Ore no Genjitsu wa Ren’ai Game??: ka to Omottara Inochigake no Game datta - Vol. 2 Ch. 7 - Truth and Lie (4)

[Yourself]

At the end of the day, he’s a random neet that got dragged into this against his will. It’s not up to him to dismantle a drug and sex trafficking ring. That is the job of the police. He took down the head which is still a great feat for a normal guy working alone.

 

[loki266]

@criver Well, we can all have opinions on different subjects and still don't care for the world around us. Tell me why he should had cared about the whole brothel thing. That was too much for him to handle alone, even with his "powers". Yakuza, powerful politicians and businessmen, you name it, he wouldn't stand a chance. And even if he had a slight chance to bring this whole scheme down, he probably wouldn't even be rewarded for doing so (yeah, the A rank girl was in the scheme, but we can't tell for sure if he would be rewarded for bringing her down when she was not his current target). At least in my point of view, if I was in his shoes, I wouldn't care sh*t about powerful people orgies scheme or a truck driver killing a horrible person like that woman by accident. My neck is on the clock, I want to get out of this situation and I can get out of this situation if I complete certain objectives, so I will complete these objectives. Yeah, I indirectly killed a human being, that sucks (well, she was doing harm to people, so that was not too bad) and clock keeps ticking so I have to move on.
For a guy that tried to use the game system to rape a woman on his first chapter, don't expect him to feel remorse for people that he doesn't even know (the truck driver for example). By the way, I don't think he ruined that truck driver's life, it was an accident and witnesses and surveillance cameras can prove his innocence.

 

[criver]

@Yourself: My point is not that it is his job to do this (even though it's easily feasible with the powers he has been granted - without having to risk his life) - it's that he fails to realize what he himself is. This is obvious in the way he acts and thinks. He believes that he's doing the right thing, while ignoring every inconvenient fact. It's the irony and cognitive dissonance in this case that gets me. The author is either a genius that planned all of this, or he's simply bad at writing. I'm leaning towards the later from what I have seen up till now.

@loki266: I am not saying that he should care, I am saying that his actions and thoughts are inconsistent. He acts like he cares, and deceives himself into believing he does (refer to the parts I mentioned in my last comment), while his actions betray his real nature.
And on the subject of bringing the whole thing down - it's not a slight chance - by abusing the powers given to him he can easily do virtually anything. Will he be rewarded for it? No. Do you need a reward in order to make things better when you can? At the very least he seems to believe that he's not a monster. His actions however are inconsistent with his beliefs.
His neck is not on the clock either, he has a year per assault. That's more than enough time for him to conquer the world with the powers he's been given, let alone make someone disappear.
He's not thinking "yeah I indirectly killed a human being" he believes that this is "for the best". At the same time he doesn't have the balls to kill her himself. He would rather somebody else does the dirty work.
You also bring a very good point - the fact that he tried to rape a woman in the beginning. If you carefully read the following chapters, you will notice his uncharacteristic change of heart (I would attribute that to bad writing - inconsistent characterisation). Once again - he seems to believe that he's a person with integrity, when in fact there is more than enough evidence for the opposite.
Also, if you run over a person, no matter if it was unavoidable, you can still get jailed depending on your country's laws. This generally falls under involuntary manslaughter.

 

[loki266]

@criver The thing is: Although he does have some millions on his game account, the game items are pretty expensive, so I'm pretty sure that no way he could abuse them until he brings down a whole scheme composed by politicians, yakuza and wealthy businessmen. THAT would be ridiculous and I would've sincerely dropped the manga if that happened. Unless the game has some pretty OP items, like teleporting, freezing time, clarivoyance, etc. Just saving&loading cannot save you of certain situations, like when he got ran over by the yakuza guy and almost couldn't scape.
Another thing that you insist in saying and I can't quite understand is "...he doesn't have the balls to kill her himself. He would rather somebody else does the dirty work." Why are you saying this? He never tried to actually kill her. He was just scaring her, maybe trying to torture her mentally and force her to confess her own crimes? I don't know, but we can be pretty sure that he wasn't trying stab her with that knife, neither trying to lead her on purpose to be ran ove by a vehicle on the street. Again, it was an accident.

Lastly, well... I don't know about Japan laws. I'm assuming that you live in a country that abide by the common law system. And I tell you that I live in a country that abide by the civil law system and even within countries using the same laws system there's always huge differences in laws and argue on the internet about that would be too boring and pointless. But I can assure you that if that accident happened in my country, that truck driver would never been thrown in prison, so that's why I stated that.

 

[VawX]

I just want to see what kinda reward he get in the next chapter after clearing D-rank girl, or if he actually clear it by killing her that way mmm...

 

[criver]

@loki266: You're forgetting the fact that he can go back in time. He can win the lottery, win on the stock market, place bets, duplicate items - needless to say he can produce a pretty much infinite amount of money by abusing the system. Note that his items can be bought with money too. He can always win more than what a save-load costs. And if he has money then he doesn't even need to deal directly with his victims.
He may not have tried to kill her intentionally, but the end result was the same. Additionally, we can see that he's fine with that from his thoughts on the matter: "More people will suffer if she lives... so maybe this is for the best". So we can safely assume that he himself does not want to kill her, but if somebody else does the dirty work then that's fine. And before you say that he didn't mean it turn out like that, I'll just remind you that he can turn back time. That pretty much equals to him knowingly deciding that she should die, as long as he doesn't have to kill her personally.
If we are talking about "common law" (whatever that's supposed to mean), then yes, you will get jailed if you run over a person on a crosswalk in most countries.

 

[loki266]

@criver

He can win the lottery, win on the stock market, place bets, duplicate items - needless to say he can produce a pretty much infinite amount of money by abusing the system.

Well man, I don't think is that simple. You see, if a nobody like him begin to win lotteries and play with the stock market out of nowhere, people (and the government) would began to suspect him easily. If he had the ability to save state without needing to using his hands, just with his mind, then yeah, maybe he could get into places.

And if he has money then he doesn't even need to deal directly with his victims.

If you are in a game that you have to deal with dangerous people with a lot of powerful contacts, you'll probably want to deal with this personally. Hiring random people will just increase the chances of you getting it back in the future. Unless he can manage to meet other players in the future and/or make really trustworthy friends.

About the killing. Well, I suppose we have different ideologies, because I fail to assume that - "[...]he himself does not want to kill her, but if somebody else does the dirty work then that's fine" - he thinks like that just because of that statement.

And before you say that he didn't mean it turn out like that, I'll just remind you that he can turn back time. That pretty much equals to him knowingly deciding that she should die, as long as he doesn't have to kill her personally.

That woman was too dangerous to deal with and he had already completed his objective. Why risk it all just for some moralism? This is a game with your life on board. If the targets don't kill you, the game will.

If we are talking about "common law" (whatever that's supposed to mean), then yes, you will get jailed if you run over a person on a crosswalk in most countries.

Basically common law and civil law are systems that can pretty much dictate how laws and execution of those laws works. In my country, you can get sentenced for involuntary manslaughter, sure, but in this case, where you have a random woman crossing the street carelessly, the penalty for killing her would be pretty low (maybe 2 to 4 years in jail). But heres's the catch: If you never commited any crimes before (in other words, you're a primary defendant) and you have a strong evidence (witnessess, surveillance cameras) that you could not avoid the accident with the given circumstances (naked woman crossing the street carelessly while running), there's no way that you'd be thrown in jail. Yeah, you'll get sentenced for involuntyary manslaughter regardless, but instead of being thrown in jail, you would get what we call a "alternative sentence", like volunteer services and/or fine payment for the victim's family. You see? Maybe for you that's not correct, because the laws and the culture of your country are totally different from mine's, but for me it's perfectly normal. Imagine you being thrown in jail with murderers, rapists and such for this involuntary manslaughter. Now that's what I would call bs.

With all that said, I now realize that our argument is kinda of pointless; I mean, we're kind arguing whose ideology is better or is more just than the other and there's no way we could ever have an agreement in that matter. Let's just keep reading the manga and see what happens.

 

[criver]

@loki266: But it is that simple. Nobody would stop you from buying or selling a stock. You do realize that many people started off as "nobodies" like him, right?
People can suspect him all they want for buying and selling the right stocks - at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Nobody can prove that he can turn back time, and it's even less likely somebody would think up such a ridiculous scenario, at worst they'll believe he has insider information, at best that he has enough data and a very good model for predicting the stock market. He can easily become the richest man alive.
And quite on the contrary - if you're dealing with dangerous people, you would rather leave that to professionals whose loyalty you can buy with money. Heck, he'd be able to buy the people that are above that woman. The argument how you would risk your neck to meet up with dangerous people, if you have the means to avoid it, is not logically consistent, unless the goal is to try one's luck. Saying that you won't get a severe sentence if you run over a person on a crosswalk is simply untrue for numerous countries, and specifically Japan. It's pretty clear cut who's in the wrong if you run over somebody on a crosswalk.
From your reply, I believe that we both agree on the next point: he's ok with the fact that she died because of him, or at the very least he's not willing to "risk" going back and killing her himself (which is risk free because of his spray). So in fact he is ok with killing her, as long as somebody else does the dirty work, since he can go back in time to change the outcome of this whole thing if he so wants. I believe this is a solid enough argument for my statement. He is basically unwilling to fix what can be easily fixed. I don't know what other conclusion you can get from this other that he's ok with it. If he was not ok, he would have gone back and changed it.
About the manslaughter. You seem to be intentionally avoiding the fact that she was on a crosswalk. In most western countries you can get up to a life sentence for this. In Japan even more so. So I am fairly certain that the unfortunate driver is ruined.

I don't think that our argument is ideological either. You're objectively wrong on various points. The "suspecting" argument is beyond weak - if we go by your logic nobody would buy and sell stocks because they would get "suspected". Not to mention that him cheating cannot be proven.

 

[loki266]

@criver
Many people? What are you saying? Maybe there's one or another that really began low and rose to the top, but most of them already had a really good start.

The "suspecting" argument is beyond weak - if we go by your logic nobody would buy and sell stocks because they would get "suspected". Not to mention that him cheating cannot be proven.

Yeah, because every stockholder have a almost 100% accuracy in stock trades, right (Because him being naive sometimes, I'm pretty sure he would've abused his powers carelessly and begin to raise suspicions). Maybe people cannot prove him cheating, but most likely powerful people would want to know how a nobody like him could be successful out of nowhere, so quick. So they could send some goons to have some chit-chat with him for him spew his great secret methods to be succesfull.

leave that to professionals whose loyalty you can buy with money

Hahahaha, so naive. You can't buy that with money alone. You have to prove yourself as being worthy of being loyal to in the first place. In this case, you have to prove that you're smart and you know what are you doing so that you won't go down easily. You also need to have some sort of charisma to make people loyal to you. Because people could easily double-cross him just for the money. Let's just work for this dumb rich kid to earn some good money and then when things get ugly, let's just get rid of him and earn more money from his possible enemies.

About the crosswalk, yeah, I avoided it because we couldn't see clearly the traffic light' state: was it green? yellow? red? But seeing now it looks like it was yellow, so yeah, it was an accident and there's no way that driver could ever get a life sentence for that. Are you a driver? Imagine you driving and you see a traffic light with a crosswalk and it's green for you (driver), then you're driving normally and then became yellow when you're about to get past that crosswalk. There's no way you gonna brake, because you're already about to cross the crosswalking, so you just maintain whatever your speed is (probably the speed limit of the street). Then a woman come out of nowhere running without even looking foward. Yeah man, totally the truck driver's fault, totally.

I don't think that our argument is ideological either

Are you sure? Because this whole argument began when you stated that you disliked his "moral inconsistencies". When you talk about morality, you talk about your ideologies, what you think it's right or wrong.

So in fact he is ok with killing her, as long as somebody else does the dirty work, since he can go back in time to change the outcome of this whole thing if he so wants.

Yeah, but he couldn't have predicted the outcome but when it happened, why the fuck bother going back in time if you got a mission clear? That woman was worth saving? Would be worth going back, killing her with his own hands and getting risk of leaving evidences of his murder behind? Just for the "morality" sake? Give it a rest, please.

He is basically unwilling to fix what can be easily fixed

Strong evidence that this is about morality and ideologies. You see, in your point of view, it was wrong killing her using a 3rd party (truck). So if he was OK with the outcome of her being killed, he needs to act like a man, go back in time and just kill her with his own hands. Because he's a real man with real guts. Maybe he isn't a hero of justice, but at least he has to do things fair and square to prove himself for... What? Who? Dunno, but he has to do it.

If he was not ok, he would have gone back and changed it.

I don't think I've ever said that he was not ok in killing her and if I've ever said that, it was a mistype, so I'm sorry for that. Even if he was not OK, like I said before, why bother getting back in time risk it all when you just accomplished your mission, when you're relivied that this is over and have to move on? He doesn't need to go back in time and do things "in the right way" just to prove some petty morality theme. He just wants to successfully assault those targets and get rid of this game, luckily being able to not being caught by the police or something when it ends.

 

[criver]

@loki266: You are strawmanning. I never said he needs 100% accuracy. He just needs to have 50%+ accuracy.
Like it or not people care about money. He can hire people no matter how dumb he is. As long as they stand to gain they will work for him. The only thing he needs to make sure, so that they don't double-cross him, is that they gain more by working for him than against him.
You can argue whether the driver was in the wrong or not. Still won't change the fact that he ran over a person on a cross-walk on a yellow signal. He will get jail time, especially considering that this is Japan. Consider that he probably has a family and a job. The MC certainly ruined his life.
Also since you mentioned leaving evidence - he already did. In fact he was chasing a woman with a knife in the middle of the night. Granted, he looked like the dead girl, but they can still find evidence of him being in her apartment right before she ran out naked. I am pretty sure that cleanly getting rid of the body, rather than causing a scene in front of her home would have warranted less police attention.
Note that ideology and morality are two different terms. I am just saying that the characterisation is inconsistent. He acts in a way that doesn't support what he's thinking. There's a disconnection between his beliefs (betrayed by his words and thoughts in this chapter) and his actions.
Sure the issue has to do with "morality", but this is only secondary - the main issue are the inconsistencies. I wouldn't care if he used whatever underhanded and cowardly means as long as his thoughts and actions remained consistent, which is clearly not the case here.
If he really did care only about getting the job done, as you say, you wouldn't have been specifically shown on numerous occasions his thoughts on the matter regarding the dead girl. There's something more to this than simply "successfully assault", we're shown that he feels like this is almost some kind of vengeance that he is enacting. And that's exactly why my discussion with you started in the first place. You said that he doesn't believe that he is some hero of justice as if that had any bearing on what I had said. We were shown time and time again in this chapter that he does actually believe that he's delivering justice in some sense. Starting from him seeing the photo of the dead girl, through the realization of him uncovering the impersonation, to the culmination where he thinks : "More people will suffer if she lives" - he's basically turning the whole thing around as if what he did is just and as if it is for the greater good.

 

[loki266]

@criver And I didn't say that he needed 100%, I said "almost 100%", so it could be 70,80, 90% for all I care. It doesn't matter what accuracy, really. A nobody like him winning huge chunks of money in a short period of time and people will begin to ask questions.
Money alone can't buy everyone. Even if he could pay more than his enemies, if he got no influence, nobody would really respect him in that criminal web. People would just see him as a dumb rich kid that they can squeeze some money off until he doesn't have utility for them anymore.

He will get jail time, especially considering that this is Japan.

Like I said, the truck was almost crossing the traffic light when she suddenly appeared running in front of him. It was an accident caused by HER (well, technically by MC, but nobody will know that for now). Unless you get a really shit lawyer, I find difficult for him to get jail time. I don't now exactly about Japan, but usually you get sentenced for involuntary manslaughter when you, the defendant, was in some way careless. In this case, if he had crossed the red light or if he was above the speed limit. Then I could've agree with you. But since the author didn't give us many hints, we can just make assumptions and if you really want we can go on and go on about that.

Granted, he looked like the dead girl, but they can still find evidence of him being in her apartment right before she ran out naked.

Well, you're wrong here because chapter 8 was released here

Spoiler

and shows him getting rid of some evidences that would be troubling for him. The author didn't show him exactly getting rid of ALL possible evidences, but given he's becoming more and more cautious, we can safely assume that he got rid of them

Sure, literally speaking, ideology and morality are not the same thing. But they're sure well married. Morality come from ideologies. There's no way that morality exists without some kind of ideology behind.

There's something more to this than simply "successfully assault", we're shown that he feels like this is almost some kind of vengeance that he is enacting.

Nah, I don't think so. Sure, he can think that the dead girl was a tragic victim and that he did justice in her place, but I think this is just a secondary feeling for him. He needed to assault the bad woman, the outcome is that she was killed, he felt relief PLUS he did justice for the dead girl and the society itself. So it was one of those win-win situations for him. In none of the panels I could see him getting motivaded because he now knows what a horrible things that woman did to the girl and now he'll destroy that woman, not because my neck is on the clock, but because she needs to pay for her sins!!

And I think I can now see what's your problem: You had too much expectations from this character. Humans are flawed by nature, this is the same guy who tried to rape a woman when she was put into sleep by him, but now he'll think before he acts. He's learning, he's growing up, so it won't be unusual to see him putting his thoughts in place sometimes. Maybe at the end of the manga he'll be thinking that he's really a hero of justice and that he's doing a favor for society getting hid of those woman, even if his methods condradicts his beliefs. Or maybe he'll become a cold person that don't care if he's doing harm to those around him, as long as he gets the job done. We'll see.

 

[criver]

@loki266:
So in your head the moment you gain some money from stocks a bunch of goons come to have a chat with you? I'll leave this as it is, maybe you'll realize how paranoid this sounds.
Sure, money can't buy everyone. He could easily pay a hitman to kill this woman however - he didn't seem bothered from using a truck driver anyways. And I think you're misunderstanding something - he doesn't need to personally meet anybody that he pays to do his dirty work for him. Quite on the contrary, you would have to be retarded to meet up in person with a hitman. Money talks.
Btw nobody cares about "almost", the fact is he ran over a person in Japan on a crosswalk on a yellow traffic light. I don't know whether you're aware, but when a similar incident had happened in Japan a few years ago, where the light was red (the cyclist using the crossroad was basically in the wrong), people were outraged that the driver didn't get jailed. I think you can make a conclusion for yourself about what would happen to a truckdriver that runs over somebody on a yellow signal on a crosswalk.
Also MC's way of getting rid of evidence is hilarious. We're not in the 60s anymore, forensics has come a long way.
Welp, you went and said it: "he did justice for the dead girl and society itself". If you can't find anything wrong with this statement, then I think I understand why you cannot comprehend what my point is.
And no, my problem is not that I have expectations from the MC. It's rather that I have expectations from the author to write a consistent plot with consistent characters. I don't really care what the MC would be thinking at the end, if his actions do not agree with whatever he's thinking. People may be flawed,and they may say one thing, and do another, but unless mentally ill, they usually do not think one thing and do the opposite. Basically the character is not believable, because his characterisation is inconsistent.

 

[loki266]

@criver It's not "some money". You've said that he could "easily abuse his powers" to buy expensive items from the game shop and this requires millions. I don't think millions of a given currency is "some money". So yes, I still stand when I say that it's no so simple that just using save state to exploit stock trading/winning lotteries and thinking people won't notice or won't do anything about it.
This "hiring" hitman is so dumb, seriously. Do you think Hitmen never got caught? And that he can be severely exposed if the police caught one, they can force they to talk, giving them some sort of agreement? If you have money and don't have powers like his, yeah, usually people take the risk of hiring a hitmen to do the job. But why risk being caught because of a 3rd party snitches when you can just do the job properly using wonderful powers and the only person that'll know in the end is you. Man, don't be naive. Money talks, yes. Can money buy loyalty alone? No (Is what you've stated before and I've disagreed with you).

Do you still want to talk about the truck accident? Fine be me.
I really noticed that you don't know anything about laws or execution of laws. Not every case on the court will be treated in the same way. So, even if you google now for accidents on crosswalks in Japan, usually when you read about stuff like this on a magazine, they never give the readers the entire technical reports on the case. What were the circumstances? Was the driver being careless? Could he be able to avoid the accident if he did this or that? Your example is legit, but like you've said, it was a similar incident, it was not the same. Again, different circumstnaces. It's not up to the population to give a veredict, it's up to the justice system and the laws. That's why they exist in the first place. If you judged while being biased towards what the general population wants, you better start off killing every criminal that got caught for whatever crime they commit, because I can assure you that this is what the general population wants the most.

Also MC's way of getting rid of evidence is hilarious.

I find funny you saying this when you've stated before that if he wanted, he could've killed the bad woman with his own hands and it would've been more "easy" to get rid of the evidences. If you found him hilarious for getting rid of the evidences in this scneario, I bet it would've been more hilarious if he followed your suggestion and killed her with his owns hands.

It's rather that I have expectations from the author to write a consistent plot with consistent characters.

Well, sometimes author like to use character development. It's too early to say that this is bad writting. Maybe the author is doing this on purpose? Because, you know, he's slowly developing MC's character? Or maybe it could be really a bad writting, but who knows? We won't know until the end of this manga, this I'm sure.

People may be flawed,and they may say one thing, and do another, but unless mentally ill, they usually do not think one thing and do the opposite.

Maybe, but this can be applied to hypocrites too. You try to lie to yourself, but in the end of the day, you can't and you do stupid things. This can be character development or bad writting.

 

[criver]

@loki266: Million yen that is, do divide by ~ 100 to get dollars. You can stay with your opinion that buying and selling the right stocks is somehow very dangerous, I don't mind.
You're strawmanning again. The only thing he needs to do is provide a target and an initial pay, and provide the rest upon work completion. He doesn't have to meet the person he's paying. It's actually funny you mention that he should do the job himself since this just ups the chances of him getting caught.
You're nitpicking at this point. You fail to realize that a judge is part of the population, that's why I gave the example. So the probability of him having the same ideas and values is high. Especially considering that running over a person on a cross walk on a yellow light is a criminal offence - the driver would be considered in the wrong in most countries. Basically even without this argument, the driver would get jailed 8 out of 10 times. You're free to disagree all you want, you'll just be factually wrong.
It's also funny how you're trying to misrepresent what I've said by taking it out of context just so that it will fit your narrative. I said that the MC is less likely to get caught by killing her and getting rid of the body cleanly rather than making a scene in front of her home, which is true. Since the police won't come knocking two minutes later. He'll have also enough time to prepare at the very least. In the worst case they'll treat it as a missing person case. In the current scenario they are sure to suspect attempted murder because of the witnesses and her running out at night naked from her apartment. And let's also remember that my initial suggestion is to pay a professional for this, which is the safest. It's you who's suggesting that him doing it is more reliable than a professional.
You also don't seem to know the definition of hypocrite. A hypocrite claims beliefs which are inconsistent with his actions, he doesn't actually think the opposite of what he does - that would be a mental disorder.

 

[rigald00]

mmnknmommommnknknnkknmmkn omomkomom no

 

[ScrotalLingerie]

Wasting his powers. Didn't even rape her before reloading https://mangadex.org/chapter/339898/40 and now she's dead ?

 

[Eligma]

Get isekai'd m8

 

[xretardedgecko]

my man is a quick-witted one

 

[harrisonchew10]

So much wall of text nice.

 

[Enceeee]

now she got isekaid to another world where she was sold off as a sex slave