Isekai Bishoujo Juniku Ojisan to - Vol. 11 Ch. 160.2 - Fabiniku Ojisan And Drunken Disorder 2

[TheTenk]

Honestly I'm enjoying the current combo way more than I did the original. It's just a much better visual and character dynamic.
Really hope it doesn't end up as yuri though.

 

[Amariithynar]

https://imgur.com/a/HOrKZli

Doesn't seem so.
If they spoke English, they would surely have throughout their entire lives refereed to each other using male pronouns. After being isekai'd, they still talk in the very same way, which to me sounds like men talking to each other. If there was only text, I would imagine two guys speaking. Hence why it sounds weird for them to use "they", feels unnatural.
It makes more sense if they used he/his when talking to each other and she/her when mentioning the sex changed one to someone else. I haven't read the entire manga in Japanese to confirm if there are any characteristics to their speech to imply the opposite, maybe someone could point it out if there are.

I asked this many chapters back, and they confirmed that the Japanese was using ungendered pronouns (with a bias towards the NB referral as well, fair enough), but it does come across as weird localization choice because Tachibana isn't becoming non-binary but instead is undecided between being male (original self, current genderbend) and being female (original isekai/genderbend).

Looking at the specific page that is what most stands out here (that is, page 186 of Vol. 11 or page 5 of this ch. 160.2), it seems to still be the case. [こいつ･･] is "koitsu" and is used to refer to someone who one is close to and has no reservations with, and has no gender specificity; "this guy" where "guy" means "person"; alternatively, "this person", but without the formal feeling that that engenders (which is exactly what they translated it as). [さては 寝ぼけていつもの 自分の寝床に 戻ってきたな･･] is a bit more of a tough nut, if you're just MTLing it, but [自分] "jibun" means "self" (more accurately, any and all of the list, "myself; yourself; oneself; himself; herself", interchangably) and can be used to refer to yourself or someone else. A simple enough Google MTL gives us the translation of, "Well, I was half asleep and returned to my usual bed..." and if we then acknowledge the unspecific pronouns noted being "I" as well as "you" in effect, then we can easily reword it to, "Well, they were half asleep and returned to their usual bed..." to keep the ambiguousness of the pronouns used, rather than try to localize it further. To be "more" correct it should probably be written something like, "Well, they were half asleep and returned to one's usual bed...", but that reads even more stiffly than the use of "they".

For the page you showed, however, what Jinguuji replies with, [性自認は 男だ], is pretty clear: [性自認] is "gender identity", and [男] is "otoko", or "male" (the other characters are those particles used for inflection and such, aka "na", "wa", "da", etc; here it's [は] "wa" and [だ] "da"). Jinguuji is clearly stating not that he, "has a guy's self-control", but rather is stating, "My gender identity is male". However, this is Jinguuji, NOT Tachibana, that is being referred to; the unspecified pronouns are used for Tachibana.

Forgive my poor memory. The goddess changed their gender again, was it for incentive or punishment?
If it's incentive then why change both? She changed one back to his original gender so he is less incentivized to do what she wants.
If punishment... Well, same problem really.

Unless the goddess changed both of their genders at the same time specifically to keep it one male and one female, specifically because she is the goddess of "love"... which would imply that her "love" is purely if it's heterosexual... which I have a vague feeling has been disproven.

(Ultimately the real answer is: because the Mangaka wanted to flip the situation... But that is beside the point)

Punishment. They were really reaming her out for being such a flake and a generally shitty personality, so she flipped them as punishment. They're doing this whole quest as penance to get it reversed.

 

[Recyclex]

Japanese is mostly gender neutral.

Correct.

 

[ewjifowejfiowe]

For the page you showed, however, what Jinguuji replies with, [性自認は 男だ], is pretty clear: [性自認] is "gender identity", and [男] is "otoko", or "male" (the other characters are those particles used for inflection and such, aka "na", "wa", "da", etc; here it's [は] "wa" and [だ] "da"). Jinguuji is clearly stating not that he, "has a guy's self-control", but rather is stating, "My gender identity is male". However, this is Jinguuji, NOT Tachibana, that is being referred to; the unspecified pronouns are used for Tachibana.

Before, he says "俺は自生の効く男", which to me sounds very much like he's calling himself a guy. And even so this is Jinguuji, I don't see how would he not use "he" when talking to Tachibana. I forgot that in this very chapter, when thinking to himself, Tachibana seems like to currently think of himself as a man too. All pieces in the context points that "they" is simply weird to be used by them.

https://imgur.com/a/VCCTkRx

Isn't even the whole point of the story to be "funny story about a weird love between two middle aged guys"? If they stopped treating each other like that, it defeats the point and it defeats the parts reinforcing this gap. When they think of the other dude as a female, it creates a contrast exactly because in the inside they are both man. If the goal was to add ambiguity at all parts, I imagine their speech would change too. This is not done because it would hurt the romance and humor.

Looking at the specific page that is what most stands out here (that is, page 186 of Vol. 11 or page 5 of this ch. 160.2), it seems to still be the case. [こいつ･･] is "koitsu" and is used to refer to someone who one is close to and has no reservations with, and has no gender specificity; "this guy" where "guy" means "person"; alternatively, "this person", but without the formal feeling that that engenders (which is exactly what they translated it as). [さては 寝ぼけていつもの 自分の寝床に 戻ってきたな･･] is a bit more of a tough nut, if you're just MTLing it, but [自分] "jibun" means "self" (more accurately, any and all of the list, "myself; yourself; oneself; himself; herself", interchangably) and can be used to refer to yourself or someone else. A simple enough Google MTL gives us the translation of, "Well, I was half asleep and returned to my usual bed..." and if we then acknowledge the unspecific pronouns noted being "I" as well as "you" in effect, then we can easily reword it to, "Well, they were half asleep and returned to their usual bed..." to keep the ambiguousness of the pronouns used, rather than try to localize it further. To be "more" correct it should probably be written something like, "Well, they were half asleep and returned to one's usual bed...", but that reads even more stiffly than the use of "they".

The tricky part is that in Japanese, using "自分" in that phrase sounds natural, not like if Jinguuji was picking his words to not "misgender" his friend or because he is simply unsure. Don't they also banter to each other based on the sex change, like in the image I posted?

https://imgur.com/a/ERcIr9s

When I pick any chapter at random and read their talks, I absolutely can't see anything that points for the use of "them/they" by either. If everyone used that kind of reasoning for translating every manga, translations would become unreadable. "Well, the character is referring to a girl, but without the usage of "彼女" or something that makes the character sex very clear, therefore, to avoid localizing, we should not use "she" or "her", it would be wrong since it is not written in Japanese like that.

https://imgur.com/a/hKAsvn7

In here, for example, "あいつ" is used and no sex specific words are used, therefore to avoid localizing, we should not use "she" or "her"?

 

[Amariithynar]

Before, he says "俺は自生の効く男", which to me sounds very much like he's calling himself a guy. And even so this is Jinguuji, I don't see how would he not use "he" when talking to Tachibana. I forgot that in this very chapter, when thinking to himself, Tachibana seems like to currently think of himself as a man too. All pieces in the context points that "they" is simply weird to be used by them.

Tachibana is referring to himself as male here because of how he thinks, which is reflected in how he freaks out at Jinguuji saying that he's a girl now; he's thinking simply, in terms of physical body (also used because he's uncertain of himself and thus finds refuge in the physical reality rather than examining things deeper), while Jinguuji tends to refer to him not just as a him, as in those lines provided. It's a difference of who is thinking and speaking, primarily; I do agree with you that "they" comes across as weird because it lacks the cultural context and has its own burden of context in English, these days, but it is more accurate than localizing Jinguuji's words and thoughts of Tachibana to be gendered.

https://imgur.com/a/VCCTkRx

Isn't even the whole point of the story to be "funny story about a weird love between two middle aged guys"? If they stopped treating each other like that, it defeats the point and it defeats the parts reinforcing this gap. When they think of the other dude as a female, it creates a contrast exactly because in the inside they are both man. If the goal was to add ambiguity at all parts, I imagine their speech would change too. This is not done because it would hurt the romance and humor.

No, it's "Two middle-aged businessmen who are really close friends, one serious and the other goofy (basically a manzai duo), get isekai'd and one gets genderbent and given the charm of the Goddess of Love, and wacky hijinks ensue from there as they need to deal with their new circumstances". Tachibana has been slowly but surely becoming uncertain if he wants to be a guy anymore and settling into his female self while becoming much more keenly aware of Jinguuji as a member of the opposite sex; it's only the current storyline that inverts things and gives him time to re-examine himself as male versus Jinguuji being female, yet still very much set in his identity.

The tricky part is that in Japanese, using "自分" in that phrase sounds natural, not like if Jinguuji was picking his words to not "misgender" his friend or because he is simply unsure. Don't they also banter to each other based on the sex change, like in the image I posted?

https://imgur.com/a/ERcIr9s

Mhm. That's why I pointed out that it's an issue of Japanese being translated to English, with there also being a bit of a bias by the team translating that makes it feel a bit suspicious, but is in fact supported by the literal words and their meanings that are used; I will always side with the word and intent of the author(s) for how something should be interpreted over anything else, and where as here they explicitly use ungendered pronouns, though it reads weirdly in English because we have become unused to "they" as a singular pronoun over the past century-ish, I'd rather as close as possible to the same intent and framing be used.

When I pick any chapter at random and read their talks, I absolutely can't see anything that points for the use of "them/they" by either. If everyone used that kind of reasoning for translating every manga, translations would become unreadable. "Well, the character is referring to a girl, but without the usage of "彼女" or something that makes the character sex very clear, therefore, to avoid localizing, we should not use "she" or "her", it would be wrong since it is not written in Japanese like that.

This isn't a, "they don't explicitly use a female pronoun, ungender it" situation like you're presenting, this is a, "they explicitly used an ungendered pronoun, don't localize it to a specific gender" situation. Just like how I can say, "Oh, they're doing well" when asked how a mutual friend is to which both myself and the person asking knows their gender (this is also common misdirection play used in Japanese when the gender of a character is hidden for a later reveal, often as a gag). If Tachibana uses a male pronoun, it should be used, same with Jinguuji- however, often it's indeterminate and thus wrong to do so, even if MTL shoves a gendered pronoun into it (an easy way to point out an unedited MTL translation is wrong gender pronouns being used to refer to someone, because of this).

Lets use the prior quote image's dialogue/banter as example: [が 落ち着くし からだ 身体が変わった以外は 最高の気分だが?] [クソッ!! どうして おまえには魅了 かかんねえんだよ! 俺は今こんなにも イケメンなのに!!] [自分で言うな 自分で] This banter can all be loosely MTL'd as, "I feel calm, and other than my body changing, I feel great." "Shit!! Why can't she charm you? I think he's so handsome right now!!" "Don't say it yourself" and that's mostly correct, except for, "Why can't she charm you?"; That more accurately should be translated as something like, "Why can't I help but be charmed by you?!" (which I'm guessing the translated page does, or close to; I can't remember which chapter that is and since you didn't source it I ain't scouring the chapters here for it).

https://imgur.com/a/hKAsvn7

In here, for example, "あいつ" is used and no sex specific words are used, therefore to avoid localizing, we should not use "she" or "her"?

Correct, if that's all the context you have, as Japanese is a highly contextual language. [あいつ] "Aitsu" has two main uses; first, as a third person personal pronoun, used disrespectfully or with a sense of familiarity. Secondly, as a demonstrative pronoun, used somewhat loosely to refer to someone that they're emotionally close to, or someone that the speaker/listener already knows. It is used both by men towards other men, and by women towards men (esp. that they're romantically attracted to), but, again, context needs to be there in the first place; it is a secondary characteristic, not a primary one. "that one" or "that guy" or "that person" are all fairly accurate, but "that guy" (or even "that dude", if the character thinking/speaking would use such terminology- and that's walking a thin line, since in many cases translators/localizers choosing such is adding a personality trait or traits that was/were not there originally) would be the most accurate for English for both the informality and the intimacy concepts. In short, it's just like the above [こいつ] "koitsu" that I already addressed.

Remember that indirectness in Japanese is considered as being polite, and being direct is more for informal (especially intimate) situations; that's why most love story manga make such a big deal about not using last names, or not using honorifics, between people that begin dating, and how it's seen as shameless if they do that sort of thing out in public instead of when it's just a private situation between them, and so on. Being informal could be a sign of a rough and tumble gangster, or it could be a sign of intimacy, of a close friendship or a relationship between two people.

 

[ewjifowejfiowe]

No, it's "Two middle-aged businessmen who are really close friends, one serious and the other goofy (basically a manzai duo), get isekai'd and one gets genderbent and given the charm of the Goddess of Love, and wacky hijinks ensue from there as they need to deal with their new circumstances". Tachibana has been slowly but surely becoming uncertain if he wants to be a guy anymore and settling into his female self while becoming much more keenly aware of Jinguuji as a member of the opposite sex; it's only the current storyline that inverts things and gives him time to re-examine himself as male versus Jinguuji being female, yet still very much set in his identity.

I agree. This is a better description, but it still defends my point.

Correct, if that's all the context you have

You have the art showing that they are talking about a girl. It doesn't matter that they use あいつ. The last speech balloon would still be translated to something like "For the sake of the world, it will be best if she dies soon".

I don't know why you are citing machine translation. I won't comment on it.

Lets use the prior quote image's dialogue/banter as example: [が 落ち着くし からだ 身体が変わった以外は 最高の気分だが?] [クソッ!! どうして おまえには魅了 かかんねえんだよ! 俺は今こんなにも イケメンなのに!!] [自分で言うな 自分で] This banter can all be loosely MTL'd as, "I feel calm, and other than my body changing, I feel great." "Shit!! Why can't she charm you? I think he's so handsome right now!!" "Don't say it yourself" and that's mostly correct, except for, "Why can't she charm you?"; That more accurately should be translated as something like, "Why can't I help but be charmed by you?!" (which I'm guessing the translated page does, or close to; I can't remember which chapter that is and since you didn't source it I ain't scouring the chapters here for it).

Chapter 149 and your translation is incorrect. Even without the full page, those panels have enough context to be properly translated.

Here's a rough translation:
"I feel more at easy with you as a man and aside from having my body changed, it feels the best though"
"Shit!! Why are you not charmed?!"
"I'm now so handsome!"
"Don't say that yourself".

The first phrase is a bit iffy. I'm unsure on how to convey it best in English.

 

[buskin]

I desperately want them both to wind up in a Ranma situation, where both keep swapping genders back and forth at semi-random. All of the gender combinations forever!

 

[comwes907]

what's going with the new cover?

 

[kitsushouten]

Oh true, i completely forgot Tachibana (blonde) is permanently under the goddess's beauty blessings. Meaning, like Jinguuji, they should also have an unfiltered genderbent version.

And yes, IMO girl Jinguuji > girl Tachibana 100%. Not sure what the people in universe see. Actually male Tachibana isn't even that hot either. Male Jinguuji without glasses in that beach chapter however, ohh boy.

i bet girl tachibana without the short, sharp, blonde filter would still be really cute.

 

[Elizzabeth2]

came for gender swap, left for too much text and uninteresting plot/characters :/ don't understand how it lasted so long as -_-

 

[liquid_2]

"I thought it would be fun to be a guy again but..." I know what you are

If this turns into best friends yuri I'll be over the moon. A girl can dream

WE LIVE IN HOPE <3

 

[AncientWatcher]

Next time the goddess should just turn both of them into beautiful tall adult women and watch the shenanigans happen!

 

[chairlight]

It would be funny if they complete the task, but then get goddess angry again and she turns them into old people.

 

[Blackspace_2]

we on break?

 

[Diced]

Highly doubt it but I think Tachibana becomes a girl again? At least around chapter 200.

Likely wrong

 

[harukuro]

Their sexual tension be like:

Goddess:

 

[Gustbk]

Mostly unrelated note — you anime nerds sure have been infected with brainworms to make such a big deal out of a neutral pronoun. Calm down people, the meaning is still there and this is a genderbend story.

Forgive my poor memory. The goddess changed their gender again, was it for incentive or punishment?
If it's incentive then why change both? She changed one back to his original gender so he is less incentivized to do what she wants.
If punishment... Well, same problem really.

You made a whole lot of assumptions there, buddy.
Basically the Goddess is incompetent and accidentally switched them. But she said she would only try reversing it if they completed the mission.

So basically any conflict just comes from the fact that they aren’t used to that gender configuration, whilst still serving the same functions.