikari & co come into it.

And that's how she was cornering Yami - by not letting her write it off as just a one-night stand.

Hikari was mostly focused on Yami admitting Yami still loves Yuu, which I took the kiss as the admission of ongoing feelings.

There is the most obvious interpretation of the quote you give, yet because it's Yami, surely has to be something else.

Obvious to you is not the same as obvious to me. I don't think "Yami telling herself the relationship with Yuu wasn't that deep" is 15 dimensional chess - I think it's inline w/ Yami keeping. him at arms length by pretending to be carefree and Yami being mad he didn't go look for her and Yami thinking Yuu lets go when it really matters.

Hikari: “You’re lying for my sake, right? So I don’t get hurt… you’re covering up what really happened between you and him.”
Yami: “I’m not covering anything… He’s nothing special. Just a lame guy, that’s all.”

Both can be true? Aya is trying to tell Hikari and Aya that the relationship wasn't that serious - both to make Hikari feel better & to make Aya feel better.

Look at what Hikari pushes back on with a firm denial - that there were no feelings between Yuu and Aya, that Aya's feelings don't still exist. What Hikari doesn't push back on is the bait:

Even so—
I had no choice but to keep lying.

Yami: “I mean, come on… the only reason you fell for him in the first place was because he got better in bed after sleeping with me, right?”
Hikari: “Wh—?!”

Even if it meant demeaning
the first boy she ever truly loved,
the one she gave her whole heart and body to.

Even if shame and disgust
shook me to my very core…

Yami: “If he’d stayed the clueless virgin he was, you never would’ve even looked his way. He would’ve stayed just some loser.”

But still… I was wrong.
Everything I did—was a mistake.

Yami: “You should be thanking me, honestly…”
Hikari: “Don’t talk down about my childhood friend like that!”

Hikari doesn't even bother w/ denying these allegations which both Aya and her know is a lie/cope - she just says to not insult Yuu that way.

Which I think I was unclear earlier, what I'm on about is that I think Aya is doing this mix of lie that's also cope throughout 41, and that's what Hikari is calling out. Does Aya really think the relationship was shallow? No. Does it make for better cope? Yes

When 'impossible' things actually happen, all the reasoning from before might no longer matter.

That's still a test. If Yuu defies the impossible and chases her, then he has the resolve to deal w/ her burden.

 

[GennArc]

And as of 27, she's back at home when she's dating Yuu. There's a world of difference in the instability in her life right before and while dating Yuu, wherein he's the only stable thing in her life, and the stability in her life when Hikari & co come into it.

I don't think all people measure happiness in stability. When she met Yuu, she was desperate, but the really awful things happened pretty long ago. When she met Hikari, she just had two tragic things happen to her less than a month before. The amount of people she was close to? Zero in both cases.

Hikari was mostly focused on Yami admitting Yami still loves Yuu, which I took the kiss as the admission of ongoing feelings.

No, that's just at the end of their conversation. Before she was mostly talking about their past relationship.

Obvious to you is not the same as obvious to me.

Sure. What comes to mind first when Yami says "I lost Yuu"? When was it that she "had" him and then "lost" him?

I don't think "Yami telling herself the relationship with Yuu wasn't that deep" is 15 dimensional chess

At no point she is telling that to herself.

Both can be true?

Yeah, that's why I didn't want to go into this.

Hikari doesn't even bother w/ denying these allegations which both Aya and her know is a lie/cope - she just says to not insult Yuu that way.

No, I think that is partly true. Not the virginity part of course, but that Hikari wouldn't have noticed him if he hadn't gone through that relationship with Yami.

That's still a test. If Yuu defies the impossible and chases her, then he has the resolve to deal w/ her burden.

A "test" is when it's intended. There was no such intention, and in ch. 30 you can see her mentally pleading Yuu not to shake her resolve.

 

[story645]

but the really awful things happened pretty long ago.

She was in the process of pimping herself out to avoid being homeless and during their relationship her parents were violently fighting in the background.

she just had two tragic things happen to her less than a month before.

So that's not ongoing & she still considers Hikari her savior.

Before she was mostly talking about their past relationship.

The aspect Hikari focuses on is that there were real feelings between them and there still are real feelings on Aya's part.

At no point she is telling that to herself.

I think the entirety of her "carefree" act & chapter 41 is Aya trying to play off the relationship as not that serious. Which Aya playing this game while they were dating is why I don't think this now is just for Hikari.

No, I think that is partly true. Not the virginity part of course, but that Hikari wouldn't notice him if he didn't go through that relationship with Yami.

Aya and Hikari don't believe Aya.

There was no such intention, and in ch. 30 you can see her mentally pleading Yuu not to shake her resolve

And in the crash out in 40 she expresses hurt that he didn't break her resolve. So which are we supposed to believe? I think in 30 she's desperately holding onto her justification for ghosting him, by 40 it's been a year and she's gonna be honest with him.

 

[GennArc]

and during their relationship her parents were violently fighting in the background.

If her mother fighting with her stepfather over the divorce she wants to happen at the moment is a worse background than her mother going through the suicide attempt and lashing out at her every day + saying farewell to her love a month ago, then I don't think we can advance on this, because that's the opposite from how I perceive this situation.

I think the entirety of her "carefree" act & chapter 41 is Aya trying to play off the relationship as not that serious. Which Aya playing this game while they were dating is why I don't think this now is just for Hikari.

To Hikari - sure. To herself - no, there is more than enough evidence of the opposite actually, and I'm honestly surprised you're even suggesting that.

Aya and Hikari don't believe Aya.

Do they not? You are the one who noticed that Hikari debunked all Yami's lies except that one.

And in the crash out in 40 she expresses hurt that he didn't break her resolve. So which are we supposed to believe?

The first one is saying that seeing his worried messages is painful for her in the face of the unhappy decision she made, the second one is saying that she actually wished that he'd go to great lengths to reach her. Which one to believe? Both.

 

[story645]

is a worse background than her mother going through the suicide attempt and lashing out at her every day

In 27, Aya readily welcomes the distraction of Yuu. In 30, Aya thinks she's supposed to be miserable as punishment for her actions:

This life we're living... it's supposed to be a punishment. If I start feeling comfortable in it, then what's the point?

Which to go back a step:

I don't think all people measure happiness in stability

Aya kinda does:

Back then, I was stuck in a literal hell with no one to rely on, and now I go to school every day, I've got a stable life, and even a few friends.

To herself - no, there is more than enough evidence of the opposite actually, and I'm honestly surprised you're even suggesting that.

I think it's cope - not that she necessarily believes it, but that it'd make Yuu's inaction after the ghosting and Yuu's rejection here go down a lot easier if it were true.

Do they not?

Aya flat out thinks "I had no choice but to keep lying" before launching into this rant. This block ends w/ Hikari explicitly saying

Hikari’s face in front of me was a mess—
rage, sorrow, and confusion swirling together chaotically.

Hikari: “Just stop already… Stop lying like that. Stop hurting yourself, too…”

Which I think this section is like everything else in this chapter - cope that Aya kinda wants to be true. Which is why Hikari is telling her to stop hurting herself.

Which one to believe? Both.

Believing both means deep down the ghosting was a test to see if he'd put himself out there to break her resolve.

 

[GennArc]

Aya kinda does:

...and she also considers her time with Yuu heavenly.

I think it's cope - not that she necessarily believes it, but that it'd make Yuu's inaction after the ghosting and Yuu's rejection here go down a lot easier if it were true.

What cope? I really don't even understand what you're talking about. She is consistently thinking how precious that time is/was. I mean, in other branch of our conversation we're discussing how she is calling the time with Yuu heavenly.

Aya flat out thinks "I had no choice but to keep lying" before launching into this rant.

Which she continues by saying that Hikari fell for him because he got better in bed, which is a lie, yeah.

This block ends w/ Hikari explicitly saying

But not refuting the point she made, unlike all the previous ones.

cope that Aya kinda wants to be true

Funny, I remember you saying "she partly means it" in our previous discussions, and this time it's "cope".

Believing both means deep down the ghosting was a test to see if he'd put himself out there to break her resolve.

No, it doesn't, and I just explained why they aren't even related.

 

[story645]

...and she also considers her time with Yuu heavenly.

Yes, I don't disagree, I just think that her considering Yuu heavenly compared to the "literal hell" that came before contextualizises her feelings.

She is consistently thinking how precious that time is/was.

Yes, but if that time was a precoous fling it'd be easier to move on than if it was precious serious. That's what I mean by cope.

Which I think I've been fairly consistent that I think Aya kinda means it when she says Yuu wasn't serious about her, but that Aya is playing off that she isn't/wasn't serious about Yuu as a defense mechanism.

But not refuting the point she made, unlike all the previous ones.

Here the rebuttal is "don't demean Yuu", which is the core thing Aya is doing:

Even if it meant demeaning
the first boy she ever truly loved,
the one she gave her whole heart and body to.

Hikari's just focusing entirely on Yuu and Aya in her rebuttles; despite Hikari being the injured party here, Hikari is very much not making the fight in 41 about herself.

they aren't even related.

I think Maruto isn't gonna bring up something again in a crash out in 41 if it wasn't to reframe the original episode, b/c I think he's been doing a lot of reframe of earlier chapters throughout. I think structurally 39-40 are paired with 28-30 - the calm before the storm w/ a lot unsaid on Aya's part & Aya trying to keep up the act and then Aya unwinding/exploding.

 

[GennArc]

if that time was a precoous fling it'd be easier to move on than if it was precious serious

Let's see:
25.5:

Just because today...
Today has been the happiest day of my entire life.

29:

Even now, on the train, right after he ate his station bento, Yuu started snoozing.
But I just sat there, wide awake, letting him use my shoulder and staring at his sleeping face.

My neck is killing me from holding this awkward angle for so long.
But falling asleep alongside him would feel like such a waste.

This fleeting time, where I can feel his warmth, his weight, his scent...
It's so precious that I want it to last forever.
So I just hope Yuu keeps sleeping, for as long as possible.

30:

I'm Sudou Ayami. Turned seventeen years old today.

......and I just said goodbye to the person I love most in the world.

39:

Now, of all times, I start remembering the stories Hikari used to tell me about him.
And now that I know “him” was Yuu, all those stories replay in my head—
vivid and full of color, full of life.

That shy little smile of his is adorable.
The bashful tone and that fake-tough act are charming.
He acts aloof, kind of distant...
But in the end, he’s always kind.
And that kindness feels special.

-snip-

That’s why I…
Why I ended up loving both of them.

40:

Even though I was the one who treated him so horribly, so one-sidedly…
Why is it, why is it that all these intense feelings are bubbling up now?
Why do I find myself wanting to run to him and throw myself into his arms?

41:

Even if it meant demeaning
the first boy she ever truly loved,
the one she gave her whole heart and body to.

As a note here, it's 99% a mistranslation by MTL and it's actually talking about Yami, not Hikari, the original doesn't have any pronouns, and the only one of them who gave her body to Yuu is Yami

　たとえ、初めて好きになった男のコを。
　全身で愛したオトコを。
　貶めることになったとしても。

So, what were you saying about her not being serious about it?

I think Maruto isn't gonna bring up something again in a crash out in 41 if it wasn't to reframe the original episode

And what's supposed to be a reframe? When he is making those references, it's either through visuals (see chapter 1 vs 26) or through repeating thoughts or phrases. So where are the similarities?

 

[peortega1]

Do they not? You are the one who noticed that Hikari debunked all Yami's lies except that one.

IMO this is the point where Hikari realizes Yuu didn´t lie when he said he always loved her. This is the point when she realizes the meaning of the words of Yami. She is realizing Yami knew about her before her first meeting. She is realizing Yami HATED her before her first meeting. She is realizing Yuu told about his unreciprocated love for her to Yami and Yami hates her because the fear of Yami to the ghost of the first love of Yuu is reborn here, with this ghost more alive than ever. And she is this ghost.
Hikari knows Yami is saying here the truth. And starts to realize, as the noisy friends did later, why the attitude of Yami with her changed when she discovered the real name of Taa-kun was Yuu.

The first one is saying that seeing his worried messages is painful for her in the face of the unhappy decision she made, the second one is saying that she actually wished that he'd go to great lengths to reach her. Which one to believe? Both.

I´m agree, both. If the ghosting would be just a "test", Yami would have been in the places she knew Yuu could find her. And again, she is in the station when she meets Hikari is because she was forced to return to school, not because she is awarely waiting Yuu -even, if course, a part of her definitely wants he appears there-.
Fuck, she even could go to the Yuu school in one of her school absences or coming early as the noisy friends did and try to see if Yuu chosed go for her or would ignore her. And yes, as I said, I hold my theory Yuu really found Yami at least once in her school, but she hidded from him, like Setsuna did in the classroom when Kazusa ran away after kiss Haruki slept in White Album 2.
For that Yami said all that of her expecting Yuu would insist again and again and again... even if she knows this is not just unrational, is a madness who would make her act crueldly like she did with Hikari in relatively more light circumstances -the "heavy joke" with the pedophile-. This would fit with her mentality of "in both our hearts, we're about to carve some deep scars"

 

[story645]

So, what were you saying about her not being serious about it?

I didn't say that? I said that Yami is trying to cope w/ her heartbreak/rejection by trying to convince herself (& Hikari) it wasn't that serious. Lots of folks process failure by getting defensive/downplaying what they failed at & I think Aya is doing so in 41 b/c of the way she's tripling down long after Hikari has made it clear Hikari isn't buying it. ETA: also b/c Hikari is imploring Aya to stop hurting herself with the words Aya is saying.

and it's actually talking about Yami, not Hikari,

I know - I meant that Yami is thinking she's demeaning Yuu and Hikari pushes back "don't demean him" - Hikari is pushing back on the core rather then the bait about Hikari only liking Yuu b/c he's gotten laid.

And what's supposed to be a reframe?

For example: Chap 30's "I'd go anywhere if you reached out" w/ chapter 40's "always letting go of my hand", 30's "don't break my resolve" & 40's "why didn't you look for me", 29's deflection on family stuff with 40's "why can't you read the naunce" - I think we're getting back into rinse repeat/stalemate territory here since we've argued endlessly about the break up.

 

[peortega1]

I know - I meant that Yami is thinking she's demeaning Yuu and Hikari pushes back "don't demean him" - Hikari is pushing back on the core rather then the bait about Hikari only liking Yuu b/c he's gotten laid.

That doesn´t change the point of GennArc: Hikari here recognizes implicitily if without the change experimented by Yuu thanks to his relationship with Yami, she never would noticed him.
The point of Hikari is Yuu and Yami changed because it was a true love relationship -and it was-, not -just- because they fucked.
And as I said, this is the point Hikari realizes Yuu didn´t lie her about "I always loved you" after all.