Onii-chan Is Done For! - Ch. 86.9 - Minato-kun is Done For? 1.5

[CinderSquall]

With all the talks in here, I just find it kind of terrifying that somehow people are willing to die on a hill defending forced gender changes...

Like it's one thing to celebrate representation but embracing series that only shows it's characters being bi-curious after getting their gender changed feels very very off...

Like there's a lot of other works that handle gender more properly(Love Me For Who I Am is one of my favorite), yet people cling harder to the "comedy genderbend is for rehab" series.

 

[Argon2409]

With all the talks in here, I just find it kind of terrifying that somehow people are willing to die on a hill defending forced gender changes...

Like it's one thing to celebrate representation but embracing series that only shows it's characters being bi-curious after getting their gender changed feels very very off...

Like there's a lot of other works that handle gender more properly(Love Me For Who I Am is one of my favorite), yet people cling harder to the "comedy genderbend is for rehab" series.

Idk people find forcefem hot? fun? affirming? Like it's a "safe" way to explore transsexuality, because it's due to external factors rather than internal desire. Remember as well that this is a work of fiction, and fiction is something humans use to explore otherwise uncomfortable or harmful ideas in a safe manner.

There defo is a correlation between accepting yourself being queer in one way and then accepting it in other. There's also this thing where trans people only feel comfortable thinking about romance and sexuality after gender affirming treatment. Basically the dysphoria response kinda kills it and euphoria brings it out.

Considering how Japan is generally socially conservative, it's nice seeing people try to tackle the subject despite maybe not knowing everything. Also the chasery aspect of it being treated as fetish material, like Boku Girl. Eugh. I do respect the balls of the author to actually make her trans, but like come on.

 

[CinderSquall]

Idk people find forcefem hot? fun? affirming? Like it's a "safe" way to explore transsexuality, because it's due to external factors rather than internal desire. Remember as well that this is a work of fiction, and fiction is something humans use to explore otherwise uncomfortable or harmful ideas in a safe manner.

There defo is a correlation between accepting yourself being queer in one way and then accepting it in other. There's also this thing where trans people only feel comfortable thinking about romance and sexuality after gender affirming treatment. Basically the dysphoria response kinda kills it and euphoria brings it out.

Considering how Japan is generally socially conservative, it's nice seeing people try to tackle the subject despite maybe not knowing everything. Also the chasery aspect of it being treated as fetish material, like Boku Girl. Eugh. I do respect the balls of the author to actually make her trans, but like come on.

I guess I'm just tired of the double standards that when a person likes series that are lolisho, incest or other "problematic things" they assume you also like those irl...

But when the "problematic things" are on a series that has "lgbtq+ representation" people somehow remember the separation of fiction and reality...

But again that could easily just fall to social media pushing said arguments to me so there's that.

 

[Dragon5eye]

I guess I'm just tired of the double standards that when a person likes series that are lolisho, incest or other "problematic things" they assume you also like those irl...

But when the "problematic things" are on a series that has "lgbtq+ representation" people somehow remember the separation of fiction and reality...

But again that could easily just fall to social media pushing said arguments to me so there's that.

That's mostly nonsense logic from antis. They will pick and choose what they will give a degree of separation from fiction based on what makes them uncomfortable. IMO, I wouldn't pay them much mind. Social media is def pushing that onto you. Also, Onimai does get targeted by antis for being lolisho. Definitely after how horny the anime was. It's not being avoided just because it's queer.

Like there's a lot of other works that handle gender more properly(Love Me For Who I Am is one of my favorite), yet people cling harder to the "comedy genderbend is for rehab" series.

But ye dif queer people like different kind of stories. They won't all gravitate to the same ones. Love Me For Who I Am is boring to some where Onimai isn't. Also, I know a lot of queer people who are into the lolisho aspect of it. Representation is wanted, but it also has to be entertaining for that person individually.

And like Argon2409 said, having this stuff be forced can sometimes be a comforting thing. A lot of trans people and feminine guys feel shame for who they are in real life because their environment treats them badly; having this kinda thing forced upon the MC in the story can absolve them of any of that guilt they've internalized. Let's them have guilt-free fun!

 

[CinderSquall]

Like Argon2409 said, having this stuff be forced can sometimes be a comforting thing. A lot of trans people and feminine guys feel shame for who they are in real life because their environment treats them badly; having this kinda thing forced upon the MC in the story can absolve them of any of that guilt they've internalized. Let's them have guilt-free fun!

I'm all for having fun and enjoying fiction, all I'm saying with the forced part is playing with consent is a slippery slope, which can be funny in fiction but is terrible when applied irl... Which is what I've seen some extremists want to push... Granted extremists are almost always terrible.

 

[Argon2409]

I guess I'm just tired of the double standards that when a person likes series that are lolisho, incest or other "problematic things" they assume you also like those irl...

But when the "problematic things" are on a series that has "lgbtq+ representation" people somehow remember the separation of fiction and reality...

One of those things is not like the other, one of those things does not belong

Consider the first issue is because it's sexually explicit material involving drawings of children. It's not legally wrong, but socially is, because it's sexually explicit material involving children.

Consider also that you're grouping a bunch of diverse opinions into one... stuffed... person suit? Idk I'm sure there's a name for it, like a bunch of small little bits of people stuffed into some woven together idea suit of a person. Personally I love seeing terrible people do bad things, but everybody has their limit and have their topics they don't want to see.

 

[CinderSquall]

One of those things is not like the other, one of those things does not belong

Consider the first issue is because it's sexually explicit material involving drawings of children. It's not legally wrong, but socially is, because it's sexually explicit material involving children.

Consider also that you're grouping a bunch of diverse opinions into one... stuffed... person suit? Idk I'm sure there's a name for it, like a bunch of small little bits of people stuffed into some woven together idea suit of a person. Personally I love seeing terrible people do bad things, but everybody has their limit and have their topics they don't want to see.

You're acting as if I'm creating an imaginary issue even though it's pretty much the discourse in twitter, ironically the way you worded your reply just makes me think you do hold double standards for fictional stuff... To which I'm out, I'm too tired to argue about that...

 

[Argon2409]

You're acting as if I'm creating an imaginary issue even though it's pretty much the discourse in twitter, ironically the way you worded your reply just makes me think you do hold double standards for fictional stuff... To which I'm out, I'm too tired to argue about that...

I'm talking about strawmanning. You're making a strawman out of a diverse group of people. People go to twitter to complain about stuff, big shocker. If you talk to real people you'll see that everybody is comfortable with different things, and not comfortable with different things.

Also that last bit, do you mind elaborating? I do hold double standards for fictional stuff as compared to real stuff: I'm really against real incest but I'm very fine with seeing it depicted in media. See, the difference there is one impacts real people, and one does not. Media, again, is a safe way to explore dangerous or damaging topics and their ramifications.

 

[MidnighTea]

Force-fem is a release fantasy. An experience of AMAB people being able to enjoy "what you want" (having a female body + role) without the indoctrinated shame kicking in. If you were overcome and overpowered, you're no longer "obligated" to put on a show of being a man and can just let go and enjoy being a woman. That a lot of trans girls first experienced emotional and spiritual freedom thanks to such works is why they associate them so strongly with identity awakening. They see themselves in the character.

This is kind of why I think Minato is a bit of a snag, because he arguably even acts even trans-ier than Mahiro ever did. But his moe appeal is indeed still primarily in the femboy camp, that one Aoi dream sequence aside. Causing... yeah, this multi-page thread of raw feelings from two groups of readers who both ironically agree on the most important thing in the end. (gender role subversion)

Either way, if one is going to stroke their chin about the ethics of Mihari force-femming her brother you're about seven years and 80+ chapters behind on doing so. Or indeed, not even accounting for Mahiro's own opinion on what was done to them. (Mahiro loves and trusts Mihari very deeply, the sibling relationship is one of the best parts of Onimai -- "turn me back!" never once comes out of Mahiro's mouth, you can check)

 

[frostmonolith]

It took about 86 chapters and an extra to finally have a heated gender-related argument popping up out of nowhere. It held on long, but i guess good times will last, huh.

 

[tarrasqueSorcerer]

I found this and thought I should share. In the physical release, Nekotofu directly refers to Minato as 男の娘 (otoko no ko, femboy). Maybe that will finally put this discussion to rest.

https://imgur.com/a/oliGePe

 

[Argon2409]

I found this and though I should share. In the physical release, Nekotofu directly refers to Minato as 男の娘 (otoko no ko, femboy). Maybe that will finally put this discussion to rest.

Death of the author. Besides a lot of gender identities refer to themselves as "femboys", including cis men, amab enbys, afab enbys, trans men, and trans women, because gender isn't a simple thing.

 

[tarrasqueSorcerer]

Death of the author. Besides a lot of gender identities refer to themselves as "femboys", including cis men, amab enbys, afab enbys, trans men, and trans women, because gender isn't a simple thing.

That's funny to hear from the same crowd that shouts "Daisuke confirmed Brisket is a girl!"
And don't try to scare me with that word salad. Otoko no ko means a specific thing.

 

[Dragon5eye]

Otoko no ko means a specific thing.

If you look on the Japanese wiki for 男の娘 you actually get differing definitions of the word otoko no ko, some of which include both femboys and trans people. It is not a clearcut definition of [assigned male]+[indentifies as a man]+[has a feminine appearance]. It's probably more accurate to think of otoko no ko as a subculture that can cover a few different kinds of people with similar experiences (some of which who identify differently).

Here's a diagram from that same wiki page:

 

[Argon2409]

That's funny to hear from the same crowd that shouts "Daisuke confirmed Brisket is a girl!"

She looks like a girl, acts like a girl, says she's a girl, she goes through the whole trans experience, she exists in a property with a lot of differing gender identities; you don't need an author to get what's going on with her character.

 

[Gian]

Things were going so well, but I guess the comment section had to become insufferable eventually.