Neko no Te datte Yaku ni Tatsu - Ch. 165 - Doggo

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Note: He never actually says "Doggo". This is the translator changing stuff again. I don't know why it's such a struggle for him to just say what they say.
Imagine complaining about validity of translation of a title of one page of a comedy manga as if language was some sort of absolute, unchanging object, and words within it — perfect representations of platonic ideas.
 
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Imagine complaining about validity of translation of a title of one page of a comedy manga as if language was some sort of absolute, unchanging object, and words within it — perfect representations of platonic ideas.
loocalization is bad yadda yadda, well i agree but this one isn't that bad, it's just one fucking word
 
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Imagine complaining about validity of translation of a title of one page of a comedy manga as if language was some sort of absolute, unchanging object, and words within it — perfect representations of platonic ideas.
Imagine thinking there's no "right" way to translate dialogue, then complaining to the guy pointing out it was done wrong. I'm guessing you're the kind of guy that doesn't care if the TL makes up sentences.
loocalization is bad yadda yadda, well i agree but this one isn't that bad, it's just one fucking word
Well it turns him from a Japanese teenager that likes cats, to an American that devolves into baby talk the moment he sees a dog, so...

It's not even like they don't have some equivalent words in Japanese. It's just that the TL really wanted to turn "いぬ" into "Doggo", and add yet more "Doggos" where they don't even say "いぬ”.

If it's such a small deal, why make the change at all?
 
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Imagine thinking there's no "right" way to translate dialogue
If that's your approach to understanding English, I can't even imagine what kind of inaccuracies you introduce when you "localize" works written in other languages. Why, at this point you might as well complain that the author is the one writing the manga wrong, seeing how you are going to rewrite the text anyway.
 
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If that's your approach to understanding English, I can't even imagine what kind of inaccuracies you introduce when you "localize" works written in other languages. Why, at this point you might as well complain that the author is the one writing the manga wrong, seeing how you are going to rewrite the text anyway.
Rgal used counterargument

It hurt itself in its confusion


:pacman:

I don't get it. How should it have been translated? What was written in the original and what did it mean?
The title is just "いぬ" (Dog), the second line doesn't feature the word "dog" at all, so it was something like "She's so big and cute", and finally something like "Not at all! She's a good girl" .

As I've pointed out before, they totally do have several equivalents to "Doggo", like "wanwan" and "Wan-chan". Hell, you can see me translate to something along those lines in chapter 16 of R15+ Ja Dame Desu Ka? But the guy didn't say that. He totally kept his cool and didn't start baby talking the dog in public.
 
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Note: He never actually says "Doggo". This is the translator changing stuff again. I don't know why it's such a struggle for him to just say what they say.
Unless he says something other than any sort of word relating to "dog", I don't think it matters it was translated into "doggo". The point came across to everyone. He's talking about a dog. He said dog, but doggo. It's not that deep.
 
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Unless he says something other than any sort of word relating to "dog", I don't think it matters it was translated into "doggo". The point came across to everyone. He's talking about a dog. He said dog, but doggo. It's not that deep.
If you don't care about his characterization, then there's nothing I can do. There's really no reason for it to be like this since the entire point of translating the work is to get a message in one language across in another. Part of that is making sure the people are actually speaking in their equivalent tones and lexicons. If you see someone translate "Wakarimashita" ("Understood"- Polite, Formal Speech) as "Aight meng", and think "Well I got the idea. Who cares?", I don't think my complaints are going to resonate with you.
 
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Bakeinu
Inugami
Inu tengu...
I'm not sure bakeinu is a thing, but inugami is an evil spirit possession, which would make Mitsuki's fear very reasonable, even if you're not someone who believes fear of dogs is reasonable normally.
 
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The title is just "いぬ" (Dog),
Last I checked, "Dog" and "Doggo" mean the same thing. Also, the multicolor doesn't work well on a one-syllable English word, so using "Doggo" rendered that better.
the second line doesn't feature the word "dog" at all, so it was something like "She's so big and cute",
"デカいぬかわいいはー" clearly has "dog" in it, so why doesn't your translation above include it if matching words so important?
and finally something like "Not at all! She's a good girl" .
Those lines don't feature the word "She". And unlike "dog", which is clear from context, getting the dog's gender wrong could cause problems if it makes later appearances. (NB: The name being in Hiragana might suggest female, but the one example of a dog named Mikan Google found for me was male.)

Not to mention that you are converting from a language with topic markers and optional subject and objects to one without topic markers and subject and objects that are typically mandatory. Complaining that the Japanese didn't use "dog" in the later lines is as about as meaningless as you can get.

As I've pointed out before, they totally do have several equivalents to "Doggo", like "wanwan" and "Wan-chan".
Since when has there been a one-to-one correspondence between formality levels in Japanese and English?
But the guy didn't say that. He totally kept his cool and didn't start baby talking the dog in public.
He kept his cool? "おっ!!!デカいぬかわいいはー" doesn't read as that cool to me, TBH. But what do I know?

It seems like your core complaint is just that you think the translation made Takase's speech too informal compared to the Japanese original and his character. Maybe you should focus on that instead of talking as though translation was just a matter of rendering words from one language to the same words in another and that the translation was, therefore, blatantly wrong.
 
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Last I checked, "Dog" and "Doggo" mean the same thing. Also, the multicolor doesn't work well on a one-syllable English word, so using "Doggo" rendered that better.
"Tits" and "Boobs" also mean the same thing. Despite that, these words are used in different contexts by different people. And a story where a child walks up to his mom and asks about her "tits" is a very different one from a boy that asks about her "Boobs". Here, the young man used the plain word for "Dog", without devolving into cutesy names and speech patterns. And, as I keep saying: Japanese has equivalents for "Doggo", so the choice of wording is entirely deliberate.

"デカいぬかわいいはー" clearly has "dog" in it, so why doesn't your translation above include it if matching words so important?
Because I missed the ぬ at the end, mistakenly leaving it as デカいね かわいい in my mind. Thankfully, I can admit to my mistakes; I find that's a rare trait.

P.S.: It's な, not は

Those lines don't feature the word "She". And unlike "dog", which is clear from context, getting the dog's gender wrong could cause problems if it makes later appearances. (NB: The name being in Hiragana might suggest female, but the one example of a dog named Mikan Google found for me was male.)
Yeah, Mikan's a girl's name.

Exhibit A: https://toloveru.fandom.com/wiki/Yūki_Mikan

Exhibit B: https://namedic.jp/names/yomi/f/みかん
I suspect there might have been a misunderstanding with the dog name thing on your end.
Not to mention that you are converting from a language with topic markers and optional subject and objects to one without topic markers and subject and objects that are typically mandatory. Complaining that the Japanese didn't use "dog" in the later lines is as about as meaningless as you can get.
The second line, had it not literally said いぬ would have been perfectly translatable into English without literally mentioning the dog, since the subject is obvious from context. Turns out, English has implicit subjects too!
Since when has there been a one-to-one correspondence between formality levels in Japanese and English?
I don't understand the question. Both languages have normal words for "Dog" to be used in more formal, serious conversation, then cutesy words for "dog" to be used in more informal contexts. That's your correspondence. Just because we don't have the equivalent formality for words like です and verb endings like ます doesn't mean there's literally no correspondence in formality at all between the languages. English and Japanese both have Formal registers. That Japanese happens to have more formal registers that are more pervasive doesn't really change that.
He kept his cool? "おっ!!!デカいぬかわいいはー" doesn't read as that cool to me, TBH. But what do I know?
The boy didn't break social convention and bust out the slang because he saw a cute dog. He kept a perfectly normal, appropriate distance while also expressing interest. But tell you what: If the anime ever comes out for this, and the boy sounds like he's absolutely gushing over the dog, I'll gladly eat crow in the forum of your choosing.
It seems like your core complaint is just that you think the translation made Takase's speech too informal compared to the Japanese original and his character. Maybe you should focus on that instead of talking as though translation was just a matter of rendering words from one language to the same words in another and that the translation was, therefore, blatantly wrong.

"Doggo" is slang that isn't present in the original. He didn't lose all composure and start baby talking the dog. And the problem is that the author actually had the option of including the slang if she so desired. So the fact that it's not there was a deliberate choice on her part. I know it's hard to understand, since this is all stuff that's limited to TL nerds, but the characters are speaking a specific way in their own language. It's important to preserve that across languages as much as possible. And yeah, that means we don't change the way they speak. So if the boy isn't busting out slang, why the hell are you?!
 
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"Doggo" is slang that isn't present in the original. He didn't lose all composure and start baby talking the dog. And the problem is that the author actually had the option of including the slang if she so desired. So the fact that it's not there was a deliberate choice on her part. I know it's hard to understand, since this is all stuff that's limited to TL nerds, but the characters are speaking a specific way in their own language. It's important to preserve that across languages as much as possible. And yeah, that means we don't change the way they speak. So if the boy isn't busting out slang, why the hell are you?!
Considering how nitpicks you keep making against translations of others don't make much sense, I find your expertise of determining what does and what doesn't preserve the specific way characters speak to be questionable at best.
 
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Considering how nitpicks you keep making against translations of others don't make much sense, I find your expertise of determining what does and what doesn't preserve the specific way characters speak to be questionable at best.
Considering you don't speak Japanese, I find your expertise of determining how much sense my nitpicks make questionable at best.

No, I don't guess you would.
Expert response.
 
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Ugh, got busy with other matters and the forum software ate my draft at some point. Starting over...

"Tits" and "Boobs" also mean the same thing. Despite that, these words are used in different contexts by different people. And a story where a child walks up to his mom and asks about her "tits" is a very different one from a boy that asks about her "Boobs".
The distinction between "tits" and "boobs" is nothing like the distinction between "doggo" and "dog". In English, there's very little difference between a stranger referring to a "cute dog" and "cute doggo" they see on a walk.

Here, the young man used the plain word for "Dog", without devolving into cutesy names and speech patterns. And, as I keep saying: Japanese has equivalents for "Doggo", so the choice of wording is entirely deliberate.
He also used the colloquial "デカ", no keigo, and a more informal "なー" (instead of "な"). It was also written with no kanji—compare the author depicting his thoughts in ch. 2 with plenty of kanji despite him having hearts in his eyes while hugging Mii. There is an obvious level of informality and excitement that is perfectly reasonable to depict using "doggo".

Because I missed the ぬ at the end, mistakenly leaving it as デカいね かわいい in my mind. Thankfully, I can admit to my mistakes; I find that's a rare trait.

P.S.: It's な, not は
You're right, it should be "デカいぬかわいいなー".

Having said that, how did you miss that!? In the original, "デカいぬ" was all on its own line. For someone who claims to be so knowledgeable about Japanese, it's a rather simple thing to miss.

Yeah, Mikan's a girl's name.

Exhibit A: https://toloveru.fandom.com/wiki/Yūki_Mikan

Exhibit B: https://namedic.jp/names/yomi/f/みかん
I suspect there might have been a misunderstanding with the dog name thing on your end.
I can't say I spent much time on it, but the point was that the dog's gender was uncertain, not that female wasn't the best guess. And look: https://namedic.jp/names/yomi/m/みかん It does seem like it can be used as a male name, although it is certainly much rarer.

(Also, Takase doesn't seem to know the dog, hadn't heard the name at that point, and was across the street from it. Why would he assume female when the default in English tends to be male?)

The second line, had it not literally said いぬ would have been perfectly translatable into English without literally mentioning the dog, since the subject is obvious from context. Turns out, English has implicit subjects too!
English has far fewer implicit subjects than Japanese. There are a lot of places in English where the subject is mandatory, even if you just use "he", "she", "they", or "it"—and good luck if the speaker is supposed to know which would be appropriate while the reader is not, since English makes it awkward to do so.

I don't understand the question. Both languages have normal words for "Dog" to be used in more formal, serious conversation, then cutesy words for "dog" to be used in more informal contexts. That's your correspondence. Just because we don't have the equivalent formality for words like です and verb endings like ます doesn't mean there's literally no correspondence in formality at all between the languages. English and Japanese both have Formal registers. That Japanese happens to have more formal registers that are more pervasive doesn't really change that.
I said "one-to-one correspondence". Sure, English has more and less formal ways of speaking, but translating from Japanese to English still inevitably involves losing some formality differences and/or making alternative choices as to how to represent the many more ones in Japanese. And, yes, that sometimes means using vocabulary choices—which English has a surfeit of—as a substitute.

You've become stuck on there being a one-to-one correspondence between "いぬ" and "dog" vs. "ワンワン" and "doggo"—which is itself not accurate—while ignoring or minimizing the many other aspects of the speech that needed to be conveyed.

The boy didn't break social convention and bust out the slang because he saw a cute dog. He kept a perfectly normal, appropriate distance while also expressing interest.
He spoke loudly and excitedly enough to cause the dog across the street to start barking happily and inconveniencing its owner. He did use slang ("デカ") but didn't use keigo, and to a stranger. Sure, he could have been much worse, but your characterization of this speech doesn't seem to match its actual presentation.

But tell you what: If the anime ever comes out for this, and the boy sounds like he's absolutely gushing over the dog, I'll gladly eat crow in the forum of your choosing.
What would that prove? Anime makes changes all of the time to its presentation of events. Maybe stick to the evidence at hand?

"Doggo" is slang that isn't present in the original. He didn't lose all composure and start baby talking the dog. And the problem is that the author actually had the option of including the slang if she so desired.
The author also had the option of writing "大犬がかわいいですな。", but didn't do that, either.

So the fact that it's not there was a deliberate choice on her part.
Ditto for various more formal versions that could have been used, too.

I know it's hard to understand, since this is all stuff that's limited to TL nerds, but the characters are speaking a specific way in their own language. It's important to preserve that across languages as much as possible. And yeah, that means we don't change the way they speak.
Haven't you noticed that you've been talking to TL nerds (or in my case, a minor linguistics nerd) all this time? If anything, the arguments against you have mostly been about how preserving this across languages is more complicated than your position that "いぬ" can only be translated as "dog" would allow.

So if the boy isn't busting out slang, why the hell are you?!
Why the hell am I what? I didn't translate this. (And, again, he did use slang.)
 
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The distinction between "tits" and "boobs" is nothing like the distinction between "doggo" and "dog". In English, there's very little difference between a stranger referring to a "cute dog" and "cute doggo" they see on a walk.
"Doggo" is slang, and "Dog" is not. The fact that "Doggo" isn't considered a vulgar expression doesn't invalidate the analogy.
He also used the colloquial "デカ", no keigo, and a more informal "なー" (instead of "な"). It was also written with no kanji—compare the author depicting his thoughts in ch. 2 with plenty of kanji despite him having hearts in his eyes while hugging Mii. There is an obvious level of informality and excitement that is perfectly reasonable to depict using "doggo".
The choice to use, or not use, Kanji is a stylistic choice, not some ultimate signal of "informality" or "Excitement". Case in point: According to you, the author used Kanji when he "had hearts in his eyes". So what, was he less excited with the cat? Was he actually a dog person this whole time?

Fact is, there are equivalents in Japanese for "Doggo". He didn't use them.
You're right, it should be "デカいぬかわいいなー".

Having said that, how did you miss that!? In the original, "デカいぬ" was all on its own line. For someone who claims to be so knowledgeable about Japanese, it's a rather simple thing to miss.
The same way you missed it being な and not は: Human error.

I want you to look in a mirror and ask yourself: "Am I really making a big deal about a guy admitting to misreading a single character as a second, similar character one time as he scanned through a page?"

I can't say I spent much time on it, but the point was that the dog's gender was uncertain, not that female wasn't the best guess. And look: https://namedic.jp/names/yomi/m/みかん It does seem like it can be used as a male name, although it is certainly much rarer.

(Also, Takase doesn't seem to know the dog, hadn't heard the name at that point, and was across the street from it. Why would he assume female when the default in English tends to be male?)
A) The dog didn't bark once.
B) He heard her name first. He'd know it's a girl.
C) You can always check for cock'n'balls.
He spoke loudly and excitedly enough to cause the dog across the street to start barking happily and inconveniencing its owner. He did use slang ("デカ") but didn't use keigo, and to a stranger. Sure, he could have been much worse, but your characterization of this speech doesn't seem to match its actual presentation.
He raised his voice exactly once, then remarked to himself how cute the dog was. When he spoke to the stranger, he used Keigo.
What would that prove? Anime makes changes all of the time to its presentation of events. Maybe stick to the evidence at hand?
I am. But the evidence at hand is he raised his voice once, spoke to himself normally, then went along his merry way. You're the one that's insisting he devolved into baby talk.
The author also had the option of writing "大犬がかわいいですな。", but didn't do that, either.
No she didn't. Nobody talks like that. I know it looks technically possible, since you've successfully paired 大 and 犬, which does technically work out to "Big Dog", it's not a sentence any speaker would make. I figure you're trying to make a more polite version of the sentence, which might be something like ”大きい犬さんかわいいですねー”

Fact is, he used relatively neutral Japanese to remark to himself how the dog is cute.
Ditto for various more formal versions that could have been used, too.
There's, like, one.

But with this, we're finally on the same page: She specifically didn't choose the more formal register, and she definitely didn't devolve to cutesy slang. So I guess this case is closed.
Haven't you noticed that you've been talking to TL nerds (or in my case, a minor linguistics nerd) all this time?
No, not really. I have high standards, and I don't often sit down to analyze whoever it is I'm talking to online.

If anything, the arguments against you have mostly been about how preserving this across languages is more complicated than your position that "いぬ" can only be translated as "dog" would allow.
No, it's actually relatively easy in this case. Translating "いぬ" as anything other than "Dog" smears the word across levels of formality unnecessarily. Both languages have equivalents in the casual, neutral, and formal levels, so there's no need to smear the neutral-formal over the casual. If the author meant "doggo", she'd use "ワンちゃん", or something to that effect. If 犬 can be "doggo", what's left for "ワンちゃん”? And what about "ワンワン"? You might get away with "Doggie", I guess. But then you're still down one, while completely ignoring the fact that いぬ isn't supposed to be cutesy slang in the first place.

Why the hell am I what? I didn't translate this. (And, again, he did use slang.)
You didn't translate the chapter, but you're translating the word.
 

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