Miyu-chan wa Zutto Tomodachi - Ch. 13 - Return of the Mother

[Doomroar]

We are talking about people throwing already born children in the trash can. Whether or not you can get an abortion prior to that point has no bearing on throwing an already born child away like garbage.

Yes we are talking about people giving birth to a child and leaving them to die by abandoning them, i already covered the reasons why such things happen, but you refuse to face the reality of the situation by thinking of them as irrelevant

Abortion and other forms of pregnancy prevention, is important to the discussion because it is one of the bigger ways to prevent the situation of child abandonment all together

Which still doesn't change the fact that someone putting a baby into a garbage bin is leaving them to die by exposure. It does not change the fact that a whole life, that just about everyone in the present day agrees is a human life and person and whatever else we are, is being left to die. You were able to recognize the life of the born child earlier, but it doesn't appear to be sinking in that-- whatever the circumstance of the mother-- they are still killing a child. Their child, moreover. A life, gone, and we're supposed to care that it happened because the mother for whatever reason didn't want to have a child?

Yes we are supposed to care about the reason why the woman didn't want to have a child, that's how we get to understand why the phenomenon happens, and work into preventing it from occurring all together

Assuming that the woman is a child murder just because they are evil, doesn't answers anything, nor offers a solution to the problem

Would you try to argue this with someone who was left to die in a dumpster as a newborn?

Yes i would, an abandoned child will eventually ask themselves why their progenitor didn't love them, why she didn't want to be a mom, and why she left them out to die

The answer to those questions need to holistically address the whole story that lead to them being abandoned in order for them to gain closure, and be able to move on, would i have this conversation with them as a child? no, as a teenager? no, as a young adult? maybe if they are mature enough to handle how ugly the world is

However just telling them "well bad luck, you draw the short stick in life and the woman that gave birth to you was a psycho, so there's nothing to do, she just was a bad woman" does nothing to help such existential crisis

In fact it makes things even worse, because now on top of the complex that comes from being abandoned, you are implanting the idea that their direct ancestor has a mental illness that can't be treated and that can be inherited, so now they also have to live with the fear of thinking that they may be a psycho too, which is both false and also a very shitty thing to do, at that point may as well make up something and tell them that their mother died in labor

You are having a conversation about how to supposedly prevent this, but that still has nothing to do with the circumstance where the child is born and then is left to die, suffocating while bearing pathogens and the elements.

It has everything to do with the circumstances of the child being born and left to die, because those are the factors that need to be changed in order to prevent the situation from happening, one of them being the termination of an unwanted pregnancy

The others being the implementation of, spread, accessibility, funding, and education of a system of adoption for unwanted children, that wont criminalize nor stigmatize the women giving away their kid

Another being the transformation of the social perception regarding unwanted pregnancies and when these are carried to term the adoption of unwanted children

The lack of ability to get an abortion does not, not even minimally, justify killing an already born child-- not unless you want to argue for post-birth abortion, perhaps to "make up" for whatever abortion they apparently weren't able to have.

The fuck is post birth abortion? are you stupid? stop wasting my time with nonsense and take this seriously

Because they killed a kid. Their kid. What they wanted, is separate from the fact that they left their already born child to die. Nobody forced them to commit murder-- the circumstance of "not wanting to become a mother" isn't a force, because there are multiple options to take that don't involve killing kids.

For most of the world there are not other options, as i already explained on my previous comment, for most of the world the options that a mother has when faced with an unwanted pregnancy are just 2, being forced to become a mother, or abandoning the child, depending of where the child is abandoned the woman will then go to prison or the baby will die

Your fantasy world in which there are multiple options and alternatives in which a woman can safely give birth to a baby they don't want to have, and then hand it out to an orphanage, just doesn't exist, in fact i already told you that for the Japanese case that the very act you are proposing as an alternative is considered a crime punishable by law

The so called alternative is for the woman to go to prison for half a decade for giving the child away to an orphanage, which sure is a better alternative compared to abandoning the child in a box to die...

But that way of thinking is stupid, it completely ignores the situation of the woman forced to give birth, (and before you even say that "no one is forcing them to give birth" abortions are also illegal in Japan), and completely separates itself from the circumstances of having to end up with a life ruined due to something that they never wanted

Also you keep saying that it is "their kid", there's something you don't understand at a fundamental psychological level, a mother is not something that is created automatically when a woman becomes pregnant, there's no magical link or bond between a woman and the baby gestating inside them, i already told you this and you completely ignored it because you clearly don't care

A mother is a role that demands hard work, care, love, and a lot of will and investment, just getting pregnant and giving birth doesn't creates a mother, if you fail to understand this you will never be able to do anything to properly address this issue, because you will never get why someone wouldn't automatically care for someone they are giving birth to

For women with unwanted pregnancies, they are not giving birth to "their child", they are giving birth to a stranger they wish had never been in their lives, victims of sexual abuse, even go as far as to refer to the unwanted babies as parasites, that's the level of distance that is psychologically formed between a woman and a baby product of an unwanted pregnancy, this can happen to anyone, is not a sign of psychopathy, or a product of an evil woman being born unable to feel empathy and care, it is a product of sexual abuse and a lack of support towards the victim, to the point that they end up forced to give birth in a toilet and then forced to either keep the baby they never wanted, end up in prison, or abandon the whole thing

Why would then, under such circumstances, a woman go to prison, risk death at childbirth, or change the entire course of their lives, for the sake of someone they perceive as a parasite that is ruining their life? the answer is that they wouldn't, as we can see for the phenomenon known as child abandonment

For children to stop being thrown away and being left to die at birth, we need to change all the factors that lead to the process happening, all the way from the moment of conception, passing by gestation, birth, and all the way till the very moment no matter how many years it may be that a child will find themselves orphaned, because child abandonment doesn't limits itself to newborns, it can happen at any age for as long as the child remains dependent on an adult for survival

 

[Eighty-six]

Yes we are talking about people giving birth to a child and leaving them to die by abandoning them, i already covered the reasons why such things happen, but you refuse to face the reality of the situation by thinking of them as irrelevant

No, I can recognize "why" someone would deliberately throw their born and living child away like garbage. My point is that it's all irrelevant to the fact that they killed a person, that they killed a person trumps everything else at hand, and that they generally aren't even forced to kill a person. The killing was premeditated, and the motive is that they didn't "want" the child. It is murder. It would be no less murder if the child was one year old, or two years old, or older than that.

Supposing they can't abandon their child at an orphanage or a safe haven zone without being charged with child abandonment, what sense does it make to abandon them in a way that will definitely kill them so they can also be charged with murder? That's not just "not wanting the baby" anymore-- it's a profound disregard for human life.

Also you keep saying that it is "their kid", there's something you don't understand at a fundamental psychological level, a mother is not something that is created automatically when a woman becomes pregnant, there's no magical link or bond between a woman and the baby gestating inside them

The bonds are logical, biological, legal, social, and (normally) psychological.

In every way that matters, a woman who gestates a child is (and has always been considered) the mother of that child. Their parent. That's why we can prosecute them for child abuse when they abuse their children. Without any kind of transfer of parenthood, it doesn't at all matter what they "feel".

For women with unwanted pregnancies, they are not giving birth to "their child", they are giving birth to a stranger they wish had never been in their lives, victims of sexual abuse, even go as far as to refer to the unwanted babies as parasites, that's the level of distance that is psychologically formed between a woman and a baby product of an unwanted pregnancy, this can happen to anyone, is not a sign of psychopathy, or a product of an evil woman being born unable to feel empathy and care, it is a product of sexual abuse and a lack of support towards the victim,

Firstly, not even most unwanted pregnancies are the product of rape. Secondly, most women who have unwanted pregnancies decide to not leave their children to die of exposure, regardless of whether they leave the child at an orphanage or a safe haven zone. Many of them choose to mother their children.

Thirdly, as for the ones that do kill their children: they often put babies in garbage bags, then hide them in garbage cans. Those babies are probably crying their barely opened lungs out, getting cut up by whatever else is in that garbage can, suffocating both from the lack of air and whatever else covering their mouth and nose, starving, growing too cold or too hot depending on the season, becoming wet depending on whether there's rain or snow. If nobody finds that child in time, then they unwittingly get thrown into a garbage truck and get compacted like the rest of the garbage-- except that unlike garbage, they have skulls and bones and organs that all get crushed in the packer panel. Fair enough, by the point that this happens, they may already be dead by suffocation, starvation and/or illness.

If someone can bear this happening to a breathing human baby they gave birth to, they have antisocial tendencies. Full stop. Their own suffering doesn't absolve them from inflicting undeserved suffering onto babies. That they could or could not have gotten an abortion does not change what they did to a born child, another human being.

 

[Doomroar]

No, I can recognize "why" someone would deliberately throw their born and living child away like garbage. My point is that it's all irrelevant to the fact that they killed a person, that they killed a person trumps everything else at hand, and that they generally aren't even forced to kill a person. The killing was premeditated, and the motive is that they didn't "want" the child. It is murder. It would be no less murder if the child was one year old, or two years old, or older than that.

No you can't, because you keep ignoring what is leading to a person being killed, refusing to address the problem means that the problem will never be fixed

Supposing they can't abandon their child at an orphanage or a safe haven zone without being charged with child abandonment, what sense does it make to abandon them in a way that will definitely kill them so they can also be charged with murder? That's not just "not wanting the baby" anymore-- it's a profound disregard for human life.

Because the women are in a position to deny the entire pregnancy from happening by literally hiding it away as i never happened

The bonds are logical, biological, legal, social, and (normally) psychological.

There's only a biological bond

For the bond to be social the woman needs to acknowledge the baby as wanted, and for the bond to be logical there needs to be an intrinsic psychological instinct towards motherhood, which doesn't exist

People as with everything human, need to learn how to care for others

In every way that matters, a woman who gestates a child is (and has always been considered) the mother of that child. Their parent. That's why we can prosecute them for child abuse when they abuse their children. Without any kind of transfer of parenthood, it doesn't at all matter what they "feel".

Of course it matters what they feel, because this is how we get to understand why they do things in the first place, instead of jumping from the false assumption that the moment a woman ends pregnant they automatically become a mother bound to love and care for their child

That assumption is false, and it is our duty for our own survival, to make sure that at the most minimum we can guarantee that the bonds of care between a mother and child can be created, because this basic concept of protection is what guides all other assumptions between group safety

However there no biological, logical, psychological, or social, intrinsic guarantee that such a bond will be form, so it is up to us to put in the work to facilitate it, and living in denial thinking otherwise doesn't helps with that

Firstly, not even most unwanted pregnancies are the product of rape.

Most unwanted pregnancies happen by a lack of contraceptive use, but child abandonment is a product of women who are already living under vulnerable situations, with no support network, and who are victims of abuse themselves

Secondly, most women who have unwanted pregnancies decide to not leave their children to die of exposure, regardless of whether they leave the child at an orphanage or a safe haven zone. Many of them choose to mother their children.

Most unwanted pregnancies happen within formal couples that don't use reproductive planning, which means that they already have the means and the support to take care of a child they didn't planned to have

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039074

In fact this is why they changed the name of this term to unintended" pregnancies

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1728-4465.2014.00393.x

Using general statistics that lumps an unrelated group with the one facing the actual problem is the same as acting as the problem doesn't exist by working under wrongful assumptions

Thirdly, as for the ones that do kill their children: they often put babies in garbage bags, then hide them in garbage cans. Those babies are probably crying their barely opened lungs out, getting cut up by whatever else is in that garbage can, suffocating both from the lack of air and whatever else covering their mouth and nose, starving, growing too cold or too hot depending on the season, becoming wet depending on whether there's rain or snow. If nobody finds that child in time, then they unwittingly get thrown into a garbage truck and get compacted like the rest of the garbage-- except that unlike garbage, they have skulls and bones and organs that all get crushed in the packer panel. Fair enough, by the point that this happens, they may already be dead by suffocation, starvation and/or illness.

If someone can bear this happening to a breathing human baby they gave birth to, they have antisocial tendencies. Full stop. Their own suffering doesn't absolve them from inflicting undeserved suffering onto babies. That they could or could not have gotten an abortion does not change what they did to a born child, another human being.

Very graphical description of a newborn suffocating to death, however by allowing yourself to be guided by emotion and outrage to the point of simplifying the problem to a convenient and inaccurate assumption, you will allow for these things to keep happening

The longer you refuse to accept the fact that there are circumstances behind child abandonment that can't be thrown under the rug by just assuming that women are evil, then the longer the problem will continue, because you will be directing energy and effort towards things that wont change anything

And i feel that very disingenuous, you act like you care a lot, but instead of actually at least trying to understand why something happens, and considering the things that we as a society can change in order to make things better, you insist on believing on some makeshift reality that helps no one at the end of the day, in fact you put us at risk of ending with ineffective and wasteful laws being designed to target things that are irrelevant to the problem, which will make things worse for everyone

 

[Eighty-six]

No you can't, because you keep ignoring what is leading to a person being killed, refusing to address the problem means that the problem will never be fixed

I'm not ignoring you, as much as I can only view as murder motives the "reasons" you want to propose for why the murders happen, and otherwise disagree with the value of those reasons in the face of someone committing infanticide. Not least of all considering that the murder only makes things worse for the murderer compared to "simply" abandoning the child in a place where they won't certainly die.

This can't be treated so abstractly that you distract yourself from the reality that a life-- that just about everyone considers a life-- was taken in an act of, at best, reckless disregard for human life. It is not just illegal, it is immoral. You can characterize the perpetrator however you want, and it still wouldn't change the fact of their murder. You can talk about how to prevent people from feeling like they have to murder babies-- as if that's even the job of other people-- but it doesn't change the fact that they indeed committed murder. You, personally, can choose to have sympathy for a murderer depending on the circumstances.

Because the women are in a position to deny the entire pregnancy from happening by literally hiding it away as i never happened

It's not "a pregnancy"-- absolutely not at the point where you're committing infanticide.

Secondly, they're still capable of being caught for their crime and investigated, in the same way they're able to get caught (or not caught) for abandoning their child in non-fatal contexts (whether or not they do so in legally designated areas).

Thirdly, this reasoning is underlaid by psychopathy, or something much like it-- pretending a whole human being, already born, "never happened" by killing him.

Of course it matters what they feel, because this is how we get to understand why they do things in the first place, instead of jumping from the false assumption that the moment a woman ends pregnant they automatically become a mother bound to love and care for their child

Whether or not that love is generated isn't relevant, either. The point is that they're legally (and morally, really) bound to not mistreat or murder the one who is biologically and logically their own child.

You have a very idealistic but narrow conception of "motherhood" that people usually don't have-- not that they don't have idealistic expectations that they fit under the word, but they recognize that the minimum of "motherhood" is giving birth to a child.

Very graphical description of a newborn suffocating to death, however by allowing yourself to be guided by emotion and outrage to the point of simplifying the problem to a convenient and inaccurate assumption,

Firstly, you attempted to paint all unwanted pregnancies as the product of rape, knowing full well (and now, exemplifying by yourself) that such isn't even mostly the case. There's a variety of reasons why a mother would dispose of their living child like garbage, and I interpreted you conflating all unwanted pregnancy with rape for your argument to be an attempt at an emotional appeal.

Secondly, I'm not attempting an emotional appeal-- I'm describing the reality of the act, which you appear to not be able to reckon with properly as you simultaneously attempt to defend the people who perform it. Just because I haven't meandered to my "simple" conclusion, doesn't mean that I haven't weighed the context being discussed.

The longer you refuse to accept the fact that there are circumstances behind child abandonment that can't be thrown under the rug by just assuming that women are evil

Point to me where I said "women are evil".

No, my thesis is that women who chuck their born and living children in garbage bins have committed a deeply and multifariously evil act that they generally were not coerced into committing, that being able to perform such an act indicates something akin to psychopathy in the perpetrator because of what the act actually consists of, that the act is liable to net them more jail time than if they didn't outright abandon a child to their death (regardless of whether they kept the child), and that no excuse you can give obviates those realities.

Do all women chuck their children in garbage bins? Is it even permissible in whatever female subculture in whatever society?

 

[Asheron]

This manga confuses me. Maybe that's why it's a mystery! The art has a very RomCom feel but now with Miyu's dad introduced, I don't know where the story is going.

 

[Doomroar]

I'm not ignoring you, as much as I can only view as murder motives the "reasons" you want to propose for why the murders happen, and otherwise disagree with the value of those reasons in the face of someone committing infanticide. Not least of all considering that the murder only makes things worse for the murderer compared to "simply" abandoning the child in a place where they won't certainly die.

Yes you are by disregarding the factors that lead to the crime taking place in the first place you make things actively worse

This can't be treated so abstractly that you distract yourself from the reality that a life-- that just about everyone considers a life-- was taken in an act of, at best, reckless disregard for human life. It is not just illegal, it is immoral. You can characterize the perpetrator however you want, and it still wouldn't change the fact of their murder. You can talk about how to prevent people from feeling like they have to murder babies-- as if that's even the job of other people-- but it doesn't change the fact that they indeed committed murder. You, personally, can choose to have sympathy for a murderer depending on the circumstances.

Have you ever stopped to think why murder is wrong in the first place? you just assume that life is sacred as granted, however this is not truth, survival is a privilege, and to guaranteed it is a communal duty, so yes preventing people from even reaching to consider the option of killing children is a duty that falls into all of us as members of a society

It's not "a pregnancy"-- absolutely not at the point where you're committing infanticide.

The logic behind the women that abandon their babies is that of them seeking to erase the entire event from happening not just giving birth, but to ever having been pregnant, thus you have to consider the entire thing when covering the problem, not just the end result

Secondly, they're still capable of being caught for their crime and investigated, in the same way they're able to get caught (or not caught) for abandoning their child in non-fatal contexts (whether or not they do so in legally designated areas).

Yes as with every crime there's the chance to being caught, or not, ignoring how to prevent the crime from happening in the first place while assuming that prosecution will solve things is pointless, as an example for the case of Japan, the moderate introduction of safe heavens already helped reducing the rate of child abandonment, in the one prefecture that has them, yet the entire process remains illegal for the rest of the country, and that's just for one factor, safe heaven alone and by themselves are not enough to cover the problem

Thirdly, this reasoning is underlaid by psychopathy, or something much like it-- pretending a whole human being, already born, "never happened" by killing him.

Psychopathy is formal mental diagnosis characterized for a lack of empathy and a tendency for manipulate and take advantage of others, it is something that permeates the entire set of behaviors of a person, and as thus can't be applied to singular crime, if you want to push psychopathic behavior as the model used to explain why the crime happens, and work from there to deal with it, then you will fail

The crime is more in line with antisocial behavior, however anti social behaviors don't exist in a vacuum, they come forth because of a combination of factors that exist outside the control of the woman committing the crime, factors that you insist on denying, and that will keep reproducing more of these crimes for as long as they remain unchanged

Whether or not that love is generated isn't relevant, either. The point is that they're legally (and morally, really) bound to not mistreat or murder the one who is biologically and logically their own child.

You have a very idealistic but narrow conception of "motherhood" that people usually don't have-- not that they don't have idealistic expectations that they fit under the word, but they recognize that the minimum of "motherhood" is giving birth to a child.

The minimum of motherhood is to take care of a child, just giving birth doesn't makes someone a mother, it just makes them a progenitor, to try to force a logic that doesn't correlates with reality and enforce it with law, is to ignore the problem at hand, this is how you end with cases like this, precisely because you are assuming that a woman will automatically be bound to take care of their children

The expectation that a woman will be a good mother just because they can give birth, is an even bigger idealistic and narrow conception of motherhood, which leaves us unprepared to face the scenarios when women don't live up to that unrealistic expectation

Firstly, you attempted to paint all unwanted pregnancies as the product of rape, knowing full well (and now, exemplifying by yourself) that such isn't even mostly the case. There's a variety of reasons why a mother would dispose of their living child like garbage, and I interpreted you conflating all unwanted pregnancy with rape for your argument to be an attempt at an emotional appeal.

I am showing you that there is a difference between unwanted pregnancies and unintended pregnancies, and how within the sub group of unwanted pregnancies the ones that lead to child abandonment due to sexual abuse is greater sub group

Also brought up sexual abuse victims as an example to show that the phenomenon of child abandonment, doesn't exist due to a psychopathic psychology, but as a result of mistreatment, an external factor that leads to the psychological phenom of distancing and dehumanizing a baby, but i am not saying that all cases of child abandonment are due to sexual abuse, nor i am excusing the crime from happening

Secondly, I'm not attempting an emotional appeal-- I'm describing the reality of the act, which you appear to not be able to reckon with properly as you simultaneously attempt to defend the people who perform it. Just because I haven't meandered to my "simple" conclusion, doesn't mean that I haven't weighed the context being discussed.

I am not defending the women committing the crime, i am attacking your arguments for misrepresenting the nature of the crime, and making the possibility of properly dealing with it harder

Point to me where I said "women are evil".

Fair it is a reduction of your thesis that the act of killing a new born by abandonment is akin to psychopathy, but that is still a reduction of the problem on your part, just badly using the therm psychopathy is no better than to just plainly say that someone does bad things because they are evil and calling it a day

Not only is it misguided, because psychopathy is not a necessary factor for the crime to take place, on top of it all, it ignores all the factors that need to be covered in order to stop these kind of things to keep happening, just to focus in an emotional assumption "only someone deeply nefarious would commit such an evil act, they must be a psychopath"

No, my thesis is that women who chuck their born and living children in garbage bins have committed a deeply and multifariously evil act that they generally were not coerced into committing, that being able to perform such an act indicates something akin to psychopathy in the perpetrator because of what the act actually consists of, that the act is liable to net them more jail time than if they didn't outright abandon a child to their death (regardless of whether they kept it), and that no excuse you can give obviates those realities.

Do all women chuck their children in garbage bins? Is it even permissible in whatever female subculture in whatever society?

Knowing the external circumstances that lead to a crime taking place doesn't excuses nor erases the crime from happening, however what it does is broaden the extent of the things that need to be confronted, changed, and punished which lead to the crime taking place, by ignoring all of those things, and putting the blame entirely on the woman, you are being blind to the world in which reality takes place

A gang member can have a bunch of circumstances behind why they may join a gang, and eventually end up committing murder, ignoring all of those circumstances, and reducing them under the assumption that a gangbanger is a psychopath wont change anything, more gangs will keep being formed and more people will keep being murdered, because the core of the problem remains unaddressed

 

[wallsg]

Yuushin knew Miyu was gonna try to steal his mom so he wore the shirt to remind mommy dearest who her biological child was in the face of Miyu's full-court charm press.

Either that or he's just such a raging mothercon that he wears T-shirts obliquely referencing his Oedipus complex under his uniform every day.

Yuushin's such a giant fuckin' weirdo I wouldn't put either possibility past him.

I think I hate this MC worse than I do the Ugly Bastard that's going steal away whatever woman who agrees to date/marry this loser.

 

[vanCham]

Wow, are monchhichis really still a thing?
I always fucking hated these fugly pieces of crap.

 

[XicoYe]

Gettin' darker

 

[neto592]

Sure may as well have her being born on a toilet, but did she really? for those cases which do happen the baby is usually abandoned, however her mother keep her and even registered her birth

And that just doesn't tracks for toilet babies, who either die or end up in the care of the state

This manga is wacky enough for her story to be real, but the narrator is also a master manipulator

I don't even think that she is a fake Miyu but the real one.

 

[AdmiralSilver]

Always an interesting night when I found out there's another one of these. He cannot catch a break can he