Naruto
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@milkdrinker Its just after the pain arc where everything goes. completely downhill. Characters, world-building and especially world building.. It starts to scale just like dbz
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Naruto is a battle shounen in the vein of Dragon Ball but with significantly more angst. I'm of the opinion that DB can get away with bullshit simply because it's such a likeable series; Toriyama has a great sense of humor and a flippant attitude regarding his own work that Kishimoto seems to lack. Naruto tries to be sentimental and emotional but most of the time falls flat as the story is shoddy and terribly juvenile in the worst way.
Things feeling unearned or undeserved is a running theme in this manga. Antagonists suddenly become good boys for the shallowest reasons and it almost always feels undeserved to the point it feels like a red herring setup (for instance, a certain meanie head bad guy character that does the most heinous unit 731 type shit throughout the series gets reintroduced and goes "I guess I'm nice now" and everyone just goes "ok cool" and he remains good and all his crimes ignored). Powerups and asspulls are more annoying in Naruto than in other manga , and it feels like whenever a question like "How do I get every character on the same page in this scene" the answer Kishimoto comes up with is "They read eachothers minds instantly through the power of love fuck you". We rarely get training scenes or even references to training; characters will often just suddenly have new abilities, and if we're lucky we'll get a throwaway line explaining how they bullshitted their way to get it within the past second.
This manga has a huge *teleports behind you* problem, which is indicative of a larger issue: Naruto is superficially cool. Characters are all super badasses with tragic backstories and cool eye powers and the higher their angst the higher their power levels. The famous "Naruto run" is cool until you realise that military professionals that rely on their hands being clasped to perform combat actions wouldn't let their hands dangle all the way behind them in a combat situation; military operators don't leave their guns on their backs when they're in a firefight and neither should shinobi.
In a manga so much about community and making connections, this manga has the Dragon Ball issue of characters just becoming obsolete and underused. Characters that were vital at earlier sections get a single panel explaining what's up while the big boys continue the plot. If you aren't super saiyan then you're useless and if you don't have sharingan or biju then you're useless.
On a more subjective note, I found the fanart between the chapters disgusting, and ironically reflective of the actual manga in that they were often flashy but a cursory glance reveals it to be extremely lacking and has deviantart written all over it. As someone else commented, the colored pages were unnecessary and I skipped all of them immediately.
All that griping aside, I'll admit it wasn't a completely worthless manga. I enjoyed some of the character interactions, and laughed a handful of times at some of the sillier antics. The action scenes were all very clear and easy to understand. The simple character motivations were shallow, but I guess that also means you won't get confused! The ending fight between our protagonists was satisfying for what it was and the epilogue was cute.
All in all, Naruto is ugly, angsty, shallow, and terribly juvenile (but less in a "Dr. Slump" juvenile and more in an "embarrassing middleschooler fanfic from 2006" juvenile). In other words, it lacks the depth of mature manga, but lacks the charm of childish manga. If you genuinely and unironically enjoy this manga/anime as an adult, then I suspect you're immature and emotionally stunted in the same way that grown men that listen to Linkin Park and Disturbed are. Would not recommend to anyone
Things feeling unearned or undeserved is a running theme in this manga. Antagonists suddenly become good boys for the shallowest reasons and it almost always feels undeserved to the point it feels like a red herring setup (for instance, a certain meanie head bad guy character that does the most heinous unit 731 type shit throughout the series gets reintroduced and goes "I guess I'm nice now" and everyone just goes "ok cool" and he remains good and all his crimes ignored). Powerups and asspulls are more annoying in Naruto than in other manga , and it feels like whenever a question like "How do I get every character on the same page in this scene" the answer Kishimoto comes up with is "They read eachothers minds instantly through the power of love fuck you". We rarely get training scenes or even references to training; characters will often just suddenly have new abilities, and if we're lucky we'll get a throwaway line explaining how they bullshitted their way to get it within the past second.
This manga has a huge *teleports behind you* problem, which is indicative of a larger issue: Naruto is superficially cool. Characters are all super badasses with tragic backstories and cool eye powers and the higher their angst the higher their power levels. The famous "Naruto run" is cool until you realise that military professionals that rely on their hands being clasped to perform combat actions wouldn't let their hands dangle all the way behind them in a combat situation; military operators don't leave their guns on their backs when they're in a firefight and neither should shinobi.
In a manga so much about community and making connections, this manga has the Dragon Ball issue of characters just becoming obsolete and underused. Characters that were vital at earlier sections get a single panel explaining what's up while the big boys continue the plot. If you aren't super saiyan then you're useless and if you don't have sharingan or biju then you're useless.
On a more subjective note, I found the fanart between the chapters disgusting, and ironically reflective of the actual manga in that they were often flashy but a cursory glance reveals it to be extremely lacking and has deviantart written all over it. As someone else commented, the colored pages were unnecessary and I skipped all of them immediately.
All that griping aside, I'll admit it wasn't a completely worthless manga. I enjoyed some of the character interactions, and laughed a handful of times at some of the sillier antics. The action scenes were all very clear and easy to understand. The simple character motivations were shallow, but I guess that also means you won't get confused! The ending fight between our protagonists was satisfying for what it was and the epilogue was cute.
All in all, Naruto is ugly, angsty, shallow, and terribly juvenile (but less in a "Dr. Slump" juvenile and more in an "embarrassing middleschooler fanfic from 2006" juvenile). In other words, it lacks the depth of mature manga, but lacks the charm of childish manga. If you genuinely and unironically enjoy this manga/anime as an adult, then I suspect you're immature and emotionally stunted in the same way that grown men that listen to Linkin Park and Disturbed are. Would not recommend to anyone
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@EarlMerleTheGirl I agree with some of your arguments, but not with others, I mean the part where you mention that "bad guys" turn out to be "good" from one moment to the next. I believe that in Naruto (unlike DB) there are no bad guys as such, only people with different points of view and experiences.
In the first chapters and throughout the series it is mentioned that Naruto has a kind of talent, that allows him to understand with anyone (this may or may not like, but this is how this manga was built, quite emotional) and this has a reason for being, as Naruto grew up Without any bond, he tries to befriend anyone and that is his goal, to make humans understand each other.
Now, the "bad guys". I dont think they magically change their personality, is only that Naruto "restores" their previous way of thinking (in many cases with empirical evidence)
to finish: Naruto is quite an emotional manga, and I understand perfectly why many may not like it.
Now to not only speak well, I will also say the bad, and that is that from chapter 454 the manga changes radically, but I will talk about that in another post, so as not to get longer than it should i say goodbye, and sorry if my english isnt that good.
In the first chapters and throughout the series it is mentioned that Naruto has a kind of talent, that allows him to understand with anyone (this may or may not like, but this is how this manga was built, quite emotional) and this has a reason for being, as Naruto grew up Without any bond, he tries to befriend anyone and that is his goal, to make humans understand each other.
Now, the "bad guys". I dont think they magically change their personality, is only that Naruto "restores" their previous way of thinking (in many cases with empirical evidence)
to finish: Naruto is quite an emotional manga, and I understand perfectly why many may not like it.
Now to not only speak well, I will also say the bad, and that is that from chapter 454 the manga changes radically, but I will talk about that in another post, so as not to get longer than it should i say goodbye, and sorry if my english isnt that good.
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@ itswasmeDIO
I was specifically referring to
I never said that their motives "magically changed", just that it was undeserved and stupid.
I was specifically referring to
Orochimaru, whom had not been swayed by Naruto's honeyed words and had simply been killed by Sasuke, another villain. Orochimaru gets revived and simply changes his mind about being mean because he saw Kabuto get his ass kicked and then everyone just lets him hang out because fuck it the worlds ending and then he just walks off into the sunset at the end even though he tortured and experimented on countless people. Pein had a very good point about hollow peace and that the only true lasting end to war is an authoritative grasp on the world but Naruto just tells him that it's bad to be mean like that and Pein just goes "shit my bad g" and then dies. The kyuubi is a hateful creature of malice and then Naruto sings "You Got a Friend in Me" from Toy Story and suddenly the kyuubi loves him and even has casual conversations with people.
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@itswasmeDIO
won't let me edit it anymore and i can't delete posts for some reason so here's a redundant tag post
won't let me edit it anymore and i can't delete posts for some reason so here's a redundant tag post
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@EarlMerleTheGirl
First, with what you say about Orochimaru, I agree with you 100%.
But not so with what you mention about Pain, first, Nagato's plan is not absolute, since even if he executes his plan perfectly, eventually wars and hatred will reappear (this is said by pain). now you have to take into account the "original" personality of Nagato, a gullible boy with a mild character or rather a boy who lacks a strong personality. For all the above, when he faced the ninja world, this world proved too crude for him. And that's how Pain was born (an amazing character, don't get me wrong) Naruto knows this world, because he has suffered it too. But that's when he stands in front of Nagato, the guy who destroyed his village and murdered his senseis, and tells him that, unlike him, he will not back down or change his ideals. These sayings make a great impression on nagato, and it is what leads him to change his mind, or rather to be the nagato from before. Since the one of now is only moved by hatred, it is necessary to note that these words have no effect on Konan, because she is moved by love, Konan and Nagato are 2 sides of the same coin. and that's why Konan only changes her mind when she sees Nagato do it.
Finally, regarding Kurama, I think the manga should have ended with Naruto and Kurama joining forces, but I get your point because the process that led to their friendship is quite rushed.
To finish, maybe I simplified some things, but I think I made my point of view see.
First, with what you say about Orochimaru, I agree with you 100%.
But not so with what you mention about Pain, first, Nagato's plan is not absolute, since even if he executes his plan perfectly, eventually wars and hatred will reappear (this is said by pain). now you have to take into account the "original" personality of Nagato, a gullible boy with a mild character or rather a boy who lacks a strong personality. For all the above, when he faced the ninja world, this world proved too crude for him. And that's how Pain was born (an amazing character, don't get me wrong) Naruto knows this world, because he has suffered it too. But that's when he stands in front of Nagato, the guy who destroyed his village and murdered his senseis, and tells him that, unlike him, he will not back down or change his ideals. These sayings make a great impression on nagato, and it is what leads him to change his mind, or rather to be the nagato from before. Since the one of now is only moved by hatred, it is necessary to note that these words have no effect on Konan, because she is moved by love, Konan and Nagato are 2 sides of the same coin. and that's why Konan only changes her mind when she sees Nagato do it.
Finally, regarding Kurama, I think the manga should have ended with Naruto and Kurama joining forces, but I get your point because the process that led to their friendship is quite rushed.
To finish, maybe I simplified some things, but I think I made my point of view see.
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@EarlMerleTheGirl
I know Naruto's speech to Nagato falls a bit short, because of course, Ideally, naruto should have given Nagato the answer that the latter was waiting for, but this was clearly impossible as it is a totally utopian subject. but I think because of how the manga is constructed, Naruto's speech (at least for me) is fine.
now the only "talk no jutsu" that I really hated was the speech that Naruto gave to Obito, but im not gonna talk about that, as i said in previous posts, i hated most of the things that comes after the pain arc.
I know Naruto's speech to Nagato falls a bit short, because of course, Ideally, naruto should have given Nagato the answer that the latter was waiting for, but this was clearly impossible as it is a totally utopian subject. but I think because of how the manga is constructed, Naruto's speech (at least for me) is fine.
now the only "talk no jutsu" that I really hated was the speech that Naruto gave to Obito, but im not gonna talk about that, as i said in previous posts, i hated most of the things that comes after the pain arc.
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@itswasmeDIO
Peins plan is a harsh but it would yield actual results, however temporary they could be (underestimating the complacency and cowardice of the masses is naive in my opinion). Naruto's "plan" was just to be nice and sing kumbaya around the bonfire and somehow that convinced him. The confrontation between Naruto and the super terrorist that exploded his home town is nice, the unwavering commitment to his own ideals by Naruto is nice, but the idea that said super terrorist would be convinced by such childish rhetoric is absurd. Pein already knew that it was harsh, but it was a necessary evil; the ends justified the means. The idea that Pein just gave up on a plan that would've definitely worked for at least a moment, in favor of Naruto's blind optimism that would almost definitely not work is idiotic. Somehow I doubt appealing to a fascist dictators "inner child" in real life wouldn't go over as well. The lackluster "talk no jutsu" as you called it is acceptable for reasons you stated, but Pein being convinced of anything is not believable, especially after all that he'd done at that point; a simple "agree to disagree" would've been more satisfying. Naruto having to come to terms with his own naivety and juvenile view of the world could've been interesting, it's even hinted at by Jiraiya, but he never learns and everything works out a-ok for him in the end which is an awful message to send to it's younger readers.
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@EarlMerleTheGirl I get your point, trust me, it's just that I'm more permissive, and I think what Kishimoto wanted to highlight with this conversation, was for readers to see Naruto's determination and how much he had matured. So, like I said, I let it pass.
To conclude with this, for me this part is a pre-ending, and I was hoping that in the last part of the manga Naruto would have found some plan or alternative to achieve world peace (a clearly utopian issue, it must be taken into consideration) or make a real change. but as you say, in the end everything works out for Naruto, and that ending leaves me feeling empty.
I would have liked that Kishismoto focused more on the feudal lords, these because of their greed were the cause of everything, and in the end he only focused on the kages and uchihas.
and the worst part of all is that naruto ends up "working" for the lords.
Finally, to me in retrospective, the conversation makes Nagato seem, how to say, a little stupid.
But if I ignore everything that happened afterwards, I have no problem with the aforementioned scene, that's my opinion, I respect yours, I also think that the fandom deified pain too much. And as I say, I wish that instead of focusing only on the uchihas, they had focused more on the system of the feudal lords.
To conclude with this, for me this part is a pre-ending, and I was hoping that in the last part of the manga Naruto would have found some plan or alternative to achieve world peace (a clearly utopian issue, it must be taken into consideration) or make a real change. but as you say, in the end everything works out for Naruto, and that ending leaves me feeling empty.
I would have liked that Kishismoto focused more on the feudal lords, these because of their greed were the cause of everything, and in the end he only focused on the kages and uchihas.
and the worst part of all is that naruto ends up "working" for the lords.
Finally, to me in retrospective, the conversation makes Nagato seem, how to say, a little stupid.
But if I ignore everything that happened afterwards, I have no problem with the aforementioned scene, that's my opinion, I respect yours, I also think that the fandom deified pain too much. And as I say, I wish that instead of focusing only on the uchihas, they had focused more on the system of the feudal lords.
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Dex-chan lover
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kishimoto really lost his initial touch as he created the series, my guess is that he didn't really plan any of the plot, he just sorta winged it along
every shonen sin is present in this manga: power creeps, unnecessary twists, bad villain design, poor pacing, inconsistent world building and many other problems
as this took off with a ton of popularity, kishimoto couldn't stand up to the challenge
3/10
every shonen sin is present in this manga: power creeps, unnecessary twists, bad villain design, poor pacing, inconsistent world building and many other problems
as this took off with a ton of popularity, kishimoto couldn't stand up to the challenge
3/10
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I have never heard about this manga before ...It will become kino and GOAT in a few years . It's such a shame that it is so obscure
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[spoiler why did kurama have to die though.][/spoiler]
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I've previously read the official volumes, many times, and I'm now re-reading the entire series on MangaDex. Regarding the fan translations on here, some of it is quite high quality, but there's quite a lot of unfortunately poor work. There's a few "blind idiot" translations, mostly in the names of techniques. There's not enough redrawing in some chapters. But what's most aggravating to me is the sheer amount of untranslated terms. I've been reading fan translations for years (and have worked on scanlation myself), and I know hundreds of Japanese words and terms, but some of the chapters here use word after word that I've never heard of before, with no note explaining what they mean, and you can't even infer it from the context much of the time. There's a very good time and place for leaving a term untranslated and explaining what it means, as it adds greater cultural impact and depth of setting. But some groups have ignored that and seem to go out of their way to make it unreadable (they took the time to translate the term from kanji into English, but then wrote romaji instead of, you know, actually writing the word in English), which is the opposite of what translation/localization is supposed to do. I'm annoyed.
