Proposal for appending site rule 3.2.7

[Tds-PdV]

I would like to propose an addition to the site rules regarding the extraneous page and messages scanlators can add in the chapter.

Description of Issue:
Firstly, I understand that credits page is important and the scanlators are fully entitled to attribute their names, solicit services/donations, recruit members, advertise their services, write jokes/opinions, etc. This is something I support and in my opinion overall give a better vibe to the released chapter.

However, since to my understanding Mangadex (and affiliates) host the images, certain wordings, such as ones that makes explicit promises in exchange of money/service in the extraneous/credits page could be a possible seedbed of future issues.

For example, sentences such as:
“For $n our group will do the next y chapters.”
Or
“If you provide $n, we will work on your series of choosing.”
Or
“If you download our app and do XYZ, we will work on the next chapter.”

sounds like an offer for a transaction, yet most will be impossible to be accounted for in/by MD. Further, if unfulfilled these can be considered a scam or fraud.

The problem is compounded when the group dissolves or user that posted the chapter disappears, yet the credit page with the sentence and information on where to send the money / do XYZ is still here on MD.

While most readers will simply ignore them, a small percentage of readers may not and considering the number of possible readers for the entire time the chapter is available, the number of affected people may be significant. Having a number of people being conned and/or possibly lost money due to a chapter/images hosted on MD could cause big problems. At the minimum this may hurt site reputation and community trust, despite MD not being responsible for the content of the uploaded chapter and is only hosting it. Overall, this is an unnecessary liability and risk for MD.


Proposal:
Hence I would like to propose a prohibition on transactional wording/offers by scanlators and uploaders on the extraneous content on any part of chapters uploaded in MD, such as on the extraneous page.

That is: no messages with explicit promises of chapter releases or series translations (or anything) in exchange of an amount money or actions by the reader (or anyone else) should be allowed.

If anyone would like to make transactional offers, they should and can do so in their own site or at least outside of the uploaded chapter, and they can advertise this possibility on their credits page instead. For instance, something along the line of “visit here to help us release more chapters”, “donate to help us release faster”, “support us in patreon”, or “commission us for a chapter”, etc. is fine.
That way anyone interested in doing so will have the opportunity to see the latest state of the group that made the offer instead of being hooked by an old image.

Of course, the exact wording and details are to be adjusted accordingly if this end up being implemented.

I also understand that some chapters and/or credits page that may fall under this is already on the site for years, for that I leave them to mod discretion.

—————

To clarify: this proposed addendum will not affect messages asking for donations or money in general, or advertising chapters to be commissioned. Only when the message is asking for money/action with explicit promise of chapters (or something else), which could turn the process into an exchange/transaction, which needs to be accounted for then the message on the chapter should be prohibited.

—————


Closing:
Myself, like many others would just like a place to read and perhaps discuss the chapter. While I have not seen many examples of cases I mentioned, it is clear that these things (as is with most things explicitly concerning monetary transaction) could be a possible source of problems in the future especially if it ever become widespread (it may already is elsewhere). I believe it would be of benefit to nip this to prevent any future issues.


Thank you for reading and I appreciate the consideration.

 

[Tds-PdV]

I just realized I wrote a huge wall of text, so:

Tl;dr:
I want to request an addendum to the rule to prohibit transactional messages/offers on uploaded chapters.

Why?
Because these things cannot be accounted for in MD and is an unnecessary risk for the site, especially as the image will be hosted here for years, but the uploader can disappear in days.

Unlikely as it is, I would hate to have the site show up in some news because there are a bunch of gullible people scammed by an image/chapter hosted here years ago. Or, have these stuff to be a vector to say scanlation is full of scammers or something along that line.

 

[RogueKitsune]

So where do you draw the line?

If you give us X amount we will release the next Y chapters

that sounds kind of shady

If we can raise x amount we will be able to buy raws for the next Y chapters

well that sounds "reasonable"

Donate so we can continue to bring you this series

Sure i guess thats fine

The problem is that they all effectively mean "give us money and we will give you chapters", and none of them are a guarantee that your money will yield anything more than your wallet getting lighter.

Download this app to read the next chapter

Go to our site to get access to new chapters

Subscribe to our Patreon to get early access to releases

Once again where is the line drawn?

I get why you want this and I know exactly the groups/individuals you are talking about, but ultimately I believe this is one of those times where people need to be responsible for their own actions.

 

[Tds-PdV]

So where do you draw the line?


that sounds kind of shady

well that sounds "reasonable"

Sure i guess thats fine

The problem is that they all effectively mean "give us money and we will give you chapters", and none of them are a guarantee that your money will yield anything more than your wallet getting lighter.




Once again where is the line drawn?

I get why you want this and I know exactly the groups/individuals you are talking about, but ultimately I believe this is one of those times where people need to be responsible for their own actions.

That’s kind of the point of my post, to bring this into discussion.

Personally, my line is when there is an explicit promise of a chapter given the money.

Saying “If we can raise X money we will be able to buy raws for the next Y chapters.” doesn’t give a guarantee that those chapters will ever come out. This isn’t a problem.

Saying “Give us X money we will release Y chapters.” That’s asking for an transaction, just like making a sale, if this happens in person and unfulfilled in most countries people would get in trouble for this.

As you stated there are many ways to say the same thing and I’m fine with most of them. My concern is that certain ways of saying this could end up as a fraud if the promising party failed to fulfill their end of bargain.

I understand that it’s the internet, you’re responsible for yourself. But if a gullible (and petty) person decided to throw a tantrum over it, that may bring undesired attention, or hell, a lawsuit. While MD isn’t responsible for the content, MD hosts the image and I’m guessing these kind of issue would still be a pain to deal with.

Overall, from risk management standpoint, I feel that this is an unnecessary risk that can be eliminated by having it as a rule and asking the uploader to change the sentence in their chapter / credit page.
A change in wording shouldn’t hamper the uploader from asking for money either and give extra protection to everyone involved.

That said, ideally whether this is implemented or not should come from a proper discussion and perhaps a vote by the most invested parties, especially where the line should be drawn and what wording should be used. Or, if such addendum even deemed unnecessary, which is fine too.

As only an individual with a concern I can only make the proposal and offer my opinion. I can’t say that my PoV and where I’ve drawn the line to be absolutely just.

 

[kuma]

it's already hard to upheld the rule as it is. soo many scamlator group already break it on daily basis. i don't think adding more rules would help. i agree with rougue kitsune here. i think the one need more aware to not support such group is the readers. this is how manhwa/manhua scanlation is such a shitshow and lot of their group isn't even posting their stuff on mangadex.

 

[RogueKitsune]

Overall, from risk management standpoint, I feel that this is an unnecessary risk that can be eliminated by having it as a rule and asking the uploader to change the sentence in their chapter / credit page.

I think you way over estimate any risk a scam is going to bring to the site versus the whole concept of the site. Mangadex is not on the "right" side of the law and trust me when I say that all the relevant parties are aware of this site's existence.

Also how does changing the wording of asking for money actually fix anything, if it's still just a scam?

Give me some money so I can buy cigarettes

vs

Please spare some change so I can buy some food (jk this is actually a scam and I just need money for cigs)

What problem has been solved?

 

[Tds-PdV]

it's already hard to upheld the rule as it is. soo many scamlator group already break it on daily basis. i don't think adding more rules would help. i agree with rougue kitsune here. i think the one need more aware to not support such group is the readers. this is how manhwa/manhua scanlation is such a shitshow and lot of their group isn't even posting their stuff on mangadex.

In such case, in my opinion, the rule doesn’t need to be actively enforced. Only when there’s a report then it can be used, even then it can be used on a case-by-case basis. The wording itself should also be determined by those who are most familiar with dealing with such situation (e.g., not someone like me).
The point in such case is to have a tool in the box when necessary, and as a way to mitigate potential liabilities.

 

[OisE]

it's already hard to upheld the rule as it is. soo many scamlator group already break it on daily basis

I think by reporting them, it's possible to send them a warning so thay stop advertising.

I feel really bad when I see people complaining because they send some groups money and they didn't get the chapters they commisionned...

more aware to not support such group is the readers

So maybe instead to put a new rule if you don't see the possible usefulness of the new rule. It would be cool to do some prevention on the website :

1. To differentitate MD and the scanlation group
2. To warn them that giving money doesn't necessarly speed up or make sca-group upload chapters.

Also how does changing the wording of asking for money actually fix anything, if it's still just a scam?

Maybe, we can ban every sentences asking for money and promising release in exchange, because it looks like a trade.
Instead, letting people choose if they want to support the group. "If you like my work consider donating." Like a sub on Twitch or on Youtube.

 

[Tds-PdV]

I think you way over estimate any risk a scam is going to bring to the site versus the whole concept of the site. Mangadex is not on the "right" side of the law and trust me when I say that all the relevant parties are aware of this site's existence.

Also how does changing the wording of asking for money actually fix anything, if it's still just a scam?


vs


What problem has been solved?

Of course, everything is grey at best here. However, I would like to prevent it being a seedbed for things that are clearly black.

My point is to not stop any scams, but to make it such that is someone want to make a scam, the scam transaction details are somewhere else, and just as importantly these details are not here years after the scammers are gone.

The two sentences you wrote as an example do not fall under what I consider transactional messages because they do not guarantee or clearly state that whoever gives them money get anything back.

If it says:

Please spare me $X for food, I will clean your house in exchange.

And the money recipient doesn’t clean the house, that’s fraud. There’s a promise for return in exchange for the money.

However:

Please spare me $X for food, I haven’t eaten for days (and actually buy alcohol).

This isn’t a problem, yes it’s deception, but the guy doesn’t promise to give anything back in exchange of receiving the money (it’s not a transaction).

 

[kuma]

I think by reporting them, it's possible to send them a warning so thay stop advertising.

I feel really bad when I see people complaining because they send some groups money and they didn't get the chapters they commisionned...

So maybe instead to put a new rule if you don't see the possible usefulness of the new rule. It would be cool to do some prevention on the website :

1. To differentitate MD and the scanlation group
2. To warn them that giving money doesn't necessarly speed up or make sca-group upload chapters.

Maybe, we can ban every sentences asking for money and promising release in exchange, because it looks like a trade.
Instead, letting people choose if they want to support the group. "If you like my work consider donating." Like a sub on Twitch or on Youtube.

the issue is how vague this new rule would be and would imply MD held responsible for group action. it's has been common agreement since MD start that MD wouldn't be scanlation police. they just minimize the rule "we have minimum standard for content posted here", hence the rule soo far pretty clear cut.

 

[OisE]

the issue is how vague this new rule would be and would imply MD held responsible for group action. it's has been common agreement since MD start that MD wouldn't be scanlation police. they just minimize the rule "we have minimum standard for content posted here", hence the rule soo far pretty clear cut.

Yeah but I think if we say : "MD is against scamming scanlation groups" it won't pose a problem, imo.

 

[kuma]

Yeah but I think if we say : "MD is against scamming scanlation groups" it won't pose a problem, imo.

always was. but the problem is we can't put those without sounding vague in rules, even harder to uphold them. posting half chapter or intrusive watermark/credit page has visual value and easier to police.

 

[Tds-PdV]

the issue is how vague this new rule would be and would imply MD held responsible for group action. it's has been common agreement since MD start that MD wouldn't be scanlation police. they just minimize the rule "we have minimum standard for content posted here", hence the rule soo far pretty clear cut.

Yeah but I think if we say : "MD is against scamming scanlation groups" it won't pose a problem, imo.

Under rule 3.2.7 staff already has the discretion to remove content deemed offensive. So this would be just an extension of that, there’s no significant or overarching change.

For instance adding a rule that says:

Content that can be understood as transactional in nature involving explicit offering of a release in exchange of money or action are not allowed on the platform.

will not be outlandish in any forum, unless the forum is about trading and buying/selling.

The caveat that one may instead advertise their own site where they want to do this, may or may not be added explicitly in the rule.

Also, the fact that the image is on and hosted by MD should not be underestimated in terms of perception, regardless if someone is ignorant to all the rules.



As an aside, if someone tried to pull stuff that we discussed, or start selling stuff on the forum or on discord, I would imagine it wouldn’t be very welcome either. However, it’s not codified in the rules yet and this would be an opportunity to preempt this kind of behavior.

 

[Tds-PdV]

always was. but the problem is we can't put those without sounding vague in rules, even harder to uphold them. posting half chapter or intrusive watermark/credit page has visual value and easier to police.

IMO, it can also be as simple as adding a rule under rule 3 in the forum regarding content in MD as well, for example:

Do not make an explicit offer publicly for a chapter release in exchange of money or action in MangaDex.

I believe that’s quite straightforward and applies to the whole site.

 

[kuma]

Under rule 3.2.7 staff already has the discretion to remove content deemed offensive. So this would be just an extension of that, there’s no significant or overarching change.

this rule as far as i know only ever applied ONCE and it was for credit page glorifying Christchurch shooting.

 

[Tds-PdV]

this rule as far as i know only ever applied ONCE and it was for credit page glorifying Christchurch shooting.

Let me start by saying I also don’t want some active censorship either. However, content that harms the platform should not be in the platform, such is the case you mentioned hence it was removed.

Though not to the same degree, messages that may lead people to getting conned on the site is also harmful to the platform.
It’s milder, so the ideal resolution is for the staff to advise the uploader to change their wording.

That way, if an uploader is a scammer, it prevents them running their scam on MD, their only message here is to visit their site. If people get scammed there, it has nothing (or at least less) to do with MD.
This dissociation is the goal as it could lead to:
1. People having more time and opportunities to be skeptical.
2. (Ignorant) people not associating the scam with MD.
3. Preventing dead scam from years ago still scamming people.
4. Preventing any (additional) unnecessary attention to MD.

Such rule would also prevent any acts of getting some users publicly through MD to do certain unwanted things, such as posting things (virus, ads, etc.) on the forum/discord or elsewhere in exchange of a chapter release.

 

[MrMichael]

To me it sounds like instead of policing the uploaders it'd be easier to just periodically throw a message / notification thing to a user whenever they click an off-site link or every week or if they pause 20 seconds on the last page of a chapter or something that just tells them whatever the lawyerspeak version of "We are not a vendor or a platform of vendors and can not enforce any transaction or contract a user makes with any of the groups posting here, if you want to buy services from them either write up a proper contract or risk getting scammed"