Saike Mata Shite mo - Vol. 11 Ch. 100 - Raison D'etre

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist uh, so you're saying that hitting the chain is actually hard? so it actually makes sense for hizu to fails to grasp the chain, with or without the second ball?
what behavior would be absurd again?

so, did he or did he not touch the chain?

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

uh, so you're saying that hitting the chain is actually hard?

Not especially so, unless one attempts to do so in an absurd way.

so it actually makes sense for hizu to fails to grasp the chain, with or without the second ball?

Not unless he made his attempt in an absurd way.

what behavior would be absurd again?

Cocking his arm or having it cocked as the chain were flying past, as you basically proposed that he were doing. It would be one thing if his arm were already raised but in motion, another to raise it as the chain were flying past. I didn't deny the possibility that the mangaka envisioned just such behavior, but noted that doing so still amounts to a poor construction of events.

Please spare me any future “uh”, and instead put a little more thought into things.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist idk man, just see this page and tell me it's anything but that

Spoiler

dunno whether it's absurd to do it like that, i ain't a master of fighting against someone using ball-and-chain, but it's just what happens, so it happens?

how's that a poor construction of events? hizu not allowed to be bad at fighting anyone at anything?

and the "uh" is intentional btw. thanks for the higher ground.

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

It doesn't take a peculiar mastery of fighting against someone with a ball-on-a-chain to know that you don't start your a swing at a fast-moving target when it is right in front of you. Hizu couldn't possibly have done some of what he's done at other points in the story if he didn't know this; he's not a physically awkward guy. And the motion of his arm wouldn't have been arrested by a blow to the head.

the "uh" is intentional

That intent was obvious and certainly not in question. Again, spare me such things and just think a bit more carefully.

thanks for the higher ground.

You don't have it. What you have is a snarky attitude adopted when you weren't bothering to consider what I'd already said. Sadly, you'll probably just keep at it. Once more:

You don't start your a swing at a fast-moving target when it is right in front of you. Hizu's arm had to be in motion toward the chain when he was struck.​

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist oh, i thought we're talking about how hizu did or did not touch the chain.

and seriously man, look at what really happens for once, look at what's actually depicted on the page.
look at this.

Spoiler

and this.

Spoiler

hizu still starting a swing when the second ball hit him.
human ain't a fighting machine that always perform efficiently. it's a fight, unpredictable shit happens. maybe hizu just happens to have his arm in the air right before, that's why he decided to start the swing. maybe it ain't the best way to do.
but fact is, that's just the kind of posture hizu's in when he got hit. that's just what happens.
when he got hit, his swinging arm is still behind him, which means it hardly got any momentum going.
and when you got hit, the body natural response is to stiffen your body. which also stop track any power he gonna put to that hand for swinging it.
makes perfect sense to me.
how using another ball-and-chain is somehow a perfect counter for someone trying to grab your chain on the other hand...

oh, and thanks for slowly getting irritated. that's even higher ground for me.

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

oh, i thought we're talking about how hizu did or did not touch the chain.

No, we've been discussing whether it makes sense that he would not have touched the chain, and we've been discussing that within the larger context of a discussion over whether there is any way for the chapter to be taken as well constructed.

look at what really happens for once, look at what's actually depicted on the page

I've already done that; and I've already explained why it wouldn't make sense for him not to have touched the chain. If you somehow found some panels that explicitly showed that he didn't touch the chain, that wouldn't show that it made sense for him to not have touched the chain.

human ain't a fighting machine that always perform efficiently.

No one's arguing for perfect efficiency; you argued for absurd behavior that doesn't match the character.

when you got hit, the body natural response is to stiffen your body

You seem to be confusing nature with animated cartoons. Getting hit in the back of the head should have cause Hizu to pitch forward, toward the chain at which he'd been aiming.

how using another ball-and-chain is somehow a perfect counter for someone trying to grab your chain on the other hand...

That string of words can't be parsed.

oh, and thanks for slowly getting irritated. that's even higher ground for me.

You either have a strange and twisted sense of morality, or you don't know what “higher ground” means.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist oh, so that's what we're talking about
you keep changing the topic from hizu's power somehow unable to break the chain to arm swinging, it's kinda confusing

sure then, i can half-agree with you that it doesn't really make sense that hizu can't even touch the chain in the battle even once
even though it must've taken some time to retract the ball after it missed him, heck, even a hit should've given him some time to grab the chain
it doesn't even make sense that calim's "perfect counter" to prevent hizu from grabbing his chain is just adding more chain to grab

but like, most of it can be explained with a simple "calim is just more skilled in fighting than hizu"
which is pretty dull explanation, but whatever

also

Getting hit in the back of the head should have cause Hizu to pitch forward, toward the chain at which he'd been aiming.

except hizu ain't exactly looking straight forward when he get hit
his head leaning a bit to the left, which is why he falls slightly to the left as shown in the panel where calim retract his chain, thus slightly missing the chain
also, seeing that he's facing forward in the previous page where he readies the swing, but turned left after getting hit, you can deduce that he ain't got hit exactly on the back of his head, probably more from the 4/5 o'clock direction

You either have a strange and twisted sense of morality, or you don't know what “higher ground” means.

keep going mah dude, let the web of lies entangles your blissful ignorance

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

you keep changing the topic from hizu's power somehow unable to break the chain to arm swinging

No, I don't keep changing the topic, which is of Hizu not exercising a power that he should have exercised. Someone else argued that Hizu hadn't touched the chain in the first place, which was a change of focus, not of topic, and not a change initiated by me.

it's kinda confusing

You were just sloppy.

most of it can be explained with a simple "calim is just more skilled in fighting than hizu"

I don't know what you regard as “most of it”, but not enough of the sequence of events is explained in that way, and almost none of what I've been arguing is addressed by that theory.

hizu ain't exactly looking straight forward when he get hit

He didn't need to be for his path still to intersect with that of the chain for which he'd been aiming.

let the web of lies entangles your blissful ignorance

Now you're just throwing-out gibberish.

You need to get generally better at the English language before you use its slang and idioms; they're harder to master than the textbook stuff, and you haven't got a good handle on that.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist

the topic, which is of Hizu not exercising a power that he should have exercised. Someone else argued that Hizu hadn't touched the chain in the first place, which was a change of focus, not of topic, and not a change initiated by me.

ikr, it's about hizu oracle at first and now you changed it to how it doesn't make sense for the battle to make sense
you focused too much on finding fault, eh

I don't know what you regard as “most of it”, but not enough of the sequence of events is explained in that way, and almost none of what I've been arguing is addressed by that theory

what are you arguing now, exactly?
head-hit shouldn't stop hizu swing? swing doesn't have momentum yet when he get hit
hizu shouldn't swing in the first place? it's a fight, just happen to throw a swing since it's convenient at the moment instead of thrust or something. if it helps, previous panel also got his hand in the air, defending.
hizu doesn't conveniently fall to the chain and touch it? the hit direction is calculated as you can see that hizu falls almost parallel to the chain
hizu should've been able to grab the chain at least once during his battle? it's possible for calim to be just that more skilled that hizu, he's also an oracle hunter after all

all already addressed before
no rule change or the like, hizu just don't get a chance to use his oracle

He didn't need to be for his path still to intersect with that of the chain for which he'd been aiming.

look again, he falls almost paralel to the chain he's aiming for
or if you don't like that, you can also say that calim got enough time to move the chain out of the way with the lag created from getting a headshot

You need to get generally better at the English language before you use its slang and idioms; they're harder to master than the textbook stuff, and you haven't got a good handle on that.

eyy gotcha again mate
imma tell ya that me proud americano no liek ya
speak american ezpz

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

ikr, it's about hizu oracle at first and now you changed it to how it doesn't make sense for the battle to make sense you focused too much on finding fault, eh

Nope. It started with my saying that Hizu should have used his power but did not; then someone else argued that he tried to us his power but was stopped. That change in focus doesn't change the underrlying topic, and in any case the change wasn't mine. You just screwed-up, and now that you've found yourself conceding some of the point that I've been making, you grasp for a way to blame me.

what are you arguing now, exactly?

I keep arguing the same thing: It doesn't make sense that Hizu took such a beating when he could have used his power. It wouldn't make sense if he'd touched the chain and didn't use his power; it wouldn't make sense if he use his power because didn't touch the chain, insofar as he still should have touched the chain; it didn't make sense that he didn't use his power earlier.

all already addressed before

Addressed in ways that do no make sense. And, when I've address what specifically has been wrong with your arguments, I've not been changing topics; I've just be going down the path that you've taken us.

he falls almost paralel to the chain he's aiming for

I've already responded to this argument. When I say that something in a story wouldn't make sense, pointing to evident that it happened in the story doesn't then mean that it made sense. Earlier, you said that he'd been hit at perhaps a 45° angle; a parallel fall then wouldn't make sense.

If someone tells you that the story of Santa Claus doesn't make sense, you don't show him an illustration in a children's book to prove that it does. When I tell you that this chapter doesn't make sense, don't show me the panels as if they prove that it does.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist

Nope. It started with my saying that Hizu should have used his power but did not; then someone else argued that he tried to us his power but was stopped. That change in focus doesn't change the underrlying topic, and in any case the change wasn't mine. You just screwed-up, and now that you've found yourself conceding some of the point that I've been making, you grasp for a way to blame me.

see? you just keep coming back to talking as if hizu already touched the chain to which your only argument is that it doesn't make sense to you otherwise
and which point exactly i'm conceding? hizu no touchy the chainy still stands

It doesn't make sense that Hizu took such a beating when he could have used his power. It wouldn't make sense if he'd touched the chain and didn't use his power; it wouldn't make sense if he use his power because didn't touch the chain, insofar as he still should have touched the chain; it didn't make sense that he didn't use his power earlier.

see, all your argument just assumes that hizu touched the chain
your only argument as to why hizu should've touched the chain is that it doesn't make sense otherwise
to which i can only say that sorry the author doesn't make hizu such a gary stu you have in your mind i guess
no, no, it just doesn't make sense to have calim, no, anyone, more skillful than hizu
it just doesn't make sense for hizu to do anything that ain't perfect in the middle of a fight
it just doesn't make sense that hizu can't immediately found and apply the solution to any problem he faced

hizu's a human that can screws up, and calim is just better than him
it makes sense that hizu fails to touch the chain during the fight if you based in on that

Earlier, you said that he'd been hit at perhaps a 45° angle; a parallel fall then wouldn't make sense.

have you actually see the page? look at this, again

Spoiler

the chain he's aiming for isn't going perfectly perpendicular to him, but rather more to the 10-11 o'clock direction from him
that's why when he falls slightly to the left, he then falls parallel to the chain he's aiming for

If someone tells you that the story of Santa Claus doesn't make sense, you don't show him an illustration in a children's book to prove that it does. When I tell you that this chapter doesn't make sense, don't show me the panels as if they prove that it does.

Oh, but when someone tells you that it doesn't make sense for santa claus to be able to fit into the chimney in the story, you do show him the illustration in the story where he does fit in the chimney
that panel is just one instance to which you say doesn't make sense for him to not touch the chain anyway, the other unseen instance can all be explained with a simple calim >> hizu

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

see? you just keep coming back to talking as if hizu already touched the chain to which your only argument is that it doesn't make sense to you otherwise

No. I keep saying that, one way or another, it doesn't make sense that Hizu didn't use his power. When I talk about one way and then about another, you alternately claim that I'm changing topics or that I'm insisting that the mangaka had one intention and not the other; I'm just covering all the bases. And I don't simply say that it doesn't make sense to me, I explain why it doesn't make sense objectively.

and which point exactly i'm conceding? hizu no touchy the chainy still stands

Go back and read your earlier message when you began “half-agreeing” with me.

see, all your argument just assumes that hizu touched the chain

No. When someone says that something doesn't make sense one way or another; that's not the same thing as committing to the one way or committing to the other.

your only argument as to why hizu should've touched the chain is that it doesn't make sense otherwise

Nope; you're confusing two ideas in your use of the word “should”. I'm not claiming that Hizu made a strategic or tactical error in not touching the chain even if he couldn't. I'm claiming that the mangaka made an error if he wrote and drew this chapter as it is with the idea that Hizu could not touch the chain.

have you actually see the page?

I've seen it and the previous page. The page to which you now point shows him after he was struck; the previous page shows his orientation before he was struck. If he was hit at the 45° angle that you claimed, then his arm shouldn't still have struck the chain. If someone wants to argue that the relevant panels just depict events poorly, then my response will be, okay, then the reason that those panels don't jointly make sense is because they were poorly drawn. (And I'll then return to the point that Hizu had earlier opportunities to use his power.)

when someone tells you that it doesn't make sense for santa claus to be able to fit into the chimney in the story, you do show him the illustration in the story where he does fit in the chimney

No, I don't, because the question isn't whether the story of Santa Claus has him going down a chimney; it's whether the story makes sense in having him go down the chimney (&c). People can write or draw stories that don't make sense, so showing a drawing of something doesn't establish that it somehow makes sense.

If you truly could not understand the difference between a story merely having specific features and their making sense, then you'd be completely unable to distinguish stories that must be false from those that might be true. So don't pretend to such confusion just to continue this argument.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist

If he was hit at the 45° angle that you claimed, then his arm shouldn't still have struck the chain

glad we can agree on how in that specific instance, hizu no touchy the chain
and since everything after that can be explained with a simple calim >> hizu, (which is, as i've half-agreed with you before, bullshit, but it's still a possible and valid explanation) we're now back to everything before the declaration
to which it can be explained simply because hizu hadn't thought of targeting the chain specifically before his declaration attempt, since again, it's not like he's able to came up with the solution to everything immediately, or maybe calim declaration surprised him

No, I don't, because the question isn't whether the story of Santa Claus has him going down a chimney; it's whether the story makes sense in having him go down the chimney (&c). People can write or draw stories that don't make sense, so showing a drawing of something doesn't establish that it somehow makes sense.

ah, so we're actually talking about character motivation all this time?

and btw

If someone wants to argue that the relevant panels just depict events poorly, then my response will be, okay, then the reason that those panels don't jointly make sense is because they were poorly drawn

how does that two panel don't jointly make sense, again?
the 'before struck' panel can still be interpreted as the targeted chain coming from 45° angle to me, but if you insist, you can also think of it as calim already pulling the targeted chain on the 'after struck' panel, which explains why the chain orientation seems to change
which is also actually a counter-point for this now that i think about it

You don't start your a swing at a fast-moving target when it is right in front of you. Hizu's arm had to be in motion toward the chain when he was struck.

the chain still needs time to be pulled, so starting the swing after the thrown ball missed you makes sense

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

glad we can agree on how in that specific instance, hizu no touchy the chain

Don't seek cheap poitn from typographic errors.

so we're actually talking about character motivation all this time?

The question of whether Santa Claus goes down a chimney isn't one of character interpretation, but of physics, physiology, and the geometry of chimneys. I've been arguing that there is no interpretation of this chapter under which it makes sense; under one interpretation it will fail in one way, and under another interpretation it will fail in a somewhat different way. Under the interpretation that you favor, there are a number of things required that are individually implausible or impossible; some of them are matters of basic physics. And I've already written about each.

how does that two panel don't jointly make sense, again?

No, we are not going to play the game it which you have me repeat myself. You're simply trying to inflict tedium.

the 'before struck' panel can still be interpreted as the targeted chain coming from 45° angle to me

Your original 45° claim was about the angle from which he was struck.

you can also think of it as calim already pulling the targeted chain on the 'after struck' panel, which explains why the chain orientation seems to change

Nope; the vector of force would make no sense.

the chain still needs time to be pulled, so starting the swing after the thrown ball missed you makes sense

The chain is moving so fast that it has no discernible curvature, the ball is in-frame, and Calim could begin immediately retracting it; so, no, the way that you image Hizu attempting to hit it would make no sense. That doesn't mean that the mangaka wasn't thinking just that; the chapter doesn't make sense.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist

The question of whether Santa Claus goes down a chimney isn't one of character interpretation, but of physics, physiology, and the geometry of chimneys.

oh, but by showing the exact scene on which the going down chimney happens, you can see that while normally, the physics, physiology, and the geometry of chimneys won't allow it, it just so happens that the specific chimneys in which the scene happens allow it

I've been arguing that there is no interpretation of this chapter under which it makes sense; under one interpretation it will fail in one way, and under another interpretation it will fail in a somewhat different way. Under the interpretation that you favor, there are a number of things required that are individually implausible or impossible; some of them are matters of basic physics. And I've already written about each

and i've explained how each and every one of them has an interpretation that's somewhat plausible one way or another.

Your original 45° claim was about the angle from which he was struck.

eh, not exclusively. i've covered all bases on how even if the targeted chain is perpendicular at the time of declaration, it would still make sense one way or another.

Nope; the vector of force would make no sense.

nah man, the vector of force still make perfect sense one way or another

The chain is moving so fast that it has no discernible curvature, the ball is in-frame, and Calim could begin immediately retracting it; so, no, the way that you image Hizu attempting to hit it would make no sense.

>moving so fast
>calim could begin immediately retracting it
physics, man. what happens to momentum and all.
and the curvature is shown on the next panel, so probs the the curve is just off-panel on the before struck panel. it'd make sense one way or another.

That doesn't mean that the mangaka wasn't thinking just that; the chapter doesn't make sense.

nah man, it makes sense one way or another

 

[Oeconomist]

@mage_goo—

oh, but by showing the exact scene on which the going down chimney happens, you can see that while normally, the physics, physiology, and the geometry of chimneys won't allow it, it just so happens that the specific chimneys in which the scene happens allow it

If that were true, then all stories would make sense. And, again, if you really thought that, then you'd be perfectly unable to distinguish stories that must be false from stories that might be true. So you're really just pretending not to see an essential point. At this stage, your behavior is operationally that of a troll. My part in the discussion is ended; you of course may continue to monkey-dance.

 

[mage_goo]

@Oeconomist

If that were true, then all stories would make sense. And, again, if you really thought that, then you'd be perfectly unable to distinguish stories that must be false from stories that might be true.

well, then let me ask you this.
what makes you think a story where people can turn steel chain into styrofoam makes sense in the first place?
the essential point is that it makes sense in the context of the story, that's why showing the scene,and thus, the context, matters

At this stage, your behavior is operationally that of a troll. My part in the discussion is ended; you of course may continue to monkey-dance.

ayy, mate, you don't want to insist how stupid the author is for not making calim so stupid that he'd just let hizu slow-falls touch his chain?
so sad, so bad

 

[Weetch]

Wtf is this comment section, just enjoy the manga, not everyone is a jojo character that can think of 20 different scenarios to win a fight in a milisecond.

 

[nbhstcqbvvpmacjrmv]

This is really going in a weird way where the manga explicitly said acting like a hero just for the sake of it is messed up as hell. That was with Saike. Now we have Calim. And now we have Hizu, idolizing the thing Saike was explicitly criticized for.