Kyou mo Veranda de - Vol. 4 Ch. 46 - What Should Her Punishment Be?

[DoubleMatter]

can someone explain how he won?
In her panel she said "There's no Pink", but there is pink on both pages? and there are no 2 yellows or 2 whites anywhere as mentioned in her panel

He correctly guessed the "one red", so he got one correct and two wrong, while she got all three wrong, so he won one to zero.

 

[TheBlackGamer]

I agree with the rest that the spoon rejection was a clear signal from the author to the reader, though I would not jump to the conclusion that this is because he's loyal to "the ideal of his not-gf". Rather, I'd say it's just a signal that he's not interested in the friend. I think both reads on that reaction are valid, though. It's some form of 'mc's eyes are only on fmc', just that some will think it's loyalty, others - exclusive interest.

More then anything, I think it's dumb that the dude is daydreaming about going on dates with her and still refuses to be honest with himself and her and just tell her how he feels. It's the single worst quality of Japanese romance - this insane fear of rejection and complete unwillingness to communicate. I had hope for this manga because its adults, not teenagers, but at some point it rly is just this hilariously irrational Japanese logic. People hiding their feelings in a 20 layer chest, fearing even remotely ruining anything they have going on with another person, lest they make the other feel 'uncomfortable'. Part of why the whole country refuses to adapt and improve. Better live in a perpetual status quo than risk anything ever.

Have grown to dislike this manga at this point over how it really is a typical teen romance, just with some fake 'theyre adults' paint. None of the characters in this manga act any more adult than they do in most highschool romances. The only difference is that they have work and they live alone. Oh wait... Work = Studying, live alone = parents randomly ran off abroad and left the kid living alone... Oh my god. This is a highschool romance.

I'm shocked you thought this would be any different.

A more adult take on this story would be he asked her out 20 chapters ago with the story then focusing on the relationship of him dating a rising actress and the challenges that come with that.

Or he got rejected and is still very friendly with her and starts talking to other girls which ignites jealousy in her and then shifts to her asking him out. A scenario that happens more often than you think in adult relationships.

Or it stays platonic. There are multiple better more adult ways to write this but the route it took is the generic romcom route. Since this is tagged seinen I expected something deeper but guess not.

 

[WaterSoluble]

I find myself believing that the people who think that these characters aren't acting like adults are either children themselves or are very young adults with little real-world experience. Because the idea that they're not acting like adults is simply untrue.

Lots of adults are emotionally repressed, held back by lack of confidence, unsure what the right next step for themselves is, etc. In fact, for a lot of adults, the situation is worse than what kids have to deal with. Unlike with kids who are simply nervous and inexperienced, adults will get caught in a multi-year "rut" and as a result end up losing perspective on how to move forward. When they do get a chance to move forward, they won't know how, because they'll be years out of practice.

For Tokita, these character traits have literally been spelled out: In the chapter where Tokita's boss interviews him, Tokita established that he gave up on his goal of becoming an artist in university because he didn't have the confidence to believe that he had the talent to make it in that field. He then became a layout editor solely because that was the job he happened to get, and then he stayed at the same company until that company went under. Then, when his company went under, he just kept doing the same work as a freelancer rather than trying to come up with any sort of long term goal or plan. And the only reason that he happened to move past being a desparate freelancer is because when GOSH started up again, Kaji reached out to him and asked if he wanted his old job back. His boss even pointed out during that interview that Tokita has no confidence in himself and can't recognize any of his achievements.

And that's not the only time we've gotten in-story indications that this is a big problem for Tokita. In an early chapter, before he gets his job back at GOSH, he mentions that literally the only socializing he did at that point was occasionally drinking with Kaji, and that beyond that he had become entirely isolated. In this chapter, when Miyoshi attempts to feed Tokita, she mentions that it's been ten years since he's experienced something like that, heavily implying that it's been a decade since he had any sort of romantic relationship with someone.

Everyone here should know that there are a tonne of adults in Japan and the world at large that are "stuck", anxious, and isolated. It's fine to not like those stories -- everyone has preferences and if someone only wants stories with well-adjusted adults more power to them -- but the assertion that this isn't how adults act is at-odds with reality.

 

[Hikineet]

Thanks for the chapter.

 

[Felkin]

I'm shocked you thought this would be any different.

A more adult take on this story would be he asked her out 20 chapters ago with the story then focusing on the relationship of him dating a rising actress and the challenges that come with that.

Or he got rejected and is still very friendly with her and starts talking to other girls which ignites jealousy in her and then shifts to her asking him out. A scenario that happens more often than you think in adult relationships.

Or it stays platonic. There are multiple better more adult ways to write this but the route it took is the generic romcom route. Since this is tagged seinen I expected something deeper but guess not.

Oh I'd lost hope in this manga ages ago, it's still cute so I follow it along, the author did try to frame it differently during the intro chapters, it just quickly derailed.

 

[Felkin]

I find myself believing that the people who think that these characters aren't acting like adults are either children themselves or are very young adults with little real-world experience. Because the idea that they're not acting like adults is simply untrue.

Never met anyone acting like that in 30 years on this earth and I'm an extrovert who's in a field of introverts.

It's almost like it's not about age and experience but cultural differences. I was calling out the Japanese here. I get why it's a thing, doesn't mean we can't air out our frustration at how silly it looks from another culture's perspective in an online forum to maybe start a discussion on that.

There are different ways the same themes of insecurity could be portrayed, the author chose the way that is identical to how they would for a teenager romcom.

 

[TheBlackGamer]

I find myself believing that the people who think that these characters aren't acting like adults are either children themselves or are very young adults with little real-world experience. Because the idea that they're not acting like adults is simply untrue.

Lots of adults are emotionally repressed, held back by lack of confidence, unsure what the right next step for themselves is, etc. In fact, for a lot of adults, the situation is worse than what kids have to deal with. Unlike with kids who are simply nervous and inexperienced, adults will get caught in a multi-year "rut" and as a result end up losing perspective on how to move forward. When they do get a chance to move forward, they won't know how, because they'll be years out of practice.

For Tokita, these character traits have literally been spelled out: In the chapter where Tokita's boss interviews him, Tokita established that he gave up on his goal of becoming an artist in university because he didn't have the confidence to believe that he had the talent to make it in that field. He then became a layout editor solely because that was the job he happened to get, and then he stayed at the same company until that company went under. Then, when his company went under, he just kept doing the same work as a freelancer rather than trying to come up with any sort of long term goal or plan. And the only reason that he happened to move past being a desparate freelancer is because when GOSH started up again, Kaji reached out to him and asked if he wanted his old job back. His boss even pointed out during that interview that Tokita has no confidence in himself and can't recognize any of his achievements.

And that's not the only time we've gotten in-story indications that this is a big problem for Tokita. In an early chapter, before he gets his job back at GOSH, he mentions that literally the only socializing he did at that point was occasionally drinking with Kaji, and that beyond that he had become entirely isolated. In this chapter, when Miyoshi attempts to feed Tokita, she mentions that it's been ten years since he's experienced something like that, heavily implying that it's been a decade since he had any sort of romantic relationship with someone.

Everyone here should know that there are a tonne of adults in Japan and the world at large that are "stuck", anxious, and isolated. It's fine to not like those stories -- everyone has preferences and if someone only wants stories with well-adjusted adults more power to them -- but the assertion that this isn't how adults act is at-odds with reality.

A classic "People who criticize this story are children or have no experience" or maybe they're adults who don't act like this, never acted like this, have never met people who act like this, and find certain elements reminiscent of high school setting storytelling. Because a lot of the elements can be found in those settings. It's pretty much no different.

Look man I get it dude gave up a passion to be an "adult" and was listless a lot but that can easily be no different than a high school setting where a protag lost interest in a club or sport and is just trucking along through school. It's no different than that. It's also the way he handles relationships that is childish. Maybe because it's Japan but a normal adult male who isn't pathetic would've asked her out chapters ago and got rejected and moved on or dated her in secret.

I find this idea that giving up and doing "adult" things (whatever that means because it has no definitive meaning it's just a word people use as an excuse to give up instead of being proactive) is a pathetic excuse. Doesn't matter how old you are you always have stay current and reinvent yourself.

 

[WaterSoluble]

A classic "People who criticize this story are children or have no experience" or maybe they're adults who don't act like this, never acted like this, have never met people who act like this,

You misread. It's not "people who criticize the story are children or have no experience" it's "people who think this isn't how adults act are probably children or young adults with no experience."

If you yourself are a well-adjusted adult, then it is impossible for you you have not met many, many non-well adjusted adults. Specifically, 1 in 4 people are currently experiencing some sort of social isolation, a full quarter of the population. They are very common in society.

Maybe because it's Japan but a normal adult male who isn't pathetic would've asked her out chapters ago and got rejected and moved on or dated her in secret.

While that may be pathetic to you, for the people who enjoy reading this and many other seinen comics, it's interesting to read comedies about adults are who are struggling with internal issues that are preventing them from moving forward, and it's easy to have empathy for those characters rather than to see them as pathetic.

In fact, I'd say that the most interesting stories are the ones where the protagonist's biggest roadblock is themselves.

 

[WaterSoluble]

Never met anyone acting like that in 30 years on this earth and I'm an extrovert who's in a field of introverts.

It's almost like it's not about age and experience but cultural differences. I was calling out the Japanese here.

Is your hangup that you think that characters in a goofy sitcom should be behaving with 100% psychological accuracy that would require them to be in a different genre? Because calling out "Japanese Culture" over how these characters are acting when they're obviously written from a comedic POV is kind of strange. This isn't an ethnography.

Take away the goofiness, and these are typical not-well-adjusted people that are a dime a dozen in everyday life. But yeah, if your takeaway from a weekly sitcom is "insights on Japanese culture" then you're not going to get much out of it.

 

[TheBlackGamer]

You misread. It's not "people who criticize the story are children or have no experience" it's "people who think this isn't how adults act are probably children or young adults with no experience."

If you yourself are a well-adjusted adult, then it is impossible for you you have not met many, many non-well adjusted adults. Specifically, 1 in 4 people are currently experiencing some sort of social isolation, a full quarter of the population. They are very common in society.



While that may be pathetic to you, for the people who enjoy reading this and many other seinen comics, it's interesting to read comedies about adults are who are struggling with internal issues that are preventing them from moving forward, and it's easy to have empathy for those characters rather than to see them as pathetic.

In fact, I'd say that the most interesting stories are the ones where the protagonist's biggest roadblock is themselves.

Your first point reinterpreting my response doesn't change my interpretation. What I said and what you said are essentially not different.

Next yes I've dealt with "unadjusted adults". Hell I'm friends with one and I have no empathy for his problems because at the end of the day. All he can do is control what he himself can control. I've given him advice and he refuses to listen so at this point my "empathy" well is long dry. I think people like that are lazy, make excuses for themselves, refuse to take responsibility for what they can control and then some.

I'm fine with internal struggle stories but stories where the struggle is external or a combination of both are way better. They are better at teaching conviction to overcome then internal struggle.

Lastly having empathy doesn't mean ignoring criticism. You're just defending something under the guise of being empathetic but to me you're making excuses. Having empathy isn't going to solve the problem. Doing something will.

 

[phorx]

Curious on why that'd be a huge leap backwards. If they both perceive the relationship as a friendship then him being fed by another girl shouldn't be a big deal.

I understand they like each other but circumstances prevent them from being together but that doesn't mean the dude has to limit himself nor does he have any obligation to and vice versa tho it's harder for her. If anything her catching him being fed and getting jealous may be the boot she needs to actively pursue him considering when she heard the camping trip was going to be with a girl she was put on some slight edge.

She's way too slow otherwise.

I think it would leave her feeling “oh, I’m already too late… he’s already taken” and giving up, rather than stepping up.

Right now they’re open and honest and have well defined boundaries that they both believe the other person wants (whether that’s a correct assumption is open to debate though). They’re both romantically interested in each other whether they’re ready to admit that or not. They already have so many barriers that adding in misunderstandings would just completely sink this ship before it had a chance to sail.

 

[Felkin]

If you yourself are a well-adjusted adult, then it is impossible for you you have not met many, many non-well adjusted adults. Specifically, 1 in 4 people are currently experiencing some sort of social isolation, a full quarter of the population. They are very common in society.

I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact there is an epidemic of loneliness and social isolation. That's not what this is about. It's about two people who are already flirting with each other day in and day out, have friends, are capable of normal human interaction (do they look awkward af in their conversations at the veranda to you? They sure don't to me). Essentially two perfectly normal, highly introverted people who, for the sake of plot and an a cultural quirk, refuse to communicate their emotions to each other in fear of rejection/'the vibe being ruined'. Something that normally only teenagers worry about.

 

[TheBlackGamer]

I think it would leave her feeling “oh, I’m already too late… he’s already taken” and giving up, rather than stepping up.

Right now they’re open and honest and have well defined boundaries that they both believe the other person wants (whether that’s a correct assumption is open to debate though). They’re both romantically interested in each other whether they’re ready to admit that or not. They already have so many barriers that adding in misunderstandings would just completely sink this ship before it had a chance to sail.

I don't agree. I think she would ask who that girl was before immediately giving up. She's not the type to silently give up just because of a minor roadblock and thinking she would underestimates her.

I definitely think this would have her finally be more aware of her feelings and pursue him more actively

 

[Seldogrif]

You think it's a good idea to dedicate yourself to someone who you're not even sure you can go past being "friends".

Are you stupid? or willingly naive? I'm just gonna say it the protag is actually stupid. He's not pathetic at least just really foolish.

I do get your point, but still it doesn't mean that every dude would be fine just hoping into a relationship with any girl, especially a friend.

Also if you are not even sure that you can go past being "friends" than you should just figure it out.
This is a major problem with like 90% of Asian authors, they just do not know how to write romance or are just completely afraid of doing it.

 

[Seldogrif]

I think this is the first manga where the other girl having feelings for the MC isn't obvious, but if it comes out she does then it's totally obvious and I'm oblivious.

If it were real life I'd say that the guy has a shot, especially after that crepe gesture.
Like such gestures are usually really intimate and not for "friends".

But it's Japanese manga, so anything can happen

 

[stephen01king]

You think it's a good idea to dedicate yourself to someone who you're not even sure you can go past being "friends".

Are you stupid? or willingly naive? I'm just gonna say it the protag is actually stupid. He's not pathetic at least just really foolish.

The stupid thing to do is to confuse being uninterested in another woman as being the same as staying loyal to someone you're not in a relationship with. It just shows your understanding of relationships in general is severely lacking.

 

[TheBlackGamer]

The stupid thing to do is to confuse being uninterested in another woman as being the same as staying loyal to someone you're not in a relationship with. It just shows your understanding of relationships in general is severely lacking.

If you honestly think that's what happened here you're either blind or really dim. Trying to tell me my understanding is low when you're in full on denial. He didn't reject her because he's uninterested he rejected her because he's in love with someone he's not sure he can even date.

If you can't even see that I'm sure your
years of relationship experience can help you cope.

I do get your point, but still it doesn't mean that every dude would be fine just hoping into a relationship with any girl, especially a friend.

Also if you are not even sure that you can go past being "friends" than you should just figure it out.
This is a major problem with like 90% of Asian authors, they just do not know how to write romance or are just completely afraid of doing it.

I'm not saying he has to hop into a relationship with her just don't limit yourself in flirting with another girl especially when the girl you want there isn't any obvious signs she's into you or you're so weak to even ask her out.

 

[stephen01king]

If you honestly think that's what happened here you're either blind or really dim. Trying to tell me my understanding is low when you're in full on denial. He didn't reject her because he's uninterested he rejected her because he's in love with someone he's not sure he can even date.

If you can't even see that I'm sure your
years of relationship experience can help you cope.


I'm not saying he has to hop into a relationship with her just don't limit yourself in flirting with another girl especially when the girl you want there isn't any obvious signs she's into you or you're so weak to even ask her out.

Yep, like I thought, really shallow understanding of relationships. Bro, he wasn't even thinking about his crush, not was he even flustered when the girl offered to flirt with him. If this doesn't show you that he simply wasn't interested in her, instead of whatever over the top assumptions you seem to have made, I have no idea how you deal with relationships in real life.

Flirting with girls you're not interested in is basically just stringing them along and playing with their feelings. Don't do this in real life unless you're a wannabe playboy.

Also, thinking that a guy not flirting back can only mean that he is limiting himself is a hilariously shallow thought process.

 

[3ds1234]

Yep, like I thought, really shallow understanding of relationships. Bro, he wasn't even thinking about his crush, not was he even flustered when the girl offered to flirt with him. If this doesn't show you that he simply wasn't interested in her, instead of whatever over the top assumptions you seem to have made, I have no idea how you deal with relationships in real life.

Flirting with girls you're not interested in is basically just stringing them along and playing with their feelings. Don't do this in real life unless you're a wannabe playboy.

Also, thinking that a guy not flirting back can only mean that he is limiting himself is a hilariously shallow thought process.

I'm not gonna lie I think you're the one that doesn't really have that deep understanding of relationships.

When he went to the cafe with his friend his immediate thought was wishing he could bring his neighbor with him one day. Immediately after that his friend offers him an "aaaaaaah" and he rejects her. The story is clearly showing that he's full on in love with his neighbor and is rejecting his friend's playful flirting for that reason because his mind is on someone else. You're either willingly blind or just dumb. Story couldn't make it any clearer. And to say he rejected her because he's not interested? Well why isn't he? Because he's in love with his neighbor. You can try to make an excuse but it leads back to just he's in love with someone else.

Why should a dude be flustered when a girl flirts with him? That's what a child does not a man.

Also this wannabe playboy nonsense tell me you don't interact with women much without telling me. Flirting with a girl doesn't have to be for romantic reasons dude it could just be done as friends being close. Limiting flirting to just "Oh he's flirting with her clearly stringing her along or he wants her" and not also a fun activity to have a conversation with someone tells me you probably don't interact with woman all that often. Boiling it down to just a wannabe playboy thing is the height of shallowness. You're not gonna sit here and tell me the MC isn't flirting with the neighbor all the time.

And lastly I'm curious, if flirting with a girl you're not interested in is bad I hope you agree the same for woman.

 

[stephen01king]

I'm not gonna lie I think you're the one that doesn't really have that deep understanding of relationships.

When he went to the cafe with his friend his immediate thought was wishing he could bring his neighbor with him one day. Immediately after that his friend offers him an "aaaaaaah" and he rejects her. The story is clearly showing that he's full on in love with his neighbor and is rejecting his friend's playful flirting for that reason because his mind is on someone else. You're either willingly blind or just dumb. Story couldn't make it any clearer. And to say he rejected her because he's not interested? Well why isn't he? Because he's in love with his neighbor. You can try to make an excuse but it leads back to just he's in love with someone else.

Why should a dude be flustered when a girl flirts with him? That's what a child does not a man.

Also this wannabe playboy nonsense tell me you don't interact with women much without telling me. Flirting with a girl doesn't have to be for romantic reasons dude it could just be done as friends being close. Limiting flirting to just "Oh he's flirting with her clearly stringing her along or he wants her" and not also a fun activity to have a conversation with someone tells me you probably don't interact with woman all that often. Boiling it down to just a wannabe playboy thing is the height of shallowness. You're not gonna sit here and tell me the MC isn't flirting with the neighbor all the time.

And lastly I'm curious, if flirting with a girl you're not interested in is bad I hope you agree the same for woman.

If the reason was because he felt guilty towards the girl he liked the other guy was insinuating, the story would have no problem showing us this. It's not like the story have never explored his thought process in detail before. Even in the latest chapter it's showing both main characters thought process clearly. Any other conclusion you make is just your own head cannon that is pretty reaching for this type of story, especially if that conclusion involves thinking the guy was only rejecting because he is unnecessarily limiting himself for a girl he's not even dating yet.

There's also a difference between rejecting someone because you're not interested in them, whatever the reason for that is, and rejecting someone because you felt guilty about loving someone else. Did you not even read the comment thread before jumping in because you're not making any sense given the context of the conversation.

Why do I think he should be flustered with a girl offering to feed him if he's interested in her? Why, that's because we've been shown how he reacts to the girl he's actually interested in. Why do you ignore obvious things like this and instead make shallow generalisations about how men should act?

Having fun with female friends is completely fine, but flirting is a personal thing. If you think flirting with someone you have no interest in is fine, then I guess it's just a difference of culture. In more conservative cultures like mine and like in Japan, that's generally not considered a good thing. If you want to say your culture is the objectively right thing in this case, go ahead. It just sounds a bit ethnocentric, IMO.

The MC IS interested in the neighbour, what part of that do you think makes their flirting applies to the point I'm making? This makes me doubt if you even understood what I argued in the first place.

Of course I agree that women shouldn't flirt with people that they are not interested in. What's your point here? Do you think women should flirt and give false signals to guys they don't like? You don't see how that will create problems in the future?