MangaDex needs to stop pretending :rejected:

[Irian]

Oh, those EVIL TRANSLATORS! They provide us daily dose of translations and are so shameless to demand being treating like human beings, that put some work in it!
Have they not shame?! We have bunch of laws that forbid them doing it, but they still translate, what an army of deviants!
They should work their as*es off, and be happy that we completely ignore their existence. Sounds like great idea.
...And sarcasm mode off and international laws aside.
Translator puts real work into manga, and while it is grey area, it should still be treated like property. He should still have basic rights about translation - to be credited, and to have power to remove his work.
And Mangadex is place that offers those rights. It makes this page special, it is the reason of it's success. Throw it away, and fall to level of new batoto.

 

[FireFish5000]

@zerimas

I don't how old you are, but I remember when then weren't things like streaming and aggregators. When people wanted to distribute fansubs of anime they had to use things like torrents.

They still do, as it one of the most reliable methods of sharing the translation without having to pay for a hosting server or using an ad infested dl site. (even a single group's fansubs can easily take up several TB of disk space. Trying to share this much data with thousands of users from a centralized server is a bit daunting/expensive)

Actually, I think doki even tried to promote anidex as a replacement when the old nyaa went down. I think it is safe to say that didn't take off. (sort of surprising, since the group had far more experience with fansubbing than scanlating). And I am pretty sure streaming and aggregators were still there, though I have no clue how long ago you are talking about. Streaming has gotten cheaper, but is nothing new. I can go back at least to 2006 and say I was streaming anime from some site (13 years ago. If we double that, the internet would have just become publicly availible). I found bakabt ~2008 bc when streaming haruhi, I was getting different playlist from different sites and was trying to research original/correct order.

I am ~4 years younger than the public internet..... To think we were so close in age.

 

[zerimas]

@Irian

and while it is grey area

No, it isn't. It is actually 100% illegal. It isn't a grey area at all.

Translator puts real work into manga, and while it is grey area, it should still be treated like property.

No, that isn't how things work. If they publish it they have no business dictating how people use it. Why should they get special protections? They aren't entitled to anything at all.

It is 100% voluntary. They aren't entitled to anything. By your logic women would have to sleep with any man who was nice to them . After all they put in the effort therefore they deserve "credit". They worked their asses off being a "nice guy" right? It would be wrong to just ignore them after all that, right?

I'm glad people translate manga. However, I am not going bend over backwards thanking them for something they offered to do for free without me even asking. They have no right to demand anything from anyone.

 

[Irian]

@zerimas
Actually, thera are protections. In english they are called "moral laws" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights).
Depending on definition, and country, translations are subject of those laws (that is why i used "gray area", as jury usually deliberates about "creativity" of translation, and etc.)
So if we are talking about law: taking translation, and not crediting, is crime.
It does not matter, if translator did it illegally, it does not give anybody right, to steal it.
Stealing stolen property is punishable. And it works just like that in copyright (eg. case of plagiarising plagiarised work (https://retractionwatch.com/2010/11/24/plagiarists-plagiarized-a-daisy-chain-of-retractions-at-anesthesia-analgesia/ and other funny situations)).
Btw: in my country, so called "fan translations" are 100% legal, as long as there is no official translation to given language, and translator does not gain profit.

EDIT: Geez, if You want to use idiotic analogies, we can do it all day. Example:
Author wrote a book. Didn't ask me, if i need it. Posted it for free on his blog (it actually happens). I liked it...
But hey! He published it! He has no right to dictate me anything, about what i'm going to do with it!
According to Your arguments, he is not entitled, to be credited as author. Better. Stealing it, and publishing it with my watermark over every page is also ok.
(Thanking author for creating nice story? What!? He doesn't deserve it, because he shared.)
The same with all bands, that share their music on eg. Youtube. They don't deserve credit too? How generous...

 

[zerimas]

@Irian

Alright. Go create a ROM hack of Super Mario Bros. Translate all the menus from Japanese to fucking Esperanto or Latin or something. Then proceed to sue everyone who uses against you wishes "translation". See how far you get in court of law. Also, good luck dealing with Nintendo. You don't magically somehow have the rights to the distribution of Super Mario Bros just because you translated into Esperanto.

The subjects you have linked have nothing to with scanlation whatsoever. Also we aren't dealing theft—we are dealing with copyright infringement. I am not a lawyer, but I am pretty sure you can't copyright your illegal translation. That wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. It would also infringe on the original rights holders. The original author wouldn't be able to get unauthorized translations removed because according to you those are protected somehow.

The scanlators does not have any rights. If I "steal" a scanlation both the scanlator and I are guilty of copyright infringement. How could the scanlator possibly take legal action against me? What sense would that make? Why would the creator of something blatantly illegal have any rights to it whatsoever? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You can't claim to have rights to something that isn't a legitimate derivative work. If I make a drawing of Illya and someone uses it without my permission that is copyright infringement. It is infringement because I own the rights to that drawing. If someone take my scanlation of Fate/kalied and uses without my permission there is nothing I can do about it. No country that adheres to international copyright law is going to consider my scanlation to legitimately be my intellectual property. Scanlations are copyright infringement. They aren't your intellectual property. You can't dictate what people do with them. If someone does steal them then they are guilty of copyright infringement against the original rights holder too. They haven't infringed on the scanlators rights because they don't have any.

You're engaging in some serious mental gymnastics. You're basically saying "fuck you" to the original creators while giving all the power to scanlators. Scanlators don't hold the rights to anything. Those rights belong to the original creator of the work or whomever they've sold those rights to. Therefore scanlators cannot justly complain about people using their scanlations against their wishes. MD enforcing scanlators' claims to stuff is total bullshit. They have no rights. They never did.

 

[ItsQuote]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/101

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.

translating manga into another language isn't illegal, and the translation would be a legitimate derivative work according to US copyright law (YMMV elsewhere) and would be protected.

you might have a bone to pick with the entire scanlation process, but please don't say that all of it is illegal.

 

[Pika]

Or just appreciate that there are people doing translations for free and stop yapping about it!
Pretty sure the scanlators can decide where they want to place their translations, but that's just my opinion.

Well, if you say it like that, doesn't that mean that the pens and ink that you used to draw with also hold the rights then? Since they are the true origin of the work
Hell, blame the trees too for giving us the paper to draw with!

Can this thread be locked before the hellfire becomes worse? That Rejected tag means something

 

[zerimas]

@ItsQuote

You're actually totally wrong. The original author has the rights to all translations. Read about it here: https://copyright.uslegal.com/enumerated-categories-of-copyrightable-works/translation/

I'll highlight important bits for you.

A translation is basically a derivative work. Only the copyright owner can authorize a translation that will be distributed. This includes works that are translated into another language and distributed in parts of the world where that language is spoken. Derivative works are infringing if they are not created with the permission of the copyright holder. Thus, a work of fiction or a best-selling biography cannot be translated into another language and distributed without the original author’s or copyright holder’s permission. If the author authorizes a translation, the author owns the copyright in the translation since the translation is a work for hire. This is because in case of a work for hire, the employing party is the author. In fact, it is not even necessary that the translator’s name be revealed in the work.

Scanlations are not done with the consent of the author. Therefore they are illegal. Your link just defines what a derivative work is. It doesn't comment on the legality of it. You are flatout wrong if you think scanlation isn't copyright violation. Maybe I used the phrase "derivative work" incorrectly. I'm actually not a copyright lawyer if you can believe that. In any case you fucking wrong. Scanlation is copyright infringement. You are the one spreading bullshit.

 

[zerimas]

@Pika

Pretty sure the scanlators can decide where they want to place their translations, but that's just my opinion.

Well you opinion is wrong.

Well, if you say it like that, doesn't that mean that the pens and ink that you used to draw with also hold the rights then? Since they are the true origin of the work
Hell, blame the trees too for giving us the paper to draw with!

Now you are just being facile. You know that isn't how intellectual property works. Inanimate object can't hold the rights to something. Besides the pens don't do anything unless the author uses them to make something. You actually have nothing useful to say.

Can this thread be locked before the hellfire becomes worse? That Rejected tag means something

Yeah. It means that the admins are more interested in creating a space where scanlators can play out their delusional power fantasies than actually creating a site that isn't garbage to read manga on.

 

[ItsQuote]

@zerimas hey, thanks for the link. good to know a little bit more about this rather complicated topic. two things though:

1) that specifically calls out distributed works, which is a very important distinction to make. you seem to be hammering home the point that the entire process is somehow embroiled in illegality, which is absolutely not the case. i see a very clear distinction between "translation" and "scanlation." and again, a translation is a derivative work and is copyrighted. uploading your translation onto the internet without consent of the copyright holder, regardless of format, seems like it violates copyright law. i never said otherwise.
2) your implication that all scanlation occurs without the consent of the author is false. at least one group i know of (https://mangadex.org/thread/72217) does so with consent of the author.

also: you are coming on really fucking strong, dude. seriously, chill out. we get how passionately you feel about this but none of your outbursts are necessary.

 

[Teasday]

_{@zerimas posted:}

The focus should be on creating a usable site. It is total bullshit for there to be missing chapters just because MD policy is to protect the feelings of a bunch of pirates.

And as Plykiya thoroughly explained and you mostly ignored, having a usable and, more importantly, sustainable site is exactly what the current system is in place for.

MangaDex exists to encourage the scanlation scene by providing scanlators an audience and the audience scanlations. It's a balancing act between the two. Ignore the scanlators, and not only will a good chunk of the staff leave, the audience also gets pissed off and leaves. Piss off the audience instead, and scanlators have no reason to engage with the site. In either way MD loses its donations and either dies off or becomes the ad-ridden aggregator number #13562436, and the scanlation scene becomes disjointed and relatively quiet until hopefully the next similar site comes along. Then we can enjoy this same conversation all over again.

If you guys want to play internet copyright lawyers, go right ahead. It doesn't really have any real bearing on the actual subject though.

 

[zerimas]

@Teasday

Piss off the audience instead, and scanlators have no reason to engage with the site.

Well I am the audience and I am pissed off. I think it is nonsense that MD is going out its way to protect the feelings of scanlators.

MangaDex exists to encourage the scanlation scene by providing scanlators an audience and the audience scanlations

Please explain to me what part of removing scans that Mangastream has already done falls under the description of providing "the audience scanlations"?

 

[zerimas]

@ItsQuote

your implication that all scanlation occurs without the consent of the author is false. at least one group i know of (https://mangadex.org/thread/72217) does so with consent of the author.

I never said all of it. You are right. Some of it does occur with the original author's consent. I don't know which ones exactly. I know that TheElusiveTaco for instance is the provider of official translations. I mentioned TheElusiveTaco specifically in my earlier posts.

also: you are coming on really fucking strong, dude. seriously, chill out. we get how passionately you feel about this but none of your outbursts are necessary.

Fine. I don't actually really have anymore to say on the subject. I just think that the approach MD takes isn't ideologically consistent, which is what I said in my original post. I feel like MD is unduly giving scanlators "rights" which they do not deserve. If they are going to such lengths to accommodate scanlators, they should extend the same consideration to actual legal rights holders. If violating scanlators "rights" is unacceptable then violating the legal rights of whoever actually owns the licensed translations (regardless of whether they are currently monetizing their content or not) ought to be unacceptable as well.

 

[gonn92]

deleted comment

 

[zerimas]

@gonn92

so.... this all boils down to you wanting to read older mangastream chapters? and got salty that they got remove? you do know you can read them in other sites right? you also already got told that your petition, if you can even call it that, got rejected so why do you keep on complaining?

Can you even read? It is about MD being ideologically inconsistent and extending unearned entitlements to scanlators. Either everyone's "rights" are respected (in which case no copyrighted material should be allowed on the site at all) or you don't respect anyone's "rights" and just allow everything onto the site. Mangastream was example of their policy is inconsistent (lending legitimacy to the idea that scanlators have "rights" while not bothering to respect companies actual legal rights). How you reduced what I said to the idea that I'm "salty" about some Mangastream chapters is beyond me.

 

[ixlone]

Already rejected.

Plykiya's post covers our stance on this matter.

Thread locked.