Schäferhund - Vol. 1 Ch. 1
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Major combatants by most warcrimes
1 USSR (ordered genocidr of civilians (during combat) drop bombs on their allies, would kill so many surrendering soldiers, and were Just terrible. (And order 223))
2 Japan (One could argue they deserve the top spot but Poland happened so no)
3 Germany (mostly SS but many Wehrmacht)
Below here significantly less war crimes than those above
4 UK (mostly revenge attacks m because of the battle of Britain or foreign soldiers in British military)
5 France (complicated because French resistance)
6 USA(not Counting Hiroshima and Nagasaki, statistically one of the best out there for not committing many war crimes during the war but during the day they didn’t have the logistical capacity to take prisoners so some warcrimes same thing on some paratroop missions)
Note: Italy is not a major combatant
1 USSR (ordered genocidr of civilians (during combat) drop bombs on their allies, would kill so many surrendering soldiers, and were Just terrible. (And order 223))
2 Japan (One could argue they deserve the top spot but Poland happened so no)
3 Germany (mostly SS but many Wehrmacht)
Below here significantly less war crimes than those above
4 UK (mostly revenge attacks m because of the battle of Britain or foreign soldiers in British military)
5 France (complicated because French resistance)
6 USA(not Counting Hiroshima and Nagasaki, statistically one of the best out there for not committing many war crimes during the war but during the day they didn’t have the logistical capacity to take prisoners so some warcrimes same thing on some paratroop missions)
Note: Italy is not a major combatant
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@dougman7j "mostly SS but many Wehrmacht" that a bit downplaying what actually Germany did
@NMLcygni
That was specifically a statement on the distribution of the warcrimes Within Germany and makes no mention of The total quantity. The purpose of that line was to refute the Clean Wehrmacht Myth.
Germany’s positioning (below as uposed to above the USSR) really serves to show the doctrine difference. The USSR did most of their massacring/genocides During battle (Easier ”Liberation” Propaganda) making them warcrimes. Germany did most of their massacring/genocides immediately after battle and thus were considered war adjacent crimes against humanity or similar. This does NOT lessen the seriousness of these actions I just had to remain consistent with my units of Measurements.
FUCK NAZIS
That was specifically a statement on the distribution of the warcrimes Within Germany and makes no mention of The total quantity. The purpose of that line was to refute the Clean Wehrmacht Myth.
Germany’s positioning (below as uposed to above the USSR) really serves to show the doctrine difference. The USSR did most of their massacring/genocides During battle (Easier ”Liberation” Propaganda) making them warcrimes. Germany did most of their massacring/genocides immediately after battle and thus were considered war adjacent crimes against humanity or similar. This does NOT lessen the seriousness of these actions I just had to remain consistent with my units of Measurements.
FUCK NAZIS
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@dougman7j
oh yeah i agree that clean Wehrmacht myth is complete bullshit and beginning the invasion of the soviet union Hitler gave direct orders to treat the citizens and soldiers of the USSR as sub-human for both Wehrmacht and SS
for me Germany is top since they declared a " war of annihilation" against the soviet union and that soviet P.O.W where purposefully starved to death and worked to death resulting 3.5 mil deaths around 58% death rate and German pow captured by soviets had mortality of 13.5%. this just soldiers which surrendered and everybody knows the holocaust against Jews,Slavic-people,gypsy's and others.
these crimes could fit under crimes against humanity
the soviet union also commited war crimes as well as you mentioned like katyn massacre against the poles and revenge killings when the soviet union was on German lands and other co-belligerents for example committing about 2 million rapes against German woman and looting in Germany but red army made attempts to stop this,also this treatment was also given to soviet citizens to who volunteery fought for the Nazi regime who where marked as traitors and where also killed.
i think the main difference between the two is that Nazi regime war crimes and crimes against humanity where planned against the soviet union and soviet war crimes where revenge driven which where fulled by propaganda and soldiers experience for what they have witnessed.
as you said
FUCK NAZIS
oh yeah i agree that clean Wehrmacht myth is complete bullshit and beginning the invasion of the soviet union Hitler gave direct orders to treat the citizens and soldiers of the USSR as sub-human for both Wehrmacht and SS
for me Germany is top since they declared a " war of annihilation" against the soviet union and that soviet P.O.W where purposefully starved to death and worked to death resulting 3.5 mil deaths around 58% death rate and German pow captured by soviets had mortality of 13.5%. this just soldiers which surrendered and everybody knows the holocaust against Jews,Slavic-people,gypsy's and others.
these crimes could fit under crimes against humanity
the soviet union also commited war crimes as well as you mentioned like katyn massacre against the poles and revenge killings when the soviet union was on German lands and other co-belligerents for example committing about 2 million rapes against German woman and looting in Germany but red army made attempts to stop this,also this treatment was also given to soviet citizens to who volunteery fought for the Nazi regime who where marked as traitors and where also killed.
i think the main difference between the two is that Nazi regime war crimes and crimes against humanity where planned against the soviet union and soviet war crimes where revenge driven which where fulled by propaganda and soldiers experience for what they have witnessed.
as you said
FUCK NAZIS
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Oh god I just encounter this manga. You can always count on Japanese to whitewash nazis. I mean I am not opposed to showing german soldiers but this is on the level of Leni Riefenstahl movies. Heroic SS against degenerated partisans and maybe don't try to make SS a good guys?
Also I think some people are wrong that this is happening in USSR, I think it's Poland. I mean 7TP is a polish tank so why would it be in Russia?
@Dougman7j
Yeah, I agree with @NMLcygni.
I mean you really can't rank who was worst war criminal but I would put Japan in the first place. Just look at Nankin, the overall situation on conquered land in China and Korea or just POW/civilian wellbeing.
Germany was worst then USRR in the matter of Russian POW treatment, overall atrocities in eastern Europe and by trying to literally eradicate Slavs. Moreover, Wehrmacht wasn't any better than SS, in some cases even worse, maybe not most of the regular troops but garrisons, engineering and support troops that were used to antipartisan or civilian suppression tasks.
Allies were a tad better but not that much as the most people think, mass carpet bombing policy, city bombing even when it wasn't necessary, etc.
USRR was worse than Allies in that department but not that bad as people assume, the actually tried to suppress mass raping (of course not from humanitarian reasons but to prevent of STDs), looting(to enforce some order), the main atrocities they commit was to anti-communist partisans in Poland and other countries, except that nothing was doctrinal like in case of Japan, Germany, Italy(Ethiopia) or even Allies. Most of the atrocities were committed as an act of revenge but they also happened in Allies troops, especially in international divisions.
Also I think some people are wrong that this is happening in USSR, I think it's Poland. I mean 7TP is a polish tank so why would it be in Russia?
@Dougman7j
Yeah, I agree with @NMLcygni.
I mean you really can't rank who was worst war criminal but I would put Japan in the first place. Just look at Nankin, the overall situation on conquered land in China and Korea or just POW/civilian wellbeing.
Germany was worst then USRR in the matter of Russian POW treatment, overall atrocities in eastern Europe and by trying to literally eradicate Slavs. Moreover, Wehrmacht wasn't any better than SS, in some cases even worse, maybe not most of the regular troops but garrisons, engineering and support troops that were used to antipartisan or civilian suppression tasks.
Allies were a tad better but not that much as the most people think, mass carpet bombing policy, city bombing even when it wasn't necessary, etc.
USRR was worse than Allies in that department but not that bad as people assume, the actually tried to suppress mass raping (of course not from humanitarian reasons but to prevent of STDs), looting(to enforce some order), the main atrocities they commit was to anti-communist partisans in Poland and other countries, except that nothing was doctrinal like in case of Japan, Germany, Italy(Ethiopia) or even Allies. Most of the atrocities were committed as an act of revenge but they also happened in Allies troops, especially in international divisions.
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So the Waffen SS were just a bunch of heroes fighting against the barbaric Poles? A rather twisted view of history.
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@kazaddum
"By September 1941, the mortality rate among Soviet POWs was in the order of 1% per day.[13] According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM), by the winter of 1941, "starvation and disease resulted in mass death of unimaginable proportions".[14] This deliberate starvation, despite food being available, led many desperate prisoners to resort to acts of cannibalism,[15] was Nazi policy,[16] and was all in accordance with the Hunger Plan developed by the Reich Minister of Food Herbert Backe. For the Germans, Soviet POWs were expendable: they consumed calories needed by others and, unlike Western POWs, were considered to be subhuman.[17]"
this is from Wikipedia about the German mistreatment of soviet prisoners
"By September 1941, the mortality rate among Soviet POWs was in the order of 1% per day.[13] According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM), by the winter of 1941, "starvation and disease resulted in mass death of unimaginable proportions".[14] This deliberate starvation, despite food being available, led many desperate prisoners to resort to acts of cannibalism,[15] was Nazi policy,[16] and was all in accordance with the Hunger Plan developed by the Reich Minister of Food Herbert Backe. For the Germans, Soviet POWs were expendable: they consumed calories needed by others and, unlike Western POWs, were considered to be subhuman.[17]"
this is from Wikipedia about the German mistreatment of soviet prisoners
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heil
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@AngryFerret You are confused about some terms. Wehrmacht was the whole German military, including army, navy, and air forces. Maybe you were trying to refer to Heer, the regular army?
The Soviet Union sent death squads, particans of their own, to murder enemy civilians as a tactic to lower enemy morale. Those guys had the orders to infiltrate beyond the frontlines and simply kill any humans they encounter, civilian or soldier, apart from possible collaborators if they were supposed to receive local help. The Soviet Union was in the beginning an ally of the Nazi Germany, just another totalitarian tyranny without human rights, just like Germany. They weren't that different, as expected. Perhaps the whole ethnicity obsession the nazis had was the biggest difference and it also made them look more cruel in an organised, systematic fashion. Not to mention the Germans were more organised anyway, unlike the young Soviet Union, which had got rid of most old leadership and governmental structures when the communists (Bolsheviks) took over.
The Soviet Union sent death squads, particans of their own, to murder enemy civilians as a tactic to lower enemy morale. Those guys had the orders to infiltrate beyond the frontlines and simply kill any humans they encounter, civilian or soldier, apart from possible collaborators if they were supposed to receive local help. The Soviet Union was in the beginning an ally of the Nazi Germany, just another totalitarian tyranny without human rights, just like Germany. They weren't that different, as expected. Perhaps the whole ethnicity obsession the nazis had was the biggest difference and it also made them look more cruel in an organised, systematic fashion. Not to mention the Germans were more organised anyway, unlike the young Soviet Union, which had got rid of most old leadership and governmental structures when the communists (Bolsheviks) took over.
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@Kaarme
Umm I was referring to Wermaht as Wehrmacht, SS units weren't the part of the regular chain of command and were not part of Wehrmacht. All of Wehrmacht's armed forces and SS committed atrocities.
Well, that is true that USRR got rid of the old commanders but still, it wasn't just an unorganized mess. What do you mean by death squads? Partisants? The nature of unequal combat requires less moral behavior but this can be also attributed to other resistant movements in other parts of the world. Also murder enemy civilians? Where? Most of the eastern campaign was fought in USRR or Polish territory, so either you would kill your civilians, that actually would benefit III Reich or civilians from the other occupied country, that would also just benefited them. Or you are talking about the reaction to Akcja Burza of polish resistance? Well I've never have said that USSR played nicely.
Umm I was referring to Wermaht as Wehrmacht, SS units weren't the part of the regular chain of command and were not part of Wehrmacht. All of Wehrmacht's armed forces and SS committed atrocities.
Well, that is true that USRR got rid of the old commanders but still, it wasn't just an unorganized mess. What do you mean by death squads? Partisants? The nature of unequal combat requires less moral behavior but this can be also attributed to other resistant movements in other parts of the world. Also murder enemy civilians? Where? Most of the eastern campaign was fought in USRR or Polish territory, so either you would kill your civilians, that actually would benefit III Reich or civilians from the other occupied country, that would also just benefited them. Or you are talking about the reaction to Akcja Burza of polish resistance? Well I've never have said that USSR played nicely.
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@AngryFerret I live in a country that was attacked by the Soviet Union with the intention of being annexed, as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, when Germany and the Soviet Union started the war in Europe (it was already going on in Asia, courtesy of Japan). The Soviets used all manner of tactics, which included partisan squads with the orders to kill everyone they encounter, including small children.
I doubt the kriegsmarine or the air forces had any particular atrocious tendencies, you know. What would those even be? Some nazis actually wanted hospital ships sunk, but the submarine commanders weren't too fond of those orders, generally speaking. Some might have done it, I can't remember, there were lots of uboats and lots of commanders. Air forces were supposed to bomb all targets, which is what all sides in the war did. It was total war. The culmination of indiscriminate killing by air forces were of course the atomic bombs.
When people talk about the war crimes by the German military forces, it's usually the executions and purges, even torching whole villages, performed by the SS and elements of the Heer.
I doubt the kriegsmarine or the air forces had any particular atrocious tendencies, you know. What would those even be? Some nazis actually wanted hospital ships sunk, but the submarine commanders weren't too fond of those orders, generally speaking. Some might have done it, I can't remember, there were lots of uboats and lots of commanders. Air forces were supposed to bomb all targets, which is what all sides in the war did. It was total war. The culmination of indiscriminate killing by air forces were of course the atomic bombs.
When people talk about the war crimes by the German military forces, it's usually the executions and purges, even torching whole villages, performed by the SS and elements of the Heer.
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@Kaarme
Well me too, most of my family was also persecuted by Soviets but this doesn't excuse me for looking at facts.
When and where there was an order for partisan to kill everyone? You still didn't answer my question. The one that used this tactic the most are III Reich (Ustaša, White Russians, foreign support companies and UPA)
Also don't move the goal post from my comment it was obvious that I was referring to division between Wehrmacht and SS and the popular believe that only SS committed atrocities.
But to account for Kriegsmarine war crimes, most of them are connected with killing POW, shore duties and unrestricted submarine warfare just look at Dönitzs trial.
Well me too, most of my family was also persecuted by Soviets but this doesn't excuse me for looking at facts.
When and where there was an order for partisan to kill everyone? You still didn't answer my question. The one that used this tactic the most are III Reich (Ustaša, White Russians, foreign support companies and UPA)
Also don't move the goal post from my comment it was obvious that I was referring to division between Wehrmacht and SS and the popular believe that only SS committed atrocities.
But to account for Kriegsmarine war crimes, most of them are connected with killing POW, shore duties and unrestricted submarine warfare just look at Dönitzs trial.
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@AngryFerret Ah, I have to apologise for using the word "partisan" incorrectly. My mistake. Technically I shouldn't have used it at all in this context and that is probably what left you confused. So, no, they weren't partisans, strictly speaking, but just irregulars the Soviets sent behind the enemy lines to kill civilians and soldiers alike, and destroy any supplies. Seems like it's quite common over here in my home country to use the word "partisan" incorrectly. I'll have to keep this in mind.
SS was not 100% rotten either. SS had foreign fighters as well, for various reasons, and while many of them were genuine nazi supporters, some of them couldn't have cared less about the nazi ideology and only wanted to see the communists defeated, which was a goal the UK and the USA also joined when the Cold War began. However, since the SS was basically specifically tasked to carry out the goals of the nazi party, naturally the crimes would concentrate there. Among the Heer, some commanders did even try to object when the orders to kill civilians came or when they witnessed the SS doing it, but I doubt among the SS such objections arose all that much if at all.
Yeah, there were thousands of people in the Kriegsmarine so it's natural there would be those more willing to do nasty deeds, whereas there were those who were more honourable. As always, some people found it easier to ignore the orders from the nazi leadership, some found it harder. If you want to have a look at the other side, check how the cruiser Graf Spee operated. As a side note, the German stance on submarine warfare changed into a harder direction after the Laconia incident.
Talking about war crimes and judging things by them is troublesome in any case because only the loser of a war is ever guilty of war crimes. While people know the winners typically also did all sorts of things in total war, those things are never formally investigated, let alone anyone judged. So, it's 100% one-sided.
Sorry, I don't know what this means.
SS was not 100% rotten either. SS had foreign fighters as well, for various reasons, and while many of them were genuine nazi supporters, some of them couldn't have cared less about the nazi ideology and only wanted to see the communists defeated, which was a goal the UK and the USA also joined when the Cold War began. However, since the SS was basically specifically tasked to carry out the goals of the nazi party, naturally the crimes would concentrate there. Among the Heer, some commanders did even try to object when the orders to kill civilians came or when they witnessed the SS doing it, but I doubt among the SS such objections arose all that much if at all.
Yeah, there were thousands of people in the Kriegsmarine so it's natural there would be those more willing to do nasty deeds, whereas there were those who were more honourable. As always, some people found it easier to ignore the orders from the nazi leadership, some found it harder. If you want to have a look at the other side, check how the cruiser Graf Spee operated. As a side note, the German stance on submarine warfare changed into a harder direction after the Laconia incident.
Talking about war crimes and judging things by them is troublesome in any case because only the loser of a war is ever guilty of war crimes. While people know the winners typically also did all sorts of things in total war, those things are never formally investigated, let alone anyone judged. So, it's 100% one-sided.
Sorry, I don't know what this means.
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@Kaarme
Sorry if something was not clear, one of the faults of writing in a public communication without a morning coffee
Still if you refer to irregulars, could I ask to what events and what units do you refer? It is hard to address the issue if I have no idea what we are talking about.
Well, of course, there never are clear situations. Especially with later pressure and the scraping the barrel, the ideological character of SS was diluted. Nevertheless, both SS(because of the character of the units) and Wehrmacht(every branch, but because of the nature of service mostly land forces) committed a horrendous amount of war crimes. Just the treatment of the USSR POW and the support of ethnic cleansing is enough to not even compare them to other sides, well with exception to maybe Japan.
Sorry if something was not clear, one of the faults of writing in a public communication without a morning coffee
Still if you refer to irregulars, could I ask to what events and what units do you refer? It is hard to address the issue if I have no idea what we are talking about.
Well, of course, there never are clear situations. Especially with later pressure and the scraping the barrel, the ideological character of SS was diluted. Nevertheless, both SS(because of the character of the units) and Wehrmacht(every branch, but because of the nature of service mostly land forces) committed a horrendous amount of war crimes. Just the treatment of the USSR POW and the support of ethnic cleansing is enough to not even compare them to other sides, well with exception to maybe Japan.
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@AngryFerret See, even the Wikipedia article calls them partisans, even though it's indeed not strictly correct. That's just Wikipedia, but it should give at least a limited view of the stuff. I'm not sure how many sources in English there might be.
Just to be clear, it's not my intention to try to defend the Germans or downplay the deeds they did. Great many of the murders will also simply remain unrecognised, buried in the chaos of the war. They were brutal, and they were especially brutal if people offered any resistance. It's just that it rubs me the wrong way when people just keep talking about how the nazis (even though barely 10% of the Germans were nazis) kept doing horrible things and the Allies saved the world. My home country, while not meeting a fate as terrible as Poland, for example, still drew a very short straw in all of it. It's especially annoying when people keep praising the Soviet Union in playing the biggest role in defeating the Nazi Germany (which it indeed did), but then conveniently forget that the Soviet Union was also one of the original offenders and starters of the whole 2nd World War, and an ally of the Nazi Germany in the beginning.
Just to be clear, it's not my intention to try to defend the Germans or downplay the deeds they did. Great many of the murders will also simply remain unrecognised, buried in the chaos of the war. They were brutal, and they were especially brutal if people offered any resistance. It's just that it rubs me the wrong way when people just keep talking about how the nazis (even though barely 10% of the Germans were nazis) kept doing horrible things and the Allies saved the world. My home country, while not meeting a fate as terrible as Poland, for example, still drew a very short straw in all of it. It's especially annoying when people keep praising the Soviet Union in playing the biggest role in defeating the Nazi Germany (which it indeed did), but then conveniently forget that the Soviet Union was also one of the original offenders and starters of the whole 2nd World War, and an ally of the Nazi Germany in the beginning.
