Lady Evony - Vol. 1 Ch. 5
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Wooooo what pick my interest in this one... Is how she related to the queen.. Mmmmmmmm...
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@angerybord thank you for pointing that one out!! I wasn't sure if it was me going crazy reading too much into it or if it really was some subtle detail the author put
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@liszt Is that so? I am seeing "No I couldn't possibly do something so rude. etc." Until she is actually forced to. And my reply was towards "politely".
A command is a different story altogether which I conveniently ignored because it was so much worse that it never made the available options list in my head.
@Purplelibraryguy Its not after reading chapter 6. Before this, it is still possible for "Father tried to have arrange marriage with proper man. MC fell in love with shifty trash that became abusive. Father would not take it well but would still protect the daughter."
Common Sense of a Duke's Daughter is one such "example" though the father eventually "relented" in a sense (this is before the main story). I have also read a different story that gave this example butunfortunately, I forgot the name of it and it is secretly a shitty racist story I had to read for class. Basically its about a douche MC falling in love with a douche foreigner. Father disapproved. Then douche foreigner almost got the MC raped by an acquaintance due to "cultural differences". Then Papa Bear raged. They broke up and lived happily(?) ever after.
A command is a different story altogether which I conveniently ignored because it was so much worse that it never made the available options list in my head.
@Purplelibraryguy Its not after reading chapter 6. Before this, it is still possible for "Father tried to have arrange marriage with proper man. MC fell in love with shifty trash that became abusive. Father would not take it well but would still protect the daughter."
Common Sense of a Duke's Daughter is one such "example" though the father eventually "relented" in a sense (this is before the main story). I have also read a different story that gave this example but
@liszst i wasn't really trying to name-call(okay maybe a bit peeved), but my comment was a reply to what you said here:
i can only see the above, that you wrote so casually, as callous.
disregarding that this is just a comic for a moment; in real world medical perspective, knowing that her body is already severely impaired to the point that even the constant warning pain already became second nature to her, having her return to a prone position on her own on top of a soft bed would just put more stress on her body since she would be doing it in a 'panic' from being 'ordered'. she is more likely to "harm her damaged nerves or something" in the process as opposed to another person help lift and place her down
though the heroine's condition is not yet something fatal, the doc had already revealed that she is already at risk of her body possibly "breaking down" so your
and secondly, your comment ignored her mental health which is in tatters from years of oppression and emotional, mental, then physical abuse due to her gender. even you admitted that she would've responded more "favorably" to commands instead of gentle appeals, which is NOT a good thing. but you suggested it in your comment anyway because it "would've been more effective/useful/immediate".
i can only say that your approach to this situation just remind me of real world examples of people that exert control over their workers/employees through the logic of "even if one of your legs(arms/external body parts) is broken, the other one's still working fine; get to work or get fired" because the heroine is in a similar situation where she has to live with the fear of being returned to the prison should she displease the ML. <- making her do things through commands is not even a tiny bit helpful.
what's sad is that there are actually real people that submitted to this coercion due to fragile mentalities that are a product of their surroundings.
i can only see the above, that you wrote so casually, as callous.
disregarding that this is just a comic for a moment; in real world medical perspective, knowing that her body is already severely impaired to the point that even the constant warning pain already became second nature to her, having her return to a prone position on her own on top of a soft bed would just put more stress on her body since she would be doing it in a 'panic' from being 'ordered'. she is more likely to "harm her damaged nerves or something" in the process as opposed to another person help lift and place her down
though the heroine's condition is not yet something fatal, the doc had already revealed that she is already at risk of her body possibly "breaking down" so your
is like telling a person with leukemia "you have cancer, you're not paraplegic. you can get on/off the bed yourself" even though their entire body might creak like a set of rusty gears in the process.
and secondly, your comment ignored her mental health which is in tatters from years of oppression and emotional, mental, then physical abuse due to her gender. even you admitted that she would've responded more "favorably" to commands instead of gentle appeals, which is NOT a good thing. but you suggested it in your comment anyway because it "would've been more effective/useful/immediate".
i can only say that your approach to this situation just remind me of real world examples of people that exert control over their workers/employees through the logic of "even if one of your legs(arms/external body parts) is broken, the other one's still working fine; get to work or get fired" because the heroine is in a similar situation where she has to live with the fear of being returned to the prison should she displease the ML. <- making her do things through commands is not even a tiny bit helpful.
what's sad is that there are actually real people that submitted to this coercion due to fragile mentalities that are a product of their surroundings.
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@fonghsiao I feel like I have to copy paste what I said because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. If only there was a way for me to type down intonation so I can slow my words for you. "The reply towards my first post said it's unlikely for her "to lie down in that state" and I said no, it's that it's completely possible AND likely for her to follow orders." You could've honestly just left my reply alone but you chose to think of the scenario I wrote as a callous reply that's out to attack Ebony and people like her. The scenario is obviously 'terrible' BUT PLAUSIBLE.
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(Didn't read the argument in the comments but I feel like what I'm about to say might trigger other readers.) I feel like he shouldn't carelessly touch her like that. It's really bothering me that he keeps invading her personal space even after knowing that she's not mentally stable. I think it's safe to say that she doesn't like being touched carelessly because they've shown how she reacts to that. Yet, the Archduke continues to do as he pleases. I understand that his heart is in the right place but one of the things to always remember is to have patience... for the patient (lol) and to go at their pace, not yours. Obviously, so far, the author also hasn't once shown that she rejects his touches but I still feel that what I said rings true. That said, her physical injuries are nothing in comparison to her mental ones and thus should be treated with utmost care.
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@roxanneayy I believe that is why "Doctor" tells him that she wishes he wouldn't become Ebony's patron because "he doesn't get it". Everything you've said would follow for someone who comprehends the situation fully. However, he's coming at it like someone who doesn't. Caressing = Comfort in his mind. He doesn't fully comprehend the situation. You're absolutely correct that he needs to come to her and let her decide how to progress. However, he doesn't know better. In the world in which he lives, the fact he's doing what he's doing is unthinkable given the social norms and practices. That said, in general practice, what' you've described would be ideal. Hopefully, his character will learn "best practices" through exposure. (It's not ideal. It is, however, realistic.)
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@TheDragonLord Ahh yes, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't interpret the doctor's words like that when I first read it but that would align with what she's been saying. Also yeah, you're right. I agree that it's not ideal but it is realistic. I totally forgot the setting of the story and the sort of character he is. It'd be interesting to see how he changes over time. I still wish she was more active in rejecting his touches (avoiding them or at least overly cautious) though since that was something that was shown before with how she interacted with the other characters.
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@roxanneayy Her have a more assertive touch would be more ideal, however, it's likely unrealistic given the circumstances.
Rationale:
[ol]1. Extensive abuse/C-PTSD resulting from prolonged abuse, childhood abuse/developmental trauma from every instance she stood up for herself, as well as an extended time in captivity under an abusive regime that persecuted her wrongfully and due to her gender and sex.
2. She is labeled societally as a "criminal on death row temporarily stayed from her death by order from a conquering power and under the guardianship of the 3rd most powerful man in their society."
3. As a woman she has no power or rights within their society, save, perhaps, over other women. The man touching her is an Archduke, a man, and her legal "guardian". If she resists and he were to change his mind, she'd be back on death row. He could likely kill her and not suffer for it---he'd be deemed as doing society an "honor" and might even get a reward. She's acting out of self-preservation.
4. Complex trauma and Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (speaking from experience of having it as well as working with those who have it, as well as from the literature) creates a whole litany of problems, particularly disregulations that cause anything from martyr symptoms/victimization (a person unable to properly stand up for themselves; this one I know all too well), somatic disturbance (nightmares, disregulated sleep, reduced REM, reduced quality of sleep, insomnia, etc.), flashbacks, mutism (this is where the character becomes "mute" temporarily; may be followed by outbursts of violence, explosive rage, etc., and typically follows a flashback that the person may not be fully conscious of; results from the reaction of the lymbic system and the part of the brain responsible for speech not working in tandem during times of extreme duress), immune problems (typically follows long-term health problems due to dysregulated cortisol levels and hightened C-Reactive Protein amongst other chronic inflammation issues), emotional blunting, disassociation, emotional disregulation, extreme fear, disregulated fight-or-flight reaction/hypervigillance, amongst numerous other symptoms. What was until more recently labeled "Borderline Personality Disorder" has now been characterized as resulting from the DESNOS (Disorders of Extreme Stress Not Otherwise Specified) criteria of PTSD that was then fashioned (inarticulately) into BPD in the literature. Later, this was followed by a push for the new C-PTSD diagnoses, which was far more effective in describing the factors responsible for the symptoms and life detracting features of C-PTSD and related trauma disorders. Unfortunately, there's been a high degree of resistance at the top to consolidate this, despite C-PTSD being the agreed upon term amongst those most prominent in the fields of trauma research; there may be political reasons for not doing so as the history of suppression of trauma has been going on for quite some time; hell, in some of the previous literature, they once said that paternal incest of a daughter left no distinctive impacts and the way it was described made it sound as though it was almost a good thing. Check out van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score and works by Peter A. Levine and Bruce E. Levine (the former on PTSD/somatic experiencing, the latter on depression and the politics of PTSD) It's worthy reading.[/ol]
Given these and other unstated factors, it would seem reasonable that she feels incapable of resisting, which is a factor in the Archduke's efforts to help her by giving her opportunity to resist him. It's not ideal, but given how much difficulty trauma treatment and research still has in our global society---despite PTSD/C-PTSD being the only diagnosis with a known etiology/cause. You can find more in these seminal works. There's also several texts designed for practitioners that likewise talk about the complexities involved in treating C-PTSD. ex.
[ul]Treating Complex Traumatic Stress Disorders (Adults): Scientific Foundations and Therapeutic Models by Christine A. Courtois (Editor), Julian D. Ford (Editor), Bessel A. van der Kolk (Afterword), Judith Lewis Herman (Foreword) The Guilford Press; 1 edition (February 5, 2009).
Treatment of Complex Trauma: A Sequenced, Relationship-Based Approach 1st Edition by Christine A. Courtois (Author), Julian D. Ford (Author), John Briere (Foreword) The Guilford Press; 1 edition (November 7, 2012)
The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma Hardcover – September 25, 2014 by Bessel van der Kolk M.D. (Author). Viking; 1 edition (September 25, 2014).
Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence--From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror Paperback – July 7, 2015 by Judith L. Herman (Author).
Commonsense Rebellion: Taking Back Your Life from Drugs, Shrinks, Corporations, and a World Gone Crazy by Bruce E. Levine. Continuum; New edition edition (April 9, 2003).
Surviving America's Depression Epidemic: How to Find Morale, Energy, and Community in a World Gone Crazy Paperback – October 26, 2007 by Bruce E. Levine Ph.D. (Author). Chelsea Green Publishing (October 26, 2007)
Resisting Illegitimate Authority: A Thinking Person's Guide to Being an Anti-Authoritarian―Strategies, Tools, and Models Paperback – September 25, 2018 by Bruce E. Levine. AK Press (September 25, 2018).
Get Up, Stand Up: Uniting Populists, Energizing the Defeated, and Battling the Corporate Elite Paperback – April 11, 2011 by Bruce E. Levine Ph.D. (Author). Chelsea Green Publishing (April 11, 2011).
Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma[/b] by Peter A. Levine (Author), Ann Frederick (Author, Editor). North Atlantic Books; First edition (September 8, 1997).
In an Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness by Peter A. Levine PhD (Author), Gabor Mate (Foreword). North Atlantic Books; 1 edition (October 30, 2012).
Trauma and Memory: Brain and Body in a Search for the Living Past: A Practical Guide for Understanding and Working with Traumatic Memory by Peter A. Levine Phd (Author), Bessel A. van der Kolk (Foreword). North Atlantic Books (October 27, 2015).
Healing Trauma: A Pioneering Program for Restoring the Wisdom of Your Body by Peter A. Levine PhD (Author). Sounds True; Pap/Com edition (October 1, 2008).
When the Body Says No: Understanding the Stress-disease Connection by Gabor Maté M.D. Wiley; 1 edition (May 2, 2008).
Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld (Author), Gabor Maté (Author). Ballantine Books; Reprint edition (November 19, 2008).
Scattered: How Attention Deficit Disorder Originates and What You Can Do About It by Gabor Maté. Plume (August 1, 2000). (Trauma as a cause and framework for ADHD/ADD.)
[/ul]
There's obviously other literature out there, but for those reading either suffering from this or interested in it from a literary standpoint, this offers a useful framework for exploration. :3
This is why I say that the issue are far more complex than is often demonstrated in fiction---as well as unrealistic. However, her reactions here appear genuine.
Rationale:
[ol]1. Extensive abuse/C-PTSD resulting from prolonged abuse, childhood abuse/developmental trauma from every instance she stood up for herself, as well as an extended time in captivity under an abusive regime that persecuted her wrongfully and due to her gender and sex.
2. She is labeled societally as a "criminal on death row temporarily stayed from her death by order from a conquering power and under the guardianship of the 3rd most powerful man in their society."
3. As a woman she has no power or rights within their society, save, perhaps, over other women. The man touching her is an Archduke, a man, and her legal "guardian". If she resists and he were to change his mind, she'd be back on death row. He could likely kill her and not suffer for it---he'd be deemed as doing society an "honor" and might even get a reward. She's acting out of self-preservation.
4. Complex trauma and Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (speaking from experience of having it as well as working with those who have it, as well as from the literature) creates a whole litany of problems, particularly disregulations that cause anything from martyr symptoms/victimization (a person unable to properly stand up for themselves; this one I know all too well), somatic disturbance (nightmares, disregulated sleep, reduced REM, reduced quality of sleep, insomnia, etc.), flashbacks, mutism (this is where the character becomes "mute" temporarily; may be followed by outbursts of violence, explosive rage, etc., and typically follows a flashback that the person may not be fully conscious of; results from the reaction of the lymbic system and the part of the brain responsible for speech not working in tandem during times of extreme duress), immune problems (typically follows long-term health problems due to dysregulated cortisol levels and hightened C-Reactive Protein amongst other chronic inflammation issues), emotional blunting, disassociation, emotional disregulation, extreme fear, disregulated fight-or-flight reaction/hypervigillance, amongst numerous other symptoms. What was until more recently labeled "Borderline Personality Disorder" has now been characterized as resulting from the DESNOS (Disorders of Extreme Stress Not Otherwise Specified) criteria of PTSD that was then fashioned (inarticulately) into BPD in the literature. Later, this was followed by a push for the new C-PTSD diagnoses, which was far more effective in describing the factors responsible for the symptoms and life detracting features of C-PTSD and related trauma disorders. Unfortunately, there's been a high degree of resistance at the top to consolidate this, despite C-PTSD being the agreed upon term amongst those most prominent in the fields of trauma research; there may be political reasons for not doing so as the history of suppression of trauma has been going on for quite some time; hell, in some of the previous literature, they once said that paternal incest of a daughter left no distinctive impacts and the way it was described made it sound as though it was almost a good thing. Check out van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score and works by Peter A. Levine and Bruce E. Levine (the former on PTSD/somatic experiencing, the latter on depression and the politics of PTSD) It's worthy reading.[/ol]
Given these and other unstated factors, it would seem reasonable that she feels incapable of resisting, which is a factor in the Archduke's efforts to help her by giving her opportunity to resist him. It's not ideal, but given how much difficulty trauma treatment and research still has in our global society---despite PTSD/C-PTSD being the only diagnosis with a known etiology/cause. You can find more in these seminal works. There's also several texts designed for practitioners that likewise talk about the complexities involved in treating C-PTSD. ex.
[ul]Treating Complex Traumatic Stress Disorders (Adults): Scientific Foundations and Therapeutic Models by Christine A. Courtois (Editor), Julian D. Ford (Editor), Bessel A. van der Kolk (Afterword), Judith Lewis Herman (Foreword) The Guilford Press; 1 edition (February 5, 2009).
Treatment of Complex Trauma: A Sequenced, Relationship-Based Approach 1st Edition by Christine A. Courtois (Author), Julian D. Ford (Author), John Briere (Foreword) The Guilford Press; 1 edition (November 7, 2012)
The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma Hardcover – September 25, 2014 by Bessel van der Kolk M.D. (Author). Viking; 1 edition (September 25, 2014).
Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence--From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror Paperback – July 7, 2015 by Judith L. Herman (Author).
Commonsense Rebellion: Taking Back Your Life from Drugs, Shrinks, Corporations, and a World Gone Crazy by Bruce E. Levine. Continuum; New edition edition (April 9, 2003).
Surviving America's Depression Epidemic: How to Find Morale, Energy, and Community in a World Gone Crazy Paperback – October 26, 2007 by Bruce E. Levine Ph.D. (Author). Chelsea Green Publishing (October 26, 2007)
Resisting Illegitimate Authority: A Thinking Person's Guide to Being an Anti-Authoritarian―Strategies, Tools, and Models Paperback – September 25, 2018 by Bruce E. Levine. AK Press (September 25, 2018).
Get Up, Stand Up: Uniting Populists, Energizing the Defeated, and Battling the Corporate Elite Paperback – April 11, 2011 by Bruce E. Levine Ph.D. (Author). Chelsea Green Publishing (April 11, 2011).
Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma[/b] by Peter A. Levine (Author), Ann Frederick (Author, Editor). North Atlantic Books; First edition (September 8, 1997).
In an Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness by Peter A. Levine PhD (Author), Gabor Mate (Foreword). North Atlantic Books; 1 edition (October 30, 2012).
Trauma and Memory: Brain and Body in a Search for the Living Past: A Practical Guide for Understanding and Working with Traumatic Memory by Peter A. Levine Phd (Author), Bessel A. van der Kolk (Foreword). North Atlantic Books (October 27, 2015).
Healing Trauma: A Pioneering Program for Restoring the Wisdom of Your Body by Peter A. Levine PhD (Author). Sounds True; Pap/Com edition (October 1, 2008).
When the Body Says No: Understanding the Stress-disease Connection by Gabor Maté M.D. Wiley; 1 edition (May 2, 2008).
Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld (Author), Gabor Maté (Author). Ballantine Books; Reprint edition (November 19, 2008).
Scattered: How Attention Deficit Disorder Originates and What You Can Do About It by Gabor Maté. Plume (August 1, 2000). (Trauma as a cause and framework for ADHD/ADD.)
[/ul]
There's obviously other literature out there, but for those reading either suffering from this or interested in it from a literary standpoint, this offers a useful framework for exploration. :3
This is why I say that the issue are far more complex than is often demonstrated in fiction---as well as unrealistic. However, her reactions here appear genuine.
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@TheDragonLord Wah that's a lot to read. x.X That's a lot of references you provided.
First off, I have to apologize that I didn't explain myself well when I asked her to be more "assertive". What I really meant was "involuntary reaction". Honestly, it was a personal preference as I felt that since she's already demonstrated her fear of being touched (or her general fear of higher authority) with other members of the household (not just the lady), I thought it would be nice to see that carried with all the characters she's to meet that she regards as powerful (or have power over her) within that household. (Basically, I just mean that there was never a demonstration of struggle whether physical or mental when it came to interactions with the ml and I would've like to see/read that.) That said, I totally understand that there are different reactions to different authorities depending on how her past is and how that moment registers for her. It was just a bit confusing- for example, me- I'm not well-knowledgeable about trauma from abuse but I do understand trauma. I don't think everyone who reads this would have extensive knowledge (which I'm really impressed by the breath you've provided!) and her reaction to him would come off strange to a regular reader. Since it's a fictional story, something like that could actually help BUT that said, since there's still sooo much to this arc, the attempt at realism would actually be really nice to see. And since my knowledge of the matter has increased by a smidge thanks to your Infos, I'd really like to see an in-depth breakdown/explanation/look into her personality and past in the realistic direction.
Because this is a fictional work, I'm skeptical about how realistic they'll go. I mean, did she really not react to his touches because of what you said or because the writer just simply chose not to go that route? You know...
First off, I have to apologize that I didn't explain myself well when I asked her to be more "assertive". What I really meant was "involuntary reaction". Honestly, it was a personal preference as I felt that since she's already demonstrated her fear of being touched (or her general fear of higher authority) with other members of the household (not just the lady), I thought it would be nice to see that carried with all the characters she's to meet that she regards as powerful (or have power over her) within that household. (Basically, I just mean that there was never a demonstration of struggle whether physical or mental when it came to interactions with the ml and I would've like to see/read that.) That said, I totally understand that there are different reactions to different authorities depending on how her past is and how that moment registers for her. It was just a bit confusing- for example, me- I'm not well-knowledgeable about trauma from abuse but I do understand trauma. I don't think everyone who reads this would have extensive knowledge (which I'm really impressed by the breath you've provided!) and her reaction to him would come off strange to a regular reader. Since it's a fictional story, something like that could actually help BUT that said, since there's still sooo much to this arc, the attempt at realism would actually be really nice to see. And since my knowledge of the matter has increased by a smidge thanks to your Infos, I'd really like to see an in-depth breakdown/explanation/look into her personality and past in the realistic direction.
Because this is a fictional work, I'm skeptical about how realistic they'll go. I mean, did she really not react to his touches because of what you said or because the writer just simply chose not to go that route? You know...
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@roxanneayy, I believe that will be what we discover soon enough. That said, you're very welcome! :3 Characterization of characters in works of fiction should in my opinion attempt to be as realistic as possible with their characterization because that is what makes the stories feel real and helps readers identify/maintain a suspension of disbelief. I think the best stories/most well written/composed/etc., are those that most effectively develop the characters into believable fashions---these stories, I think, tend to feel the most real, and will therefore have the most substantial impact on the reader(s) on account of that fact.
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hey dude maybe dont loom over her when asking serious questions about her trauma
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I like the psychological details.
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I don't know too much about trauma but I think he should take tiny steps, not getting physical with her and overstepping her boundaries as soon as she enters the mansion. He should gain her trust first.
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Yeah, some people doesn't bother investigate detailed what happened in the incident. It's pretty common thing in corrupted place. Moreover for what I see, in that era they restricted many thing for woman life. Middle age era is worst thing for women as they almost don't have their own choice, especially noble one.
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@SheilaSkypelt yikes i agree, for someone that's just come out of an incredibly harsh surrounding I don't think physically 'pinning' her and making her feel trapped while prying about what is most likely the most traumatic experience she's had exactly healthy for someone with so much trauma.
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I’m crying :’(
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