Sekirara ni Kiss - Vol. 6 Ch. 23

[stunfire]

@Oeconomist

I've read a few of your comments and I find it interesting that you are suggesting that chitose and kinousuke dating each other means that chitose and kinosuke are in fact single... and therefore, assert no ethical issues with the bro going after Chitose.

Although the story doesnt outright declare that their relationship is exclusive or monogamous, I believe it would be fair to assume this as the story does not introduce casual dating.

There is also a matter of consent. One may interpret Yui's actions as innocent like a brother to a sister, however, his confession of love and declaration of his intentions certainly gives context to his actions as less than innocent.
He is doing all sorts of things to her person with those intentions without her consent.
Although Chitose, visibly bothered at times doesnt clearly tell him to stop, consent should not be inferred from silence, passivity, lack or resistance or lack of an active response.

 

[Oeconomist]

@kronix—

No, by my logic, the desire person's being in some sort of romantic relationship is not sufficient to set him or her off-limits to courtship. Relationships of different sorts have different boundaries.

Were Chitose not in a relationship, there would be no discussion of whether Yui were allowed to court her or otherwise to show affection. The issue is of whether that sort of relationship that she actually has with Kinosuke somehow puts her off-limits. Blurring the distinctions amongst different sorts of relationships doesn't make a case that she's in one that sets her off-limits. The story presents not only Chitose's words and gestures, but her thoughts as well; none of these show either Chitose or Kinosuke thinking in those terms, nor otherwise telling Yui such a thing. Chitose doesn't tell Yui that he must stop. Kinosuke doesn't argue that Yui should stop because of the relationship; Kinosuke only argues that Yui should stop because he is not serious.

Noting that Chitose and Kinosuke haven't established a relationship of a more exclusive sort and that Chitose hasn't otherwise indicated that she wants Yui to stop courting her doesn't mean that they or she can't. It's absurd for you to try to say that, in claiming that Chitose and Yui haven't done these things, I've somehow cleared a path for people to be sexually assaulted.

You're attempting to put two and two together to get seventeen.

 

[Oeconomist]

@stunfire—

No, again, I have repeatedly noted that relationships come in many varieties. People are assuming that relationships with one set of characteristics necessarily have other characteristics as well, when they don't.

If you look-up words such as “monogamous” and “single”, then you'll find that standard dictionaries define them in ways incompatible with how you're using them. And, along with those verbal confusions, you're bringing conceptual confusions.

Relationships can have exclusivities of some sorts, while not having exclusivities of others. You cannot simply infer that because two sorts of exclusivities are often combined, one necessarily entails the other. The relationship between Chitose and Kinosuke seems to have exclusivities of some sorts; it seems not to have exclusivities of other sorts. The words, actions, and thoughts of Chitose and the words and actions of Kinosuke belie some of the exclusivity claims that people are making about their relationship.

There is no question that Yui is courting Chitose, but to write as if doing so is ipso facto not “innocent” begs the question.

Consent is indeed very important, but the discomfort that Chitose reveals is not that of feeling victimized. She is sad for Yui, much as I have been sad for people whose affection I could not fully return. If Chitose were not in a relationship, no one would grab for a reading that Yui were out-of-bounds, and those who are now grabbing for that reading are ignoring the actual actions, words, and thoughts of Chitose and of Kinosuke.

 

[mystline]

@Oeconomist confirmed real life soyboy cuck that gets off watching people rail his signicant other, i feel sorry for him, trying to justify the brothers action, smh.

 

[Oeconomist]

@mystline—

You're doing the equivalent of claiming that I'm a proven servant of the Devil, because I don't accept the moral claims of your religion.

Really, if an ethical system cannot be better defended, then no one should believe it.

 

[stunfire]

@Oeconomist

While I agree with you that there are many types of relationships and the audience has a part in ascribing characteristics/values/expectations/assumptions to a relationship, I believe that context matters. Why do I assume that this relationship has a particular set of characteristics/values/expectations/assumptions? Well this is a shoujo manga and it follows certain standard conventions leading to a common understanding. There should be a common understanding in shoujo at least, that a committed/exclusive relationship means that both parties should not be open to dating other people. It is also assumed through shoujo convention that the chitose x kinosuke relationship is a committed/exclusive relationship.
Should the author want to deviate from shoujo conventions, like for instance in a casual dating scenario where it might be ok for the bro to court Chitose openly/aggressively without backlash, I would expect that the author would have to make this clear in the story which I don't think they have.

While Yui may have sympathetic characterization, he takes advantage of their history, their friendship, their current student-teacher relationship, her sympathy and her admiration to make moves on her while also being ambiguous that he wants to take their relationship to the next step without her consent. When I say that Yui's actions are "not so innocent" when looking at the context of his intentions, I am talking about manipulation. Issues of consent doesn't necessarily equal to victimization like in sexual assault but it has to do with power/control and Yui wants to control chitose's feelings towards him without her being aware and without her say so. Later when he does declare his intentions, he still does not get her consent. He touches/grabs/hugs her, steals her time and attention, goes beyond his professional duties to help her in her career path. She is expected to accept it and to eventually turn his way or feel guilty enough to turn his way.

 

[Oeconomist]

@stunfire—

It's perfectly fair to start with an assumption that a relationship is informed by the culture of its participants, and that a relationship within a work of fiction is informed by the conventions of the genre. But all that is trumped by anything to the contrary reflected in the words and actions of the characters. I keep returning to those words and actions. For example, I have repeatedly noted that Kinosuke has argued against Yui's pursuit of Chisote, but only on a basis of Kinosuke's belief that Yui is not serious.

And, again, in analyzing the issue of consent, what Yui has been doing would not be considered a breach if Chitose were in no relationship, so the case that he is crossing boundaries must turn on the nature of the relationship. So we're right back to the point that Chitose and Kinosuke are not presenting their relationship as one that precludes Chitose being wooed by Yui.

 

[Zephyrus]

@mystline
If you don't agree with another poster's opinion, cool. However, we attack the content of a post, not the poster. Your comment as it stands is a pretty uncivil post, which is a violation of 5.1, Be Civil.

Please take the time to consider how to post more thoughtfully and go over our rules here: https://mangadex.org/rules

Thanks,

Zeph

 

[stunfire]

@Oeconomist

You're suggesting that when Kinosuke confronts Yui to not "bother Chitose if he's not serious", it gives the indication that Kinosuke is permitting Yui to pursue Chitose if he is "serious". I think it would be a reach to say that in that moment, Kinosuke is giving his blessing for Yui to date/pursue her.
For Kinosuke, I believe he is calling out Yui's behaviour. Yui's flirting is going beyond the bounds of "friendship" and he should stop because he is not being serious/sincere. He perceives Yui doesn't want/need anything so when he sees Yui being all flirty with Chitose, he sees Yui purposefully giving the wrong impression to Chitose who would take it at face value and end up being unnecessarily troubled. This backfires on him when Yui actually makes his intentions clear of wanting to pursue Chitose. Kinosuke now realizes the fact that his brother is seriously in love with his girlfriend. This was the big takeaway for this scene imo.

Yui goes on to try and pursue/seduce Chitose, choosing to wedge himself in the relationship between Chitose and Kinosuke. He also chooses to potentially throw away his relationship with one or both of them. He makes these choices regardless of how the other parties feel. This, to me brings his morality into question.

If Chitose were single, there may be an opportunity for Yui to pursue this relationship... without any backlash however it would be an entirely different story. I would still consider Yui's courtship of Chitose problematic because of the way he has behaved in the story so far. As I mentioned before he didn't really care about Chitose's independent will. I'm sure in a hypothetical situation, the story could change that aspect and write him out to be the perfect guy or reveal new information to address this problem. There is also is the possibility that if Chitose remained single, Yui would not realize his feelings for her at all. There would be countless possibilities of where the story could go from there. I'm sure we could talk all day about hypotheticals and how things could be made different but its futile to make judgments on something that can be whatever you want it to be.

 

[Oeconomist]

@stunfire—

Don't pseudo-quote me. Anyone can read my comments to see whether I've used the phrase “bother Chitose if he's not serious”, which you put in quotation marks; they'll find that i haven't.

I was arguing with you because you seemed to desire a serious and reasonable argument. I see that I was wrong.

 

[ceramexis]

I hate both of these brothers. One's a asshole pervert the other's a dramatic asshole beta.