Machikado Mazoku - Vol. 5 Ch. 62 - The Unique Tag Team! Infiltrate Crimson’s Dreams!

[Lilliwyt]

Oh, is it time for the BD show ?

 

[Loona_Roses]

By gosh this mange and especially this chapter is so spemdidly written, the foreshadowing, the unused but cherished birthday presents, the subtle background detail, both in art and in words.
I love this manga, it is far better than anyone deserves.

 

[Madcat6204]

@BugDemon

And the "brainwashing" is just quite literally cleaning negative feelings. Not actual brainwashing.

I mean, that's "brainwashing" in the most literal sense: she went inside Hon's brain and washed it out.

More seriously, Shamiko used mental powers to change Hon's actions to something Shamiko prefers. Could she had done this through just talking things out with Hon normally? It's really hard to say: Hon was pretty worked up and may not have listened. Hon even says in the dream that she doesn't understand why she went along with Shamiko so easily when she normally would have thought of Shamiko as an enemy. By accessing someone's dreams, Shamiko can directly influence their subconscious.

If you can use mental powers to change someone's opinion and/or behaviors into what you think is "right" is that ok to do? Would you like it if someone did that to you?

I'm not saying she was wrong to do this here, but I'm not sure we can really truly say that this wasn't brainwashing. Even if the result is what would have happened if Hon had been in a calm state of mind and able to discuss things reasonably, the fact that she wasn't, and that Shamiko used her powers to put her into that state of mind, still makes this a form of branwashing.

 

[GurrenPrime5]

@KZO are you saying that every person named Josh is actually from ancient Mesopotamia?
@Madcat6204 as much as I love the pun, I think the end result might be more similar to hypnotism than full on brainwashing. Hypnotism can make someone do something they wouldn’t think to do, but not anything they’d be opposed to doing, while brainwashing can completely overwrite someone’s personality. Lilith has stated that Shamiko could brainwash someone if she really wanted to, but we haven’t seen anything of that scale succeed yet.

 

[MidnighTea]

All I'm going to say is give this manga enough credit not to leave the ethical/moral implications of what Shamiko is doing up in the air when all is said and done. Worse written stories would just push on and ignore those questions, but we're dealing with a better class of writing.

 

[KZO]

@GurrenPrime5 While it's true this is closer to hypnotism than brainwashing, this manga calls both of them the same thing because both are done with the same power, so might as well call it a single name even though I'm aware they're different things, believe me I'm really a big fan of both, I know what I'm talking about for this one. And it's always presented with Shami literally washing the brain every time it happens to get the point across so even characters like Ugallu get it.

 

[Evron]

Ok, that's a very kyubey-like fish, using a kid's troubles to take advantage of her. Bad fish!... being made into sashimi sounds like a fitting punishment.

If it's Shamiko, it shouldn't be that hard to negotiate with Lico. She will likely demand something in return nonetheless.

... BTW, Momo began to heal after Shamiko's "brain wash" (I also do not see it as actual brainwash though), I doubt Hon will have a problem with it.

 

[Dudley]

The fact that future momo shown as Shamiko's vassal greatly delights me

 

[BugDemon]

@Madcat6204 Yeah I know, this joke's been made since Momo's first "brainwashing" lol

Brainwashing implies forcing your will or an order on someone. Shamiko did neither. She cleared Hon-san's "bad mood" sure, but that could have been achieved any number of ways and just because this made it easier to have a reasonable talk, you really can't pretend that Hon-san wouldn't have listened to a conversation in the real world beforehand. If Mikan and Riko hadn't attacked her like a couple of savages, she would have definitely talked it out with Momo and Shamiko as long as Riko wasn't there to taunt her.

Shamiko did do nothing more than talk to her. She didn't manipulate her or force her into anything, she just got them into a position where they could calmly discuss it. Her powers had no affect on Hon-san's decision itself. If Shamiko had manipulated her mind into making that decision or forcing her will on Hon-san, then that would be proper brainwashing. This was not much more than counseling, which incidentally is more accurate to what Shamiko uses her power for.

Your moral question would only apply if that's what she did, which it is not. Calming someone down is not brainwashing in any sense. At best you could compare it to anesthesia. The decision was completely in line with Hon-san's personality and thoughts, she just was able to think properly instead of fighting for her life.

@KZO
For someone who is allegedly an expert you have a very poor understanding of what brainwashing is. For instance the literal washing of the brain is supposed to mislead you in the first place, it's not supposed to drive the point home. If you didn't get that, then I hope you will in the next chapters.
Also many of her suggestions were not signified by brain cleaning at all (Momo disliking the scuttling of Neo Ancestor Mk. 2 or buying cola).

@Evron

... BTW, Momo began to heal after Shamiko's "brain wash"

That was not necessarily because of her mind getting cleaned up though. Momo was already on her way to healing because of hanging out with Shamiko and finding a lead on Sakura. I think people overestimate how much that clean-up really influenced. It made Momo's nightmares go away, which helped her be more relaxed for sure, but it didn't alter her at all. She would have become attached to Shamiko either way, because of her actions.

 

[Lhmac]

Wow, the fish needling Hon into killing just because there's a demon (and saying it like it's a game getting points) lends more evidence to the Light Clan being sinister.

And wow, @BugDemon, in case you didn't notice, you're being a huge jerk here, getting emotional in the middle of everyone else being calm and rational. I'd like to think you don't mean it that way, you're just worked up, but you're a half step away from needless insults. Other people can have opinions different than you, that's okay. Both yours and their arguments make sense, but your tone makes theirs seem more rational even if they're not.

 

[BugDemon]

@Lhmac I would like you to quantify in what way I'm being emotional. KZO's arguments are often rather unreasonable in their approach, so I treat their arguments exactly that way. If someone believes them to be more reasonable based on tone rather than content... well that's pretty shallow. To attack an idea is not the same as attacking the one who holds it. I know the distinction well enough. Unless someone makes an idea their identity, I cannot hurt them by refuting it.
Everyone else I was completely polite toward I believe.

 

[KZO]

@BugDemon Looks like you're being the one being mislead here, I'm really an expert on this topic and you forgot something vital. Lilith said the first time Shami went dream diving that people are more vulnerable and easier to be manipulated in their dreams, while it looks like a normal conversation and at first glance there is no reason to believe that conversation couldn't happen with her awake, the fact that both she points out how weird it was that she accepted what Shamiko said and Shami also cleaned all the mud in the brain confirms she indeed manipulated her on a certain level, whether it's called brainwashing or hypnotism it doesn't matter, the point is that "Shamiko's conversation" was more than just a talk, there is no reason to point out at all that is weird she went along with what Shamiko said unless they want to indeed tell the audience that Shamiko is manipulating her without realizing, there is no reason to combine it with the memory cleaning either. Don't say she went along with Shamiko because she's the boss of the town or something dumb like that, she doesn't know Shami. And please don't bring Momo into this because anything regarding Momo and what Shami did to her is spoiler for the chapters left in this volume, and you know it.

And no, I won't discuss spoilers even if you put them in spoiler tags, I don't open spoiler tags. Wait until this volume ends.

 

[thofheinz]

Seems to me that the author is making a simple point: when Shamiko wields her influence, her actions are defined by her benevolence and primarily oriented toward help. The traditional insidious behavior Lilith took for granted is over, Shamiko pretty much redefines the task. Basically, she's a therapist.

 

[Lilliwyt]

That comment section never fail to entertain.

 

[captainaeroman]

@Lilliwyt Wouldn't be a Machikado Mazoku comments section without @BugDemon being an asshole to everyone they disagree with lol

 

[Morsealworth]

The most literal braimwashing I saw in quite a while.

 

[dctreborn]

Ogura is looking more like Ooyodo each day. Yodo, when did you learn black magic?

 

[CookieMonster]

.

 

[BugDemon]

@KZO I already explained in detail why it's not brainwashing to Madcat6204. You have an inherent lack of understanding for what Itou is going for narratively. I will not repeat myself. You can claim to be an expert as much as you want, that doesn't mean anyone will believe you.
I didn't discuss spoilers and neither do I intent to.

@thofheinz
You pretty much got the gist of it.

@captainaeroman And once again you fail to contribute anything worthwhile, aside form letting your bias flow for no reason. Good job.

 

[KZO]

@BugDemon I know what you explained, I don't agree, you couldn't recognize brainwashing if it hit you in the face.