Isekai Cheat Survival Meshi - Vol. 3 Ch. 14 - Dragon Meat
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@RunicEX You as well are likely referring to a steak that is over cooked to the point of drying it out, ive tried to get steaks cooked by others and they usually end up that way. So its no surprise you think well done = tough. Its about the equivalent of "most people dont know how to cook it, so nobody does and anyone that says otherwise lying" its pretty absurd.
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@Qelix you forget, the breath was just for a moment as explained by the knight. And no, leidenfrost effect would've still kicked in due to the momentary breath, the instantaneous barrier is what gives it its insulation property.
Even if we take your scenario of a sustained firestorm, the foam would've still been enough, especially if he can generate them continuously since the he'd only get roasted if there's thermal contact between him and the breath sans foam (he'd be cooked from the heated/molten ground long before the fire can get pass the foam, and that's only assuming he doesn't have foam underneath his feet), or well, simply suffocating from lack of air.
You are mistakenly believing that cooling is playing any part in protecting him, the key component is insulation, which foam is known to be amazing at due its poor thermal conductivity. In fact, all modern fire blocking sealants are all foam based, and one of the key components in space exploration is the aerogel (in laymen's term, solidified foam).
Even if we take your scenario of a sustained firestorm, the foam would've still been enough, especially if he can generate them continuously since the he'd only get roasted if there's thermal contact between him and the breath sans foam (he'd be cooked from the heated/molten ground long before the fire can get pass the foam, and that's only assuming he doesn't have foam underneath his feet), or well, simply suffocating from lack of air.
You are mistakenly believing that cooling is playing any part in protecting him, the key component is insulation, which foam is known to be amazing at due its poor thermal conductivity. In fact, all modern fire blocking sealants are all foam based, and one of the key components in space exploration is the aerogel (in laymen's term, solidified foam).
@Kisato No, the doneness of a steak refers to the firmness of the meat which is primarily a function of protein denaturation and interfibrillar water retention (which negatively correlates with denaturation). Different proteins denature at different temperatures so the temperature is a target, not the defined goal.
@jessiej First of all, if your meat tastes like blood then there's something wrong with your meat. Animals are killed by exsanguination and then left to hang to completely bleed out. There should be no blood left by the time they're put in cold storage, much less point-of-sale.
There are two major growth phases of the toughness of meat, the first occurs between 40~50C, the second between 65~75C hitting at maximum at 80C before gradually dropping due to breakdown of collagen into gelatin at those temperatures. 71C hits around 3/4 through the second growth phase.
While objective loss of water is fairly low (15% @60C 18% @65C 25% @70C) the subjective appreciation of juiciness has a stronger correlation with tenderness, likely due to retained interfibrillar water.
There is literally a science of cooking, and there have been numerous studies performed and articles written on just about any metric of cooked meat imaginable.
The science generally agrees with what chefs have been saying since forever: Meat gets ruined above 65C.
A juicy, tender, well done steak is scientifically improbable, not simply culinarily unlikely.
@jessiej First of all, if your meat tastes like blood then there's something wrong with your meat. Animals are killed by exsanguination and then left to hang to completely bleed out. There should be no blood left by the time they're put in cold storage, much less point-of-sale.
There are two major growth phases of the toughness of meat, the first occurs between 40~50C, the second between 65~75C hitting at maximum at 80C before gradually dropping due to breakdown of collagen into gelatin at those temperatures. 71C hits around 3/4 through the second growth phase.
While objective loss of water is fairly low (15% @60C 18% @65C 25% @70C) the subjective appreciation of juiciness has a stronger correlation with tenderness, likely due to retained interfibrillar water.
There is literally a science of cooking, and there have been numerous studies performed and articles written on just about any metric of cooked meat imaginable.
The science generally agrees with what chefs have been saying since forever: Meat gets ruined above 65C.
Unless it's slow cooked at high heat, eg pulled pork
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@falconnoclaf: [Click to unhide wall of text]
Wow, heat resistant foams and the perfect steak. Welcome to the science-thread.
Yepp, I'm assuming a sustained firebreath. As your video-link to the man, who trusted his hand through a falling stream of molten metal, showed, a too short contact would be ineffective. Liquids (especially molten metal) have a far higher heat transfer rate via thermal conductivity then air (flames). That dragon breath must do have a working balance between heat, air pressure and persistence to kill its targets or it would have been neither feared by the FMCs nor be useful at all.
A heat-resistant foams ability to isolate temperature is dependent of its ability to keep air-pockets bound in itself. Modern fire blocking sealants use a mixture of heat-resistant chemicals, that work as bubble-membrane. And yes, the stored gases do the major part of the insulation and isolation is where the money is on. But those foams (their material) are usually solid
Liquid fire extinguishing foams on the other hand work by spraying them into the heat source (the fuel), where they cool down the materials by vaporizing, cut off the flow of reactive gases (in most cases oxygen) and keep the surrounding heat from (re-)igniting the burnable materials (heat isolation). Let's keep all of this in mind for a moment.
MC got his bubble-power from a fish, that blew out a foaming bubble-wall as visual cover to get away. As the fish did seemingly nothing else, than blowing out highly dispersed air (or creating highly dispersed air in the nearby water), that skill/magic shouldn't create bubbles at all on land, but simply additional air. Let's say it does create bubbles, then, aside from the air, its main ingredient would be water... As it stems from a fish. (I'm totally guessing here.) Maybe something else beside the water, that decreases the surface tension, so bubbles form easier.
I concluded: 1: I don't believe the skill creates a foam, that uses a chemical with a high evaporation point. So 2: The heat would cause bubbles of a Air/Water-foam to burst instantaneously. And 3: Such a non-solid foam would deform easily and be carried away by the physical force of the fireblast anyways.
Therefore I would have expected, that his foam-armor would vaporize on the spot and wouldn't have a chance to isolate him from the heat, as it is to weak to hold the air-pockets bound to his body. The only effect that might work against the heat is the cooling effect of the water that is vaporized and the cooler air, that is mixed with the flames. But yeah, I concur with you, that this would do next to nothing to help.
About that foam being created continuously: Now that thought could changes things. If he would create new cool foam around his body faster than the fire breath can blast it away, even if it is just a few millimeters thick, that might do the trick. Heck, even if he just creates a thin layer of cool air, that covers his whole body, I estimate he could survive unharmed even in-midst that intense heat radiation hell (only the infrared radiation of the flames surrounding him), if that fire storm only lasts for 1-2 seconds.
But such a dragon's firebreath must be intense to begin with, so it can surely one-hit-kill most opponents. The bubbles skill must be equally violent in its output power as that breath. Then it would work.
Well, in this manga it somehow worked out, but it is still hard to swallow.
A heat-resistant foams ability to isolate temperature is dependent of its ability to keep air-pockets bound in itself. Modern fire blocking sealants use a mixture of heat-resistant chemicals, that work as bubble-membrane. And yes, the stored gases do the major part of the insulation and isolation is where the money is on. But those foams (their material) are usually solid
Liquid fire extinguishing foams on the other hand work by spraying them into the heat source (the fuel), where they cool down the materials by vaporizing, cut off the flow of reactive gases (in most cases oxygen) and keep the surrounding heat from (re-)igniting the burnable materials (heat isolation). Let's keep all of this in mind for a moment.
MC got his bubble-power from a fish, that blew out a foaming bubble-wall as visual cover to get away. As the fish did seemingly nothing else, than blowing out highly dispersed air (or creating highly dispersed air in the nearby water), that skill/magic shouldn't create bubbles at all on land, but simply additional air. Let's say it does create bubbles, then, aside from the air, its main ingredient would be water... As it stems from a fish. (I'm totally guessing here.) Maybe something else beside the water, that decreases the surface tension, so bubbles form easier.
I concluded: 1: I don't believe the skill creates a foam, that uses a chemical with a high evaporation point. So 2: The heat would cause bubbles of a Air/Water-foam to burst instantaneously. And 3: Such a non-solid foam would deform easily and be carried away by the physical force of the fireblast anyways.
Therefore I would have expected, that his foam-armor would vaporize on the spot and wouldn't have a chance to isolate him from the heat, as it is to weak to hold the air-pockets bound to his body. The only effect that might work against the heat is the cooling effect of the water that is vaporized and the cooler air, that is mixed with the flames. But yeah, I concur with you, that this would do next to nothing to help.
About that foam being created continuously: Now that thought could changes things. If he would create new cool foam around his body faster than the fire breath can blast it away, even if it is just a few millimeters thick, that might do the trick. Heck, even if he just creates a thin layer of cool air, that covers his whole body, I estimate he could survive unharmed even in-midst that intense heat radiation hell (only the infrared radiation of the flames surrounding him), if that fire storm only lasts for 1-2 seconds.
But such a dragon's firebreath must be intense to begin with, so it can surely one-hit-kill most opponents. The bubbles skill must be equally violent in its output power as that breath. Then it would work.
Well, in this manga it somehow worked out, but it is still hard to swallow.
Wow, heat resistant foams and the perfect steak. Welcome to the science-thread.
@xfaca So what you are saying is only people really skilled at cooking steaks can make a juicy well done steak and the rest simply accept 'thats how it is as best as i can figure, so it must be right'. There are times when the science doesnt account for everything and a better approach is found, So called experts in any given field often cant see past preconceptions.
Bottom line is there is a difference in taste between a steak that is well done and one that isnt, and i dont like that taste. So few meats are not cooked well done but its just accepted for steaks as if its normal. Most people are so god awful at cooking steaks that it comes out like a block of wood and just as dry so they have no choice but to go with "raw is better because its not a block of wood". Reality is that there is a place between "raw" and "block of wood" and if you can get to that place the right way then you come out with an amazing steak that is juicy and soft regardless of what your experts say who dont know how to cook a well done steak. Just because most people dont know how to do it doesnt mean its not possible. More then anything though, what any of you believe doesnt change the reality that my steaks come out juicy, delicious and dont taste like they are raw.
Bottom line is there is a difference in taste between a steak that is well done and one that isnt, and i dont like that taste. So few meats are not cooked well done but its just accepted for steaks as if its normal. Most people are so god awful at cooking steaks that it comes out like a block of wood and just as dry so they have no choice but to go with "raw is better because its not a block of wood". Reality is that there is a place between "raw" and "block of wood" and if you can get to that place the right way then you come out with an amazing steak that is juicy and soft regardless of what your experts say who dont know how to cook a well done steak. Just because most people dont know how to do it doesnt mean its not possible. More then anything though, what any of you believe doesnt change the reality that my steaks come out juicy, delicious and dont taste like they are raw.
@jessiej No, no matter how good you get at cooking steak you won't break the laws of chemistry, and the sheer arrogance of proclaiming superiority over star chefs is quite frankly mind-boggling. Not to mention experimentation done under laboratory conditions.
Especially given your apparent inability to differentiate the tastes and textures of bloody, raw, rare, and medium meat. That doesn't exactly inspire a great deal of confidence vis-à-vis your culinary prowess, knowledge, and palate.
Especially given your apparent inability to differentiate the tastes and textures of bloody, raw, rare, and medium meat. That doesn't exactly inspire a great deal of confidence vis-à-vis your culinary prowess, knowledge, and palate.
@xfaca I dont know whether to laugh or cry since you apparently cant understand. You can call it what you want but i dont like the taste of "bloody, raw, rare, and medium" meat. All the experiments in the world wont wont show them what they dont want to see if they believe they are right and arnt looking for any other solutions, all they do is "ok, lets try the way i know it turns out bad, oh it turned out bad, i guess there is no way to make it good". But hay, if the more raw it is the more soft it is and if it never tastes like blood or if that tastes good to you, then why bother even cooking the steak at all? why dont you eat it raw?
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@Qelix You are mistaking fire fighting foam with fire blocking foam. Fire blocking doesn't smother the fuel, it's merely a foam sealant, some of which having no fire retardant due to health concerns (I think that's mainly in california iirc), the main component responsible for the insulation is well, air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeJ9q45PfD0
aerogel is so good because it's made out of mostly air. The material involved is mainly used for durability and structural integrity.
As for the dragonbreath, it has "intensity", but no "force" to speak of, in most fantasies (low to med., high fantasies have their own set of rules that normally don't even apply outside of their universe most of the time) that feature western dragon firebreaths, it doesn't "push" or send people flying (that's reserved for wing flaps, explosives like fireballs or galebreaths), rather turning them into charcoal or severely burning them where they stand. It's more like a enclosed BBQ unit fill with propane, more like a flash firing expanding outward as opposed to jet propelled flamethrower (think fire in front of an aerosol spray). The flash firing can singe you in a sec, longer duration cooks you (ala napalm style).
So foam wouldn't be blown away, as it isn't even a concern; that leaves the heat and duration. Source of foam is aquatic in nature, so the likeliest material would be a protein-mineral mixture (a natural occurring form would be sea foam). That leaves the only problem being how the protein denatures, an example would be grilled tofu skin (processed soy protein) being burnt over a grill , it'd still retain its shape and the inside is general still edible unless you leave it for a long time. Then you've meat protein (easier to transfer heat due to water, fats and other components) and egg protein where it coagulates, seeing as the foam retained its shape for the most part, it's more along the tofu/algea type of protein with a high air-mix ratio.
And in a manga with hardening, this part made a lot more sense cause the closest thing I can think of for on-demand hardening would be electro-contractions, and they are nowhere as hard as depicted in the manga.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeJ9q45PfD0
aerogel is so good because it's made out of mostly air. The material involved is mainly used for durability and structural integrity.
As for the dragonbreath, it has "intensity", but no "force" to speak of, in most fantasies (low to med., high fantasies have their own set of rules that normally don't even apply outside of their universe most of the time) that feature western dragon firebreaths, it doesn't "push" or send people flying (that's reserved for wing flaps, explosives like fireballs or galebreaths), rather turning them into charcoal or severely burning them where they stand. It's more like a enclosed BBQ unit fill with propane, more like a flash firing expanding outward as opposed to jet propelled flamethrower (think fire in front of an aerosol spray). The flash firing can singe you in a sec, longer duration cooks you (ala napalm style).
So foam wouldn't be blown away, as it isn't even a concern; that leaves the heat and duration. Source of foam is aquatic in nature, so the likeliest material would be a protein-mineral mixture (a natural occurring form would be sea foam). That leaves the only problem being how the protein denatures, an example would be grilled tofu skin (processed soy protein) being burnt over a grill , it'd still retain its shape and the inside is general still edible unless you leave it for a long time. Then you've meat protein (easier to transfer heat due to water, fats and other components) and egg protein where it coagulates, seeing as the foam retained its shape for the most part, it's more along the tofu/algea type of protein with a high air-mix ratio.
And in a manga with hardening, this part made a lot more sense cause the closest thing I can think of for on-demand hardening would be electro-contractions, and they are nowhere as hard as depicted in the manga.
@jessiej Well, I guess we can add science to the list of things you don't understand, although given you denial of basic bio-chemistry that was pretty much a given...
It's one thing to have shit taste, it's quite an other to claim that ruined steak is good.
Oh, and stay away from null hypothesis, though, you might actually learn something.
It's one thing to have shit taste, it's quite an other to claim that ruined steak is good.
Oh, and stay away from null hypothesis, though, you might actually learn something.
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Today on Isekai Cheat Survival Meshi, They talk and eat at a camp fire. Next chapter we clean up the camp!
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Dragon meat... interesting that it's not hard.
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Waiting until the inevitable "eating ass" chapter.
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I am a badass. *sigh of despair* nods yes you are
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thats not how foam works you little shit, why don't you try going against a flame thrower
