Irony Dress ni Sayonara - Vol. 1 Ch. 5.5 - Extra

[MangaDex]

 

[mirewitch]

I'm torn on this manga, so I'm going to rant about it for a while.

I think the subject matter is interesting - there's a lot of people who mix up sexuality with gender. Iran's forcing gay men to transition jumps to mind, and in the other direction I've know people who think trans people are just confused gay folk. Its one of multiple reasons why gay and trans people work together politically in LGBT organizations - to teach people that the groups are separate but are both worthy of acceptance. I think this story does a reasonable job depicting the pain caused when forcing someone to be something they aren't, and has a positive message in which the person's real identity is accepted.

But I don't like the age difference. Like, I appreciate they took the age gap seriously throughout the story, and waited until graduation to have a sex scene. I guess that legally they're technically safe. But it still frustrated me. They meet when Meguru's 29 and Kei's like 16. Meguru's the only gay guy Kei knows, and acts as a sort of mentor for Kei. Kei's mother is treating Kei terribly, and Meguru's the only person he knows who actually supports him. All these factors combined mean a very big power disparity between Meguru and Kei. The fact that Kei would fall for Meguru is not surprising, but I hoped Meguru would be better than to reciprocate.

I want to make clear I'm not inherently against a long age gap, but I think both parties need to be fully consenting adults when the relationship starts, and shouldn't be in a mentor relationship. As a point of contrast I'll refer to Fusoroi no Renri. That story also has an age gap between a teen and a late 20 something, but in that story the teen is 18, finished school, and bar-tends the bar where they meet. As such there isn't the same power disparity we see in this story. Admittedly that story also makes me a little uncomfortable, since I don't think teens are fully mature in general, even if they're 18/19. I'm also not thrilled with how alcohol is involved at the start of that story. But it makes me far less uncomfortable than this story.

Overall I don't think the age gap ruins the story, but it comes close, which is a shame because I think the characters are good, and I like that they decided to discuss a difficult LGBT problem. I think they could have just made Meguru a freshman college student. The story would have mostly been the same, and there still would have been a bit of an age gap since Kei is 16, but it would have been far less worrisome.

Edit: Reread Fusoroi no Renri, and my opinion on it has shifted somewhat. I think my point about the age gap being handled better is still valid for most of the manga, but the involvement of alcohol in the opening chapter is questionable. I thought both of them were drunk when I first read it, but re-reading it only the older of the two is, which makes the fact that they have sex pretty scummy. Even if they both wanted it at the time, and end up in an actual relationship a few pages later, I still think its a shitty thing to have sex with someone that drunk. Even though it doesn't change my age gap argument, I felt I should include my concerns given I'm using it as a positive example.

 

[I_I_Hope_I_I]

@mirewitch My advice wen it comes to story's that contain "age gaps" is to focus more on the characters and less on the age (since usually it is a side focus)

I say this because their relationship wasnt specifically a "mentor" one per say. Kei found in Meguru, not only someone he can lern from (obviusly), but someone who understood him and supported him, despite Meguru admitting that it was nothing to do whit him (plus the whole fact that he already "liked" him because of the storys), while Meguru found in Kei a part of his life he never got to experience (like wen he states that he seems to be the one going trough puberty, kinda hinting on the fact that Meguru didn't get the chance to properly experience it, like many other gay people, and now that he fell in love for the first time because of a bold teen, he doesn't know how to handle it.), plus, Kei also finally helped Meguru come to terms whit his mother. So, while yes, Meguru did say he would answer any question Kei had about being gay, the focus on the story is on them finding a new self in each other, so labeling their relationship as a "mentor" one, for the simple fact that Meguru has more experience just doesn't feel right, specially wen the only thing we saw Kei ask Meguru was about sex (which clearly was because Kei already liked him at that point).

So yea, I dont say every manga is like this, but for this one I will say that the age aspect is just a side factor since there had to be a drama as for why they cant date just right away, since in this story both are gay and the feelings are mutual, so the author has to think of something to create that bit of drama to develop the characters.

 

[mirewitch]

@Cephalon_Hope I label the relationship as mentor/mentee because a big part of their initial interactions is Meguru explaining to Kei what being gay is like. I agree their relationship is other things as well, but that doesn't preclude Meguru being Kei's mentor in matters related to sexuality. Even ignoring the mentorship aspect though, Kei is 16. His brain is still developing. He's still in high school. He's supported by his mother. So while he might not feel like it, he is still a child in every way that matters. And the fact that the first two years of their relationship took place while Kei was a child casts all kinds of doubts on Kei's ability to give meaningful consent. Sure Meguru may have avoided legal issues by refusing to have sex with him before 18, but I still feel the relationship is dubious on a moral level.

As I said I don't think this ruins the manga. I agree it's a fairly minor element of the story mostly used to generate more drama. But that's my problem with a lot of manga - leveraging questionable relationship dynamics to create drama, but never bothering to consider how those dynamics affect real people. It makes the stories and characters feel inauthentic to me. And that is a shame, because I find many other aspects of this manga very relatable.

 

[I_I_Hope_I_I]

@mirewitch The thing is, that didn't happen, Meguru literally doesn't explain anything about what being gay is, their initial interactions was basically Meguru trying to understand wth was going on, and why Kei was using that uniform (its literally in the desc of the story), Kei obviously knows what being gay is, hell, he came out to his mother, he simply didn't had anyone that understood that he simply liked other guys (since his mother basically linked "linking guys = being a girl"), the only time we see Kei ask anything sexually related is wen he asks Meguru if he has had sex, which later on we can obviously see this action as him asking not because he doesn't know, but because he bloody likes the dude, Meguru simply saw this as him being curious obviously.

Now, if you wanna go whit realism, despite this obviously being a story only meant to introduce the topic of discussion and not to portrait it correctly , obviously, legally Kei could not give consent (even to the kiss) but it ends there, LEGALLY. from 16-17 to 18 you literally change nothing apart from being legally an adult, I knew the same wen I was 16, same for 17, 18 going trice and at 19, yep, still the same. My point is, the whole "is a kid" argument is only important wen we are talking about legality of actions, this does not affect the way a character thinks, its not like you change your views on stuff wen you turn 18.
In my opinion (and why I think you are still stuck to that weird "this doesn't feel right feeling"), we are simply "brainwashed" into viewing 17yo as kids and 18yo as adults as a way to create this automatic artificial red flag since every country needs to have their own boundary's on how to handle things (hence why there is no universal age on wen you become an adult), wen in reality, in terms of brain, morality and actions (and some times body), there is no diference. I have more examples of this but dont wanna be annoying

So my advice still stands, unless you are going into shota territory (like 15 or below I guess) try to make a blind eye to the whole age gap business (unless thats the main plot point), because, you should be looking at the characters.
BUT, obviously, if the character acts like a 4th grader (not childish, but like a kid), it becomes automatically weird, as obviously, it portraits a feeling that the character is being taken advantage of because of his inexperience and curiosity, but for this specific story, age is a thing that should not really be the prime focus, but only a subplot/plot point.
Since, while Kei is a virgin and a teen, he already liked Meguru even before knowing him and already had come out to his mother for 1 year (I believe) and never shows lack of maturity, but rather, a huge lack of emotional support, and Meguru is not even shown as a proper adult whit life experience (I think that was kinda the point), apart from him having a job (the author never mentioned if Meguru was a good writer, which imo was also another hint at the fact that he isnt living his ideal life ) and a house (which was his mothers), he starts whit unresolved issues whit his mother and along the story even shows that he dislikes his past and how his fears affected his life, which for me made the story much more interesting, as, specially because of the age gap, we get to se Meguru "being a teen" for the first time, all because of Kei, as he even claims that it feels like he is the one going trough puberty (tbh for me puberty is at 13 so Kei going trough puberty seems like a odd way to phrase it but I guess the author went whit it being a process, but not the point), whit Kei at the end helping him coming to terms whit his mother.
So, while I think the age gap was mainly for that tiny bit of drama of "Oh no, I like someone that is still a student, I am a perv !", but it was also subtly used to develop Meguru, since, instead of the cliche "Experienced adult Seme seducing the student Uke whit home problem", it turned the story into "Broken Adult meets Broken Teen and find mutual support and love in each other"

Side note: Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[mirewitch]

@Cephalon_Hope I made my original comment two months ago, so while I'm doing my best to engage with your responses, the details of this story aren't exactly fresh. But skimming through the earlier chapters, I think my impression was primarily formed by stuff like chapter 2, wherein Kei askes about Meguru's popularity with women, Meguru's not being out with his family, and the gap in responsibilities between adults and kids. I also see it in the way Meguru gives Kei a safe place where he can talk, eat, shower, etc. without worrying about his mother's judgement. Maybe mentor is the wrong word for it, but the vibe of it just feels more like an adult watching out for a kid he's worried about, not two equals hanging out. That vibe does shift some over the course of the story, but even in chapter 5.5, when Kei is 18, Meguru is referring to him as "this kid" and spends a lot of time hand-wringing about whether he should be taking Kei's virginity away.

In regards to your larger point about adolescent maturity, I have to disagree. The scientific consensus is that some parts of the brain, such as the prefrontal cortex, aren't developed completely until about age 25. The prefrontal cortex is connected to impulse control and logical decision making, and lack of development there is suspected to contribute to things like high levels of teen suicide, unintended pregnancy, and drug abuse. The distinction between "hot" and "cold" cognition is also relevant: Teens can often make solid analytical decisions in the abstract, e.g. in a classroom, but in tense moments their well developed limbic system tends to override their underdeveloped prefrontal cortex, leading to more impulsive, emotional decisions. This often leads to teens thinking they are the same as adults, and even seeming like it much of the time, but failing to make wise decisions in dangerous or stressful situations. Speaking from my own perspective, I changed rather dramatically in my late teens and early twenties. If someone asked me at the time, I would have said I was a rational adult, but looking back I can see many times when I acted solely on emotions.

Studies backing my claims about brain development:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2475802/

Now to be clear that doesn't mean I think everyone under 25 should be considered a minor. And its not like people turn into super-analytical robots at age 26; emotions influence all people at all ages. But I do think it is important to keep brain development in mind when interacting with teens. Even if they seem like adults when you have a conversation, that doesn't mean they can handle the kinds of strong emotions a long term adult relationship can entail. When its two teens dating one another I don't think its a problem; they can mature into adults together. But when its an adult in their late 20s dating a teen, the ability for the adult to more rationally deal with emotional situations will grant them a lot of leverage in the relationship, especially when there are disagreements. So returning to Irony Dress, while I don't think Meguru would intentionally take advantage of Kei, I think his ability to deal with emotions maturely gives him an unfair advantage over Kei. And that power disparity bothers me.

 

[I_I_Hope_I_I]

@mirewitch I understand everything you said apart from the last phrase, since imo, Meguru is shit at dealing whit emotions, hell, must of the story is him not being able to deal whit this part of "teen life" that he never experienced and the obvious regret over his relationship whit his dead mother (plus we can see him act impulsive wen Kei mother sees the other guy kissing his cheek), plus, from what the story tells, he has never in a serious proper relationship (him losing his v-card just means he had sex whit someone).

So, I would say that your impression of Meguru was just obfuscated by his age (since you cant seem to make a blind eye to it), since in my eyes, he is anything but a mature adult whit his head in the right place.

Side-note: And yea, the whole "kid" term gets trown around in a very "fuck it" way trought many mangas, but I think the term is usually more to establish the fact that the character is younger rather than the character is a underage brainlet child (like how a 40yo calls a 20yo kid), but I get why you get the bothersome feeling, I guess I just became desensitized after reading a few story's so I just automatically understand the meaning behind it.

But yea, it was nice discussing this whit you, its nice to see different views.

 

[sukaley]

@mirewitch I agree completely about both your praise of the issues presented in this manga of the distinction between gay and trans as well as your complaint about the age gap! Especially the age gap; I find that so many LGBT stories, both Eastern and Western (Call Me By Your Name, for example, ugh) have this uncomfortable power disparity, with an "experienced" queer person, often middle-aged, teaching someone "new" to their sexuality, often still a child.

@Cephalon_Hope There is an inherent difference in maturity that comes with years lived, with the experiences of being an adult and having control of your own life, regardless of whatever personal hangups that adult would have (unless they have a developmental delay). I'm just in my early 20s and I still don't feel like I'm on the same level of maturity as someone in their late 20s. However, the difference between an 11 year age gap between someone in their 20s and someone in their 30s versus someone in their teens and someone in their 20s is that the teenage years are SO dramatic in terms of brain development and their place in society. You go from being a child to being an independent, adjusting to either working in actual society or studying towards that career. To a teenager, 16 is incredibly different from 18, and 18 is even so different from 20. This is a change that someone going from 28-30 would not feel as powerfully.

I know in BL we can have a suspension of disbelief in the context of the story, but that is because the author, and LGBT media in general, frame it in a way that makes it seem sweeter and less problematic. I'm with mirewitch in that this doesn't ruin the story for me; they're both sweetie pies and I know that Meguru means well, but you can't disagree that their relationship isn't, at least currently, balanced in power.

 

[I_I_Hope_I_I]

@sukaley I will have to disagree, from 16-18 and even from 18 to close to 20, I feel no diference apart from the fact that I now need a job to replace school, I simply do not feel that "huge gap" that both of you describe.

Being in control of your life can only give you so much, being stuck in a routine between work and home wont make ou wiser of the world or more mature, it simply means you now have basic survival skills, which has nothing to do whit being in a relationship.


Now, lets talk about the story:

For me, you guys are way to focused on the age to properly see who Meguru properly was.
From what I got from the story, this is a first for Meguru, he has had sex, but he has never been in a relationship (Sound the cliche alarm), so, despite him being 29 and having more "maturity that came whit years lived", he is in a situation that he has never been before (something where his "experience" literally isnt worth much), that he himself describes as "it seems like I am the one going trough puberty" as to make the readers understand that he doesn't even know why he is acting like that (even though it is obvious).

Now, lets leave it to opinion, but I think what the author meant to go whit this was that he was trying to make us understand that Meguru was getting to relive something he never got to experience, something that him being an adult could not control or solve.

Continuing on, we get to the relationship, and first of all I will say : I am not basing my opinions on LGBT media (as I really do not care about them, I am gay but I dont identify whit the LGBTQ+ group), and for sure not on bias, as older men arent my preference in any way, I am simply viewing this from a story point of view, since this isnt just a story about a 29yo making moves on a 17yo.
Now, their relationship, I have to ask, what is "power" for you ? Age ? Sex experience ? How many years you have lived alone ? Control over the other ? Because in all honesty, I dont see any power here at all, they both grew to like each other by being there for one another, their relationship before dating was confidants, Meguru never used the fact that he was older to win over Kei in any way, it was literally what the side-plot was about, Meguru being worried because of the age-gap, like, where do you see the power ? Wen did Meguru show to have power over Kei or wen did Kei show to have less power over Meguru ? Like, what part of the relationship isnt balanced ? Wen is it shown ? I simply do not see this as a imbalanced relationship, much the contrary, the fact that they got to properly know each other as a person and even learn to trust one another whiteout ulterior motives before Meguru even started to have feelings for Kei seems to be much more healthy then most BLs I have read.

Now, this is obviously my opinion, but all I see is "Age this", "Adult that", "Irl those", placing labels/tags on the characters instead of analyzing them, plus, it seems you guys are viewing this from Western lens, wen this is a Japanese story, you know, the place where the age of consent is at 13 (yea japan has its... quirks) however where many prefectures have consensual sexual acts forbidden to be done to anyone under the age of 16-18 (yes the kiss was safe).

This is my opinion, obviously I dont expect you to agree, as I see your opinion is in favor of Mire, but you simply failed to change my mind about my view on the story having a problem or a unhealthy view.