Issak

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DOUBLE-S got my attention, new project but with different partner
It is interesting and the art nailed it

To be honest, I don't really know about the real event behind this
Even when I read Kingdom.. I'm not bothering myself to look up, but still following what other people are saying

Keep this up, I hope for faster release actually..
Well, I demand too much, but I hope it doesn't dropped halfway
I intend to read the raw, but my eyes isn't get along with kanji (I only know half of it.. more or less, and still learn it too)
 
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@Neil Sabaton fan here !
@metalslime you certainly have problems if you keep on judging series before even reading it. You can clearly see that on the cover he wields a musket as his main weapon.
This is an historical manga, not a fictionnal/fantasy one. It's based upon the stories of the Japanese mercenaries that left Japan during the Edo era, quite a number fought in Europe during the XVIIth century and most (if not all) used muskets (which became the standard against blades such as the samurais' after the siege of Osaka and the battle of Sekigahara).
@Memmon in fact, according to documents the author read (official documents such as monographs and Church records) hundreds of Japanese fought in European colonies (most of them) while some of the others went all the way to Europe (there's nothing such as exact numbers as far as I know but there were enough of them to see multiple stories, records, etc talking about them [which seems fair enough since they were "exotic" enough on such battlefields to notice them] ).

@AbuHajaar @Novichock I don't see what's your problem here. Most of the 30 Years War has been fought with spears, some swords, siege towers, armor and bows/crossbows. You seem to believe firearms were as common as they are now back then. Not every soldier had a firearm, this also applies to whole armies. Some may have had few platoons with firearms and artillery but the ones to have truly used it in its tactics at its best and with a whole equipped army were the Swedish as far as I know. Their example was then used to create what would become the "Modern Armies" (for the time).
Imagine that just the sheer size of the armies at the time (which was a first) already put the countries in the red, quite badly. Imagine now if they had to equip all of these soldiers with firearms.
At the time, it was far more effective to give artillery to an army (since these battles often were sieges) than a few muskets. Cannons can take down heavy doors and walls, musket can only go as far as killing soldiers. Usually, in siege battles, the attacker has an overwhelming advantage with numbers while the ones on defense bet on their fortifications. If you destroy fortifications, what's left is to storm the place.

However, what's fantasy here... is, maybe, his sharpshooting skills. Sharpshooting <-> Musket, I know of some (very few) records of incredible shots with muskets but I have my doubts about the precision of a musket in the first place. Well, I can turn a blind eye to this (I could even be wrong, I don't know much about muskets).

@goronyanpai for some reason it made it all the way to France, so I'm reading the whole thing right now, I can tell you it's worth trying to read the raws or wait for someone to TL it !
 
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@Shyning

(the name's Memnon, like the Aethiopian hero in Greek mythology, not Memmon)

It’s good to mention documents, but it’s even better to cite them ?

For example, I know that, from 1603 onwards, there are claims that large numbers of Japanese Samurai came to Mexico from Japan to work as guardsmen and mercenaries, and that's from Charles Mann's 1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created, page 324:
tumblr_inline_p6b9muOQiy1rpr1t4_500.png

Other experts think this is a hell of a creative interpretation that Mann made, but I find it too cool to not forgive.

That said, I'm not sure you quite understand @AbuHajaar and @Novichock 's complaints, which are pretty justified in my opinion. This manga set in the Thirty Years' War and none of the Europeans have firelocks. The Thirty Years' War, a conflict which saw the extensive use of small arms on a scale never before seen in Europe. Why is Spinola's army is shown using bow and arrow and the defenders only have crossbows? By that time the Spanish Hapsburg army had adopted a two shooters, the Spanish tercios, to one pikeman/sword&bucklerman ratio almost out of the gate, because the Spanish realized guns were so good that they accepted the fact that tercios would have to be significantly smaller than Swiss or Landsknecht regiments, and that fact made shooters take twice the wage of pikemen from the first muster, and equal to veteran melee troops like Doppelsöldner.

Like, Englishmen who were veterans of overseas conflicts constantly referenced the Spanish armies as the model for zealous adoption of firelocks in the English debates over where to finally put the kingdom's romance with the longbow to bed.

And, of course, the use of siege towers makes no sense that late into the 17th century when the introduction of cannons made them obsolete and actually dangerous to deploy. Why take the risk of making a siege tower full of your men when a cannon can take them all out in one or two shots?

So yes, I find it normal to complain when it seems the author either didn't do his research or just wanted to have the Japanese mercenary be super special.
 
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@Memnon welp, sorry for the mistake about the name ?
While it's true Europeans already used firearms at this time, early in the war they were still fairly scarce, while... yes, Spinola's army should have firearms (unless this battle had taken during his "bottom of the barrel" times ? Doesn't look like at it looking at his outfit here) tho, at least "some".
Maybe I was too hasty with the siege towers, thinking back about it, it's indeed weird.

What I find strange is that so far no one seemed willing to bring reinforcement for such an important strategical "fortress".
Tho as your last point, I'd agree in saying the author definitely want the MC to be special, sharpshooting with a musket ? Eeeh, I wonder. I already used a musket (we hold a lot of medieval / up to XVIIIth century events around here), while I can say it works well... I wouldn't go to the lengths of saying it's THIS accurate, no matter how special the musket is. But... while being "historical" either by intention or by lack of knowledge, there seems to have a handful of fantasy physics involved in this one.

As I say, I'm no Thirty Year War expert, from my knowledge I wouldn't be "that" surprised if such a battle happened at the very beginning of the war (we still don't know the exact setting but seeing how we seem to be quite deep in the war, I welcome the complaints about it) but... yeah, it does seem more like the author taking liberties/lacking knowledge.

Ps: this translation lose a lot of the meaning in discussions tho, I have the French one (from the editor not a fan one) which is infinitely more detailed, the discussions have way more depth than as seen here. While it's sad to see it lost this way, I understand translating it is hard and keeping the meaning is sometime harder as the TL may not have a deep and vast knowledge of both languages. If the team reads this, don't give up, that's how you build up experience, everyone here's thankful for this !
 
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Promising, but I don't see the point of throwing in a love interest. Maybe she'll become more important latter on. Or maybe she's not a love interest hopefully.
 
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The historical Spinola died in 1630 or so and from the way the author chose to portray his getting literally 360noscoped in this manga, he didn't necessarily die right then and there. Perhaps he will later imply that the wound Isakku gave him led to Spinola's financial ruin since his soldiers no longer revere him as much as before. All in all this was a very good read. History based fiction, especially regarding medieval times up to the 16th-17th century, has always been my thing. I laughed my ass off when I saw that peasant bandit wearing a hounskull in chapter 1 - about 200 years or so later, sure, but the story involves Protestant Bohemians so I got severe Kingdom Come: Deliverance vibes from the story.
 
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Am I the only one who hope there is romance? But not as the main focus, and I prefer subtle romance.
If it is like UDOS, I think it will be good.
Historical x romance are good concept; it is full of war, sacrifice. Especially with that state.

I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of Zetta x Issak moment and she will soon be his partner (I mean, in battlefield, Zetta's ability is useful as you can see in chapter 1. Maybe you can consider that Zetta and his grandfather didn't have a place to stay). But chances are small too, if he does lone-war.
Well, only my assumption. We still have 2 volumes to go.
 
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handsome MC and a cute girl with a historical setting? yeah sign me up
 
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I want to like this one, but I really can't stand this overpowered bullshit mc.
 
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@Shyning

No, muskets and Argubusiers and pistols were in very wide use in the time period of this manga. The army portrayed in the manga is around the start of the Pike Era, which is 1480's-1500.

It's not accurate to the 1600's, where Pike and shot, Reiter and Cuirassier age of Warfare was in full swing.
Below is an overview on the history of the developments of warfare leading up to the 1600's and the 30 years war.
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------------------

The Rise of Pike and Shot 1490's to 1530. The Spanish Tercio, a Response to French Dominance in Italian Wars.
-----------------------------------
The French army was almost unstoppable after the 100 years war and were incredibly dominant 1500s+ because the French army was a professional paid force that consisted of Swiss Mercenaries and French Gendarme. It was in response to the incredible melee potential of the french force that the Imperial Catholic forces of Hapsburg Spain adapted to consist more and more of defensive pike formations with Gunpowder units and resisted the French in Italy. The earliest and most decisive of these victories was the Battle of Cerignola in 1503. Thus signalling the Start of the Pike and Shot era and the beginning of the Tercios, who replaced Spanish Pike only formations, the colunellas in the 1530's.

The battle of Pavia in 1525 cemented the Tercio and the age of Pike and Shot into the modern era and hinted at the rise of the Reiter horsemen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cerignola
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pavia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_and_shot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercios

The Pike and shot era over time reduced the importance of Crossbows and Long Bows, as Crossbows and Longbows required costly wood which had been denuded throughout Europe due to incessant war. Gunpowder weapons required less skill and cost less, so they gradually replaced all other ranged weapons for standardization purposes.

The last recorded use of an English Long bow for example, was in 1644 at the battle of Tippermuir in Scotland.

----------------------------------
-------------------

1600's the fall of the Caracole, the rise of the Swedish empire and Gustalphus Adolphus, father of Napoleonic warfare, using mobile canon to break Pike formations and the return of aggressive heavy armored cavalry charges to route poorly used Reiter and Pistolier cavalry and enemy infantry.
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The cavalry and troops of this manga, are not historically accurate. The cavalry for example would have very high contingents of pistoliers and heavily armored pistol cavalry pre-Gustavus Adolphus reforms and before the reintroduction of shock Cavalry adopted from Polish Hussars.

In 1600's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-lancer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:pappenheim_Curassiers.PNG

Gustalphus Adolphus himself is credited with inventing the precursors of Napoleonic warfare involving mobile artillery to break Pike Squares and to exploit the Caracole maneuver from enemy cavalry by charging his own armored cavalry into enemy pistoliers and routing enemy cavalry. His artillery would pulverized Pike squares and necessitate the enemy to have more gunpowder ranged units, which would then make them more vulnerable to his Swedish cavalry and Swedish Infantry charges.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavus_Adolphus_of_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracole

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Gendarme and the eventual widespread adoption of the Cuirassier and Demi-lancer

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During the 1560's and 1600's, heavy cavalry, armored as knights in plate armor, were not uncommon, but increasingly were phased out as Reiter horsemen, and Pistoliers armored in Plate armor were designed to counter them.

The French were forced to adapt to this during the French Wars of Religion because of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Wars_of_Religion

The developed replacement to Gendarmie and similar heavy Plate Armored Cavalry were Demi lancers and Cuirassier Horsemen. It's debatable how long of a transition period between 1560's to 1600's lasted, but the old suits of Gendarmie armor were used throughout this transition period. The rich especially could still pay for good Medieval style Plate Armor, which makes it especially confusing,and as a result, elite heavy Plate Armored Cavalry similar to knights were retained in many countries.

By the 1580s France and England had begun to phase out the Lance and by the 1650's, heavy cavalry abandoned limb armor mostly.
Germany had largely abandoned the Lance by the start of the 1600's, or not depending on the sources.

Again, confusing, but what we do know is that Gustalphus Adolphus found lots and LOTS of idiots running around with thin Pike and Shot Formations and plenty of unarmored pistol cavalry and not enough well trained heavy Cavalry who he repeatedly defeated during the 1600's with aggressive Artillery and heavy Cavalry charges, especially during the 30 years war, WHICH IS THE TIME PERIOD OF THIS MANGA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarme_(historical)#Gendarmes_in_battle_in_the_early_sixteenth_century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-lancer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:pappenheim_Curassiers.PNG

Heavily Armored Reiter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dresden-Zwinger-Armoury-Armor.13.JPG

*edit add 9/7/19

The Reiter Horsmen and Cuirassiers as well as the Demi Lancer, were over time replaced by Harquebusiers, and the term for Reiter and Harquebusiers essentially became synonymous. Harquebusiers are basically just Reiter Horsemen, but with Carbines and Long guns and Saber. The terms became synonymous because many units used the Saber and multiple Pistol and didn't transition so were essentially the same as the previous Reiter cavalry.
They also used the more reliable Crossbow and rarely various bows etc depending on the situation.


The lance is said to have declined, which is true. Hilariously though, a lot of the historians I saw kept saying the Lance disappeared, while there is plenty of artwork and Museum pictures depicting Cuirassiers, Reiters etc using the lance (because you know, they were still in use during the Napoleonic wars, so someone still knew how to use them and retained the skill even then so it makes no sense the Lance use disappeared. Note the Cossacks, the Polish Ulhans established in the 1720s and French Lancers and later on British Lancers. )


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harquebusier

On a side note, these chest plate, Helmeted Carbine and Saber wielding horsemen, alongside the armored Reiters and became the European standard when Gustalphus Adolphus inherited these cavalrymen and instead of using the stupid Caracole, he simply charged them in Swords first. The rest of Europe felt that full plated Cuirassier were too expensive and followed the Swedish Cavalry model, especially since close range Pistol shot and Harquebusier shots could penetrate Cuirassier armor, while the Chest and helmet Plate armor allowed Harquebusiers to occupy Cuirassiers while being significantly cheaper and less vulnerable to Infantry Long guns.

Limb armor on Cuirassiers was retained at least up until the 1640s, where it was confirmed to have been used by the British London Lobsters at the Battle of Cheriton. Just assume past 1644 that the limb armor was extremely uncommon, the Cuirassier Plate and Helmet was used extensively even into the 18th century like 1701 etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_lobsters

The Harquebusier style cavalry over time were retained under many different names especially well into the Napoleonic wars. Carabiners were very similar cavalry and even had similar plate armor, many hussars operated similarly to Harqubusiers with Long guns and Swords. Many of the light cavalry like Hussars etc, operated similar to old style Reiters, with multiple pistols and saber. The only difference was usually the names and the fact they often used even less armor.

*edit: 9/5/19

For anyone who wants to read about how Plate Armor itself was itself getting impractically due to the increasing power of the Arqubusier and Musketeer, declines in metallurgy for cheaper Iron and the increasing thickness, Serpentine gunpowder changing Corning Gunpowder and thus massively increasing gunpowder penetration, here are the links.

This was a big factor for how Pistols eventually allowed Reiter Horsemen to be so effective against traditional Plate Armor cavalry like Gendarme, as well as tipping the balance towards infantry slowly. Alongside the fact that the decline of field battles and cavalry as a whole due to the intense focus on sieges during the 80 YEAR'S WAR.

(Pikemen were particularly strong when combined with Gunpowder weapons as they mitigated each other's weaknesses, thus the Pike and Shot era. Pikemen alone were not, particularly invincible, their reputation for invincibility in history came from the Swiss era 14-15th century pikemen's discipline and mobility revolution, then from the 15th-16th century Pike and Shot Tercio Gunpowder afterward.)

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5udybq/how_effective_was_plate_armor_against_musketballs/
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3gvzr6/how_effective_were_early_matchlock_weapons/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Corning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus#Terminology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musketeer#Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio#Formations


If anyone wants to know, past the 16th century into the 1650's etc, the dutch innovated linear gunpowder formations, and Tercio Pike and shot gradually evolved to became the Napoleonic Infantry line.

*Edit 9/5/19: Added more reading material if anyone sees this post in the future and is interested.
*Edit 9/7/19: Added blurb on how Reiter Horsemen Evolved into the Harquebusiers, then branched out into all other European cavalry like Hussars, Carabiners, Dragoons etc.
 
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Well, at least this is not or not yet a Japanese sword slicing everything like grass manga so some mistakes here and there are acceptable for me as "the mangaka is also just a human".
 
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So far so good.. Really loving the art.. I find myself discovering and loving "historical" and "war" type of manga last year and again I have found one again..
 

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