Oshibana! - Ch. 22

[hiddentheory]

Incels stay mad

 

[comeonnow0]

Oh I'm well aware that I'm in the minority among the readership on this website. That just gives me further confidence that I'm right. Maybe you haven't noticed but this website, particularly fans of het male-led romcoms, tend to be extremely misogynist and homophobic. It's not a coincidence that MD gives hate to every single lesbian side character in a het romcom manga, not just Marika.

You are very, very clearly mixing things up. I'm not the other people. I'm only pointing out one issue with what you previously wrote. But then you go saying you're right on a different point, so you feel confident you're right on all of it.

Let me be clear. I actually don't really like Sawa that much either. She has her problems. Your earlier post about her defending sexual harassment is valid.

But then you went and said Marika is the only reason this isn't a snoozefest. That's a load of crap. Then you said you know you're in the minority, so you know you're right? What kind of ego is this?

You don't decide if this is a snoozefest or not. Your self-admittedly minority opinion isn't the deciding factor.

And it's not just here on Mangadex. You can read other comments on English too. My online translate skills for Japanese comments are bad, so if you want to show me that the Japanese readers have the same opinion, then sure, I'll admit to being wrong on this.

But you have this weird-as-hell conceit that you feel more confident you're right when you're in the minority... Even though being in the minority on this fundamentally makes you wrong. You literally can't be in the minority on the snoozefest issue and be right. But you apparently don't realize that.

 

[comeonnow0]

Incels stay mad

Lol, u mad, bro?

I don't even care here. Seems like you do, though, based on your comments on multiple chapters.

 

[Iosif]

Can we move the fuck on from this bitch's arc and STAY in the fmc and mc's arc? I know the author is trying to sell the r18 works but fuck don't drag this shit out

Oh right there was a reason I hadn't dropped this.
Wait it's not that-

 

[Mangamoz]

You are very, very clearly mixing things up. I'm not the other people. I'm only pointing out one issue with what you previously wrote. But then you go saying you're right on a different point, so you feel confident you're right on all of it.

Let me be clear. I actually don't really like Sawa that much either. She has her problems. Your earlier post about her defending sexual harassment is valid.

But then you went and said Marika is the only reason this isn't a snoozefest. That's a load of crap. Then you said you know you're in the minority, so you know you're right? What kind of ego is this?

You don't decide if this is a snoozefest or not. Your self-admittedly minority opinion isn't the deciding factor.

And it's not just here on Mangadex. You can read other comments on English too. My online translate skills for Japanese comments are bad, so if you want to show me that the Japanese readers have the same opinion, then sure, I'll admit to being wrong on this.

But you have this weird-as-hell conceit that you feel more confident you're right when you're in the minority... Even though being in the minority on this fundamentally makes you wrong. You literally can't be in the minority on the snoozefest issue and be right. But you apparently don't realize that.

The person is a bad faith actor throwing out strawman arguments, probably some twittard, press the ignore button on them and forget about them.

Not worth our time.

 

[Coldlight]

I wonder if this is the beginning of Marika entering an "end of my first love" arc. TBH I don't really mind seeing this current arc about her, if it means she develops into a better character than have her stay unlikable for the rest of the manga. I guess I'm in the minority since I don't really hate her, and I'm still rooting for Hachiouji to win and get a real relationship out of this. According to Sawa, Marika's hatred of the opposite sex comes from a mix of childhood trauma and train molesters, so it's not like he's got zero chance.

I guess it helps my case that I see Marika as bisexual and not a lesbian, because if she were, she'd never even think of getting into a sex friends relationship with a boy, even as a joke. That wouldn't make sense to me, if she were lesbian she'd sooner be sex friends with another girl instead. It would have ended after the first time with Hachiouji (if it happened at all, and most likely only due to sexual curiosity), because then she'd likely have found it disgusting enough not to do again; but sexually speaking, she's fine with him and actually accepts being friends with benefits enough to regularly come to his apartment herself.

 

[Mangamoz]

I wonder if this is the beginning of Marika entering an "end of my first love" arc. TBH I don't really mind seeing this current arc about her, if it means she develops into a better character than have her stay unlikable for the rest of the manga. I guess I'm in the minority since I don't really hate her, and I'm still rooting for Hachiouji to win and get a real relationship out of this. According to Sawa, Marika's hatred of the opposite sex comes from a mix of childhood trauma and train molesters, so it's not like he's got zero chance.

I guess it helps my case that I see Marika as bisexual and not a lesbian, because if she were, she'd never even think of getting into a sex friends relationship with a boy, even as a joke. That wouldn't make sense to me, if she were lesbian she'd sooner be sex friends with another girl instead. It would have ended after the first time with Hachiouji (if it happened at all, and most likely only due to sexual curiosity), because then she'd likely have found it disgusting enough not to do again; but sexually speaking, she's fine with him and actually accepts being friends with benefits enough to regularly come to his apartment herself.

What she is doing is emotional self-harm.

A lesbian who experienced sexual harrasment, purposely threatening to go whore herself out to men is the ultimate emotional suicide.

She does not intend to get better, she wants it to hurt.

What she needs is professional mental help before she decides emotional self-harm is not enough to satisfy her urge to hurt herself.

 

[Hobobo]

The entire reason Marika is in this self-destructive spiral is because Sawa refuses to understand her and keeps dragging her into Sawa's romantic drama despite having been told explicitly that Marika is in love with her.

Did it not occur to you that the reason Sawa doesn't interpret Marika's feelings as romantic is because Sawa is in fact not a lesbian? And that Sawa is just assuming that like most other people Marika is also not a lesbian as Marika hasn't ever said otherwise? Sawa already admitted in this chapter that she thinks Marika sees her as a knight in shining armour because of what happened in the past, she doesnt see Marika's unhealthy dependence on her as anything to do with romantic attraction on the part of Marika.

In this chapter her reaction to Marika dating a guy -- a guy she had explicitly rejected before, mind you -- isn't "I wonder what's going on with her" but rather "Yay Marika finally has a boyfriend I should tell her to stop hanging out with me now "

I saw it as Sawa being happy that Marika finally (from her point of view at least) started to get close to someone else for once. Sawa even admitted that she'd be lonely after saying that Marika should be spending more time with her "boyfriend" (who again, from Sawa's point of view, is someone Marika is at least attracted to) over her, did you not even read the whole part that lead up to "Im happy Marika's found a boyfriend, but I feel a bit lonely too."

Anyway all this stems from Marika not being able to be actually upfront with Sawa (probably because she already knows what Sawa's response would be) and thus being a bitch and using someone who has strong feelings for her to try and fill a void. Marika cant expect anyone to read her mind so her self-destructive behaviour is her fault and ONLY her fault

 

[Cogito3]

But you have this weird-as-hell conceit that you feel more confident you're right when you're in the minority... Even though being in the minority on this fundamentally makes you wrong. You literally can't be in the minority on the snoozefest issue and be right. But you apparently don't realize that.

When I see the majority of people here hating on Marika only because she's extremely flawed -- the precise quality that makes her interesting -- then yeah, them disagreeing with me is only going to make me more confident. Artistic quality isn't decided by majority vote. Sawa is a very boring character. Oota is even more boring. These are the people most readers here want to "go back to." Hachiouji is at least a little interesting because he knows he's being taken advantage of but is going along with it anyway, but he's really only interesting because of how he relates to Marika anyway. It's irrelevant to me that other people disagree with my position, especially when it's because they blatantly misread the text like this person:

Did it not occur to you that the reason Sawa doesn't interpret Marika's feelings as romantic is because Sawa is in fact not a lesbian? And that Sawa is just assuming that like most other people Marika is also not a lesbian as Marika hasn't ever said otherwise? Sawa already admitted in this chapter that she thinks Marika sees her as a knight in shining armour because of what happened in the past, she doesnt see Marika's unhealthy dependence on her as anything to do with romantic attraction on the part of Marika.

Marika literally, unambiguously confessed to Sawa in chapters 7 and 8. If you're going to argue with me at least remember the basic events of the manga.

 

[Zinettes]

She’s actually such a trash friend omg

 

[comeonnow0]

When I see the majority of people here hating on Marika only because she's extremely flawed -- the precise quality that makes her interesting -- then yeah, them disagreeing with me is only going to make me more confident. Artistic quality isn't decided by majority vote. Sawa is a very boring character. Oota is even more boring. These are the people most readers here want to "go back to." Hachiouji is at least a little interesting because he knows he's being taken advantage of but is going along with it anyway, but he's really only interesting because of how he relates to Marika anyway. It's irrelevant to me that other people disagree with my position, especially when it's because they blatantly misread the text like this person:

Marika literally, unambiguously confessed to Sawa in chapters 7 and 8. If you're going to argue with me at least remember the basic events of the manga.

Artistic quality is closer to being defined by majority vote than it is to being defined by minority vote.

That's my issue. If all the world except one person suddenly said the Mona Lisa was a bad piece of art, and the one remainder said it was good, then yes, that does setup a really strong argument to decide the artistic quality. It's not the sole factor, but it is a strong reason.

And that's what I'm saying here. You are one of the few dissenters, and you say you are more confident in your dissent specifically because you are in the minority.

That's the problem.

 

[Cogito3]

And that's what I'm saying here. You are one of the few dissenters, and you say you are more confident in your dissent specifically because you are in the minority.

You misunderstood my point. I didn't say I'm more confident because I'm in "the minority" in general, I said I'm more confident because I'm in the minority among MD commenters. Comments sections here, especially for male-aimed romcoms and thrillers, are generally full of incels spouting misogyny and homophobia, and this manga's comments section is no different. (Like I said it's no accident that Marika's been getting so much hate so consistently even though every single character in this manga is heavily flawed.) So yeah, disagreeing with the people here makes me more confident that I'm right.

By contrast, the top comment on the reddit thread by far is "I am addicted to Marika and Hachiouji's toxic loveless relationship. Inject it into my veins." While I don't fully agree with this take either, I can at least understand it and find it reasonable, and it aligns with my view that Marika is by far the most interesting character in the manga.

Regardless though, artistic quality isn't defined by either majority or minority vote. Marika would be the most interesting character in the manga if everyone agreed with that stance or if nobody did.

 

[comeonnow0]

You misunderstood my point. I didn't say I'm more confident because I'm in "the minority" in general, I said I'm more confident because I'm in the minority among MD commenters. Comments sections here, especially for male-aimed romcoms and thrillers, are generally full of incels spouting misogyny and homophobia, and this manga's comments section is no different. (Like I said it's no accident that Marika's been getting so much hate so consistently even though every single character in this manga is heavily flawed.) So yeah, disagreeing with the people here makes me more confident that I'm right.

By contrast, the top comment on the reddit thread by far is "I am addicted to Marika and Hachiouji's toxic loveless relationship. Inject it into my veins." While I don't fully agree with this take either, I can at least understand it and find it reasonable, and it aligns with my view that Marika is by far the most interesting character in the manga.

Regardless though, artistic quality isn't defined by either majority or minority vote. Marika would be the most interesting character in the manga if everyone agreed with that stance or if nobody did.

First, I want to say I do appreciate you having this discussion with me in a generally sincere way. I wanted to just take a moment to say that.

Second, I find it kind of funny that you'd criticize MangaDex as being full of incels spouting misogyny and homophobia and then point to Reddit of all places. I mean, I really hope the irony is not lost on you with that.

And to be clear, I'm not defending MangaDex or Reddit.

I have seen comments on other sites, such as Mangakakalot, that generally go in favor of what I was saying, that people generally don't like Marika. I mean, look at the second highest comment, the one that says dude is too good for her.

And yes, you are right that artistic quality isn't defined by either majority or minority vote. But I stand by the example that I gave. If a lot of people lean towards one way on the artistic quality of a work, then there's generally a presumption in favor of the majority opinion.

The argument here is what the user Cogito3 on Reddit basically says. The author was generally fine with a "light" and "fluffy" and "mostly substance-less romcoms". And I think pretty much everyone here would agree with that, especially you with substance-less.

But then the author wrote about Marika. You find interest in Marika, while a lot of other people find her to be too negative. Yes, she adds difference and "interest" to the otherwise substance-less story. But that's negative and, for what I believe is the majority opinion, detracts too much from the story. The majority would rather have the substance-less story than a character as detracting as Marika.

 

[Cogito3]

First, I want to say I do appreciate you having this discussion with me in a generally sincere way. I wanted to just take a moment to say that.

Thank you, sincerely.

Second, I find it kind of funny that you'd criticize MangaDex as being full of incels spouting misogyny and homophobia and then point to Reddit of all places. I mean, I really hope the irony is not lost on you with that.

Oh, it certainly isn't lost, trust me. I think Reddit is a step up from here but it's still really bad. I'm just citing it as an alternative source of reader reactions.

you are right that artistic quality isn't defined by either majority or minority vote. But I stand by the example that I gave. If a lot of people lean towards one way on the artistic quality of a work, then there's generally a presumption in favor of the majority opinion.

I just fundamentally disagree. I think if a work, or a certain opinion on a work, is really popular, there's some reason behind it. But that reason could be anything. Some works are popular because they're genuinely doing something new and different, like Evangelion; others are popular because they appeal to the self-insert wish fulfillment of the lowest common denominator like Sword Art Online. You have to judge for yourself on a case by case basis.

To be clear, I don't care if you disagree with me that Marika is the only interesting character (even Hachiouji is only interesting inasmuch as he plays off of her). I just have zero respect for this "well you're in the minority on that one" response. That is completely irrelevant to whether or not I'm correct.

The argument here is what the user Cogito3 on Reddit basically says. The author was generally fine with a "light" and "fluffy" and "mostly substance-less romcoms". And I think pretty much everyone here would agree with that, especially you with substance-less.

But then the author wrote about Marika. You find interest in Marika, while a lot of other people find her to be too negative. Yes, she adds difference and "interest" to the otherwise substance-less story. But that's negative and, for what I believe is the majority opinion, detracts too much from the story. The majority would rather have the substance-less story than a character as detracting as Marika.

It's kinda ironic you cite that comment positively when Cogito3 is literally my Reddit account. I think Marika is by far the most interesting character; I also think the mangaka is really bad at writing her, which is why her arc is so annoying and -- accidentally, I'm sure, given the author's other work, but still -- embodies sexist and homophobic ideas about how lesbianism is "just a phase" until a girl finds "the right man."

It relates back to what I said, that a majority opinion is based on something, just not necessarily the truth. Marika is genuinely a badly written character and the current arc is painful to read through. Most readers correctly recognize that. But, partly due to sexism and homophobia, they blame it on Marika being a "bad person" who is too mean to the boys. In reality the problem lies with the mangaka attempting an extremely complicated and nuanced dramatic character arc when she is not remotely ready to write such material.

 

[comeonnow0]

Thank you, sincerely.

Oh, it certainly isn't lost, trust me. I think Reddit is a step up from here but it's still really bad. I'm just citing it as an alternative source of reader reactions.

I just fundamentally disagree. I think if a work, or a certain opinion on a work, is really popular, there's some reason behind it. But that reason could be anything. Some works are popular because they're genuinely doing something new and different, like Evangelion; others are popular because they appeal to the self-insert wish fulfillment of the lowest common denominator like Sword Art Online. You have to judge for yourself on a case by case basis.

To be clear, I don't care if you disagree with me that Marika is the only interesting character (even Hachiouji is only interesting inasmuch as he plays off of her). I just have zero respect for this "well you're in the minority on that one" response. That is completely irrelevant to whether or not I'm correct.


It's kinda ironic you cite that comment positively when Cogito3 is literally my Reddit account. I think Marika is by far the most interesting character; I also think the mangaka is really bad at writing her, which is why her arc is so annoying and -- accidentally, I'm sure, given the author's other work, but still -- embodies sexist and homophobic ideas about how lesbianism is "just a phase" until a girl finds "the right man."

It relates back to what I said, that a majority opinion is based on something, just not necessarily the truth. Marika is genuinely a badly written character and the current arc is painful to read through. Most readers correctly recognize that. But, partly due to sexism and homophobia, they blame it on Marika being a "bad person" who is too mean to the boys. In reality the problem lies with the mangaka attempting an extremely complicated and nuanced dramatic character arc when she is not remotely ready to write such material.

I mean, I took your/Cogito3's comment as a springboard and then elaborated on my differences. And that's because while we do seem to have an understanding of what each other is arguing, we still disagree.

Okay, art and artistic value. You know how it's difficult to define art? It's not difficult to talk about art, though. Art still has some qualities that can be easily described in general, even if you disagree on particular works. Art must attempt to communicate [a message]. Sometimes it attempts to communicate that using art to communicate is stupid. That's still an attempt at communication. In 1917, Duchamp submitted a urinal to an art exhibit. It caused a sensation and much debate about what constitutes art and blah, blah, beyond the scope of this. He still had a message, something along the lines of this exhibit and art in general is overly pretentious, so I'll submit something normally not considered art to undermine that. He still had a message. The same urinal in a public toilet doesn't try to send much of a message. It's primarily utilitarian in purpose. That's not generally considered art.

Nature can have beauty. Waterfalls, sunsets, etc. It is weird to say nature makes art because then you have to ascribe a will, a consciousness to nature.

All that to say art must have some kind of communication, even if that communication is self-undermining. BAD art, then, either communicates a bad message or communicates badly.

A portrait of a person that looks nothing like the real person. Bad art. The message is clear. Portrait. Person. Done. The communication of that is bad. Bad portrait. Chin too wide. Eyebrows too thick. Blah, blah, etc. This is already long.

With all that said, art is FUNDAMENTALLY, an intersubjective thing. Art is meant to communicate TO someone, to a viewer/listener/experiencer. You can't communicate to no one. You can communicate to yourself, but that's a separate thing. The opinions of others fundamentally do matter.

Artistic value necessarily involves interpretation from others. And yeah, you can disagree on the interpretation. For example, someone might think Marika is too much of a negative factor in this work. You disagree. But then that means majority opinion does have weight. It might not be the deciding factor, but it carries actual, meaningful weight.

---

As an aside, Sword Art Online became a trope codifier for that genre. It wasn't the first to use any individual trope or tool, definitely not. But I, personally, do think there is artistic value in how it put things together, and the popularity around it shows some of that.

I completely agree with you on the self-insert, wish-fulfillment part. I am legitimately surprised there is another person who uses that particular phrasing because it's not super common.

---

TL;DR Marika sux, OTP Hachijou x Sawa.

I'm joking there, to be clear.

 

[Cogito3]

Artistic value necessarily involves interpretation from others. And yeah, you can disagree on the interpretation. For example, someone might think Marika is too much of a negative factor in this work. You disagree. But then that means majority opinion does have weight. It might not be the deciding factor, but it carries actual, meaningful weight.

Your conclusion here doesn't follow from the premise. I fully agree that art is inter-subjective and requires interpretation. But why does it then follow that the majority opinion has more weight? That's not true for any other area, whether it be science, politics, or morality. Perhaps if you know nothing about an artistic work, you might just go along with the majority opinion because you don't have the information to make your own judgment. But that's not the situation we're in. We've both read Oshibana, we can draw our own conclusions about it.

As an aside, Sword Art Online became a trope codifier for that genre. It wasn't the first to use any individual trope or tool, definitely not. But I, personally, do think there is artistic value in how it put things together, and the popularity around it shows some of that.

I completely agree with you on the self-insert, wish-fulfillment part. I am legitimately surprised there is another person who uses that particular phrasing because it's not super common.

Like I said, there's always some reason something becomes popular. Sword Art Online does have some things going for it. It's still a terrible anime overall, regardless of its popularity. (Also I'm surprised you think "self-insert wish fulfillment" isn't a common phrase, I've heard it a lot myself.)

TL;DR Marika sux, OTP Hachijou x Sawa.

I'm joking there, to be clear.

Honestly I would be all for Hachijou x Sawa, let Marika have a different (female) love interest and chuck Oota into the background like he deserves lol.

 

[comeonnow0]

Your conclusion here doesn't follow from the premise. I fully agree that art is inter-subjective and requires interpretation. But why does it then follow that the majority opinion has more weight? That's not true for any other area, whether it be science, politics, or morality. Perhaps if you know nothing about an artistic work, you might just go along with the majority opinion because you don't have the information to make your own judgment. But that's not the situation we're in. We've both read Oshibana, we can draw our own conclusions about it.

Like I said, there's always some reason something becomes popular. Sword Art Online does have some things going for it. It's still a terrible anime overall, regardless of its popularity. (Also I'm surprised you think "self-insert wish fulfillment" isn't a common phrase, I've heard it a lot myself.)

Honestly I would be all for Hachijou x Sawa, let Marika have a different (female) love interest and chuck Oota into the background like he deserves lol.

I actually like Oota. He's a character I actually find interesting because of his initial desire to be in the background. He wanted to just be a fan and keep a distance, but he also recognizes the need to act sometimes. That's not an overly done premise.

I was cutting out a lot of stuff when I wrote that because it was getting long.

Politics, I would argue you are straight wrong. If something is the majority opinion in politics, that, in and of itself, is given immense weight in a lot of cases. There are, in fact, whole political systems built on that. Look at Brexit. The split was about 52% to 48%, leave remain. The government based their whole decision on that popular opinion, for better or worse. I'm not getting into the desirability of Brexit here. I'm just pointing out the pure numbers.

Morality, as much as moral philosophers try to justify their positions otherwise, popular opinion carries immense weight. The phrase "cruel and unusual punishment" is a classic example that is basically defined in terms of popular opinion to a large extent. I know that's not strictly morality, but it's close. Child labor as a moral issue has been defined by popular opinion.

Science, not intersubjective (at least, it tries not to be). Science attempts to have an objective frame of reference, which is also why experiments that show subjectivity or intersubjectivity in science are "shocking".

Back to art. Maybe it's the popular opinion because it appeals to a commonality. Call it negatively and say it's the lowest common denominator. Be positive and say it's uncovering a deep connection we share.

Anyways, I return to my example of the Mona Lisa. It's considered good art, has artistic value. That's true even though most people who know of the Mona Lisa don't have a clue as to why it is considered good art. It's the reputation. The popular opinion.

For the Mona Lisa, there's only one alternative to deciding if it's good art. If you don't use popular opinion, what can you use? The opinions of a much smaller group of art critics? And I don't mean it has to be professional art critics with specific degrees. Just some smaller sunset of the general population based on some kind of qualification. But even then, they are still influenced by reputation. It's natural and inevitable. They are influenced by popular opinion too.

And I don't think that's bad. When art is trying to communicate (which I already said it must do), it is communicating to an [target] audience. If it communicates badly and doesn't appeal to its audience, then it might be bad art. Even more so for an explicitly commercial work, trying to appeal to readers to continue to read. If the readers don't like it, then it's not doing a good job.

I rambled a bit and went off on tangents. I'll end there.

 

[Cogito3]

I'll be honest, I have no desire to get into an argument with you about the nature of normativity in the mangadex comments section. What I will say is, if I say "I think this character is interesting/boring for these reasons" and you say "okay but that's a minority opinion," you haven't added to the conversation in any way whatsoever. If you disagree with my take, fine, but give actual reasons for that disagreement, don't just appeal to the majority opinion, because as soon as you do that the conversation just ends.

So I'll focus on the part of your post where you actually do some textual analysis:

I actually like Oota. He's a character I actually find interesting because of his initial desire to be in the background. He wanted to just be a fan and keep a distance, but he also recognizes the need to act sometimes. That's not an overly done premise.

That's a fine starting point. The problem is he hasn't gone anywhere past that for the entire manga. As a result he's basically a generic, personality-less audience self-insert aside from being a fanboy of Sawa and having this really weird attitude where he treats his fucking classmate as an "untouchable idol." Sawa isn't much better but at least she has something with her kinda complicated feelings regarding her popularity among the girls and consequent resentment by (most of) the boys.

 

[comeonnow0]

I'll be honest, I have no desire to get into an argument with you about the nature of normativity in the mangadex comments section. What I will say is, if I say "I think this character is interesting/boring for these reasons" and you say "okay but that's a minority opinion," you haven't added to the conversation in any way whatsoever. If you disagree with my take, fine, but give actual reasons for that disagreement, don't just appeal to the majority opinion, because as soon as you do that the conversation just ends.

So I'll focus on the part of your post where you actually do some textual analysis:

That's a fine starting point. The problem is he hasn't gone anywhere past that for the entire manga. As a result he's basically a generic, personality-less audience self-insert aside from being a fanboy of Sawa and having this really weird attitude where he treats his fucking classmate as an "untouchable idol." Sawa isn't much better but at least she has something with her kinda complicated feelings regarding her popularity among the girls and consequent resentment by (most of) the boys.

This is a crap post from you. Me, gives tons of reasons why majority opinion does matter.

You, majority opinion doesn't matter, so I won't respond to that.

Also, it shows you had completely ignored the reasons I gave a while ago for my dislike of Marika. She is negative. She is self-destructive. You yourself even admitted you don't like this arc. I've literally, in text, said that negativeness detracts from any interest the character brings and makes it an overall negative reading experience. Your response?... Nothing on that.

I'm out, then. At a certain point, you are just jumping through hoops. You've admitted that you don't like this arc because of Marika and her negative actions. Yet you still try to appeal to some inane concept of artistic quality to say Maria's character is overall good for this story.

 

[Cogito3]

This is a crap post from you. Me, gives tons of reasons why majority opinion does matter.

You, majority opinion doesn't matter, so I won't respond to that.

Also, it shows you had completely ignored the reasons I gave a while ago for my dislike of Marika. She is negative. She is self-destructive. You yourself even admitted you don't like this arc. I've literally, in text, said that negativeness detracts from any interest the character brings and makes it an overall negative reading experience. Your response?... Nothing on that.

I'm out, then. At a certain point, you are just jumping through hoops. You've admitted that you don't like this arc because of Marika and her negative actions. Yet you still try to appeal to some inane concept of artistic quality to say Maria's character is overall good for this story.

You're the one who took an offhanded comment from me to spout a bunch of poorly-thought-through philosophical speculations that had nothing to do with my actual point that majority opinion does not equal artistic quality.

I already responded to a similar point earlier, when I said that every single character in this manga is heavily flawed but people single out Marika for hate for mysterious reasons (sexism and homophobia).

My position is pretty straightforward. Marika is by far the most interesting character in the manga. The author is not good at writing interesting characters so her arc has tons of issues. But none of those issues have anything to do with her being "negative" or "self-destructive." Those qualities are precisely what make her interesting! The problem isn't with the character concept, it's with the author's total failure to execute.

And that's the last thing I'll say to you, as you can tell because I got so bored of this argument I didn't look at it for a couple days.