Shiawase Kanako no Koroshiya Seikatsu - Vol. 2 Ch. 23

[Candymon]

May the people in this chapter's comment section find their own happiness in life. It's not like you folks are looking to date each other, right? 😅

Fertility: If you want kids, then this is very important (in addition to age, other factors affect fertility for all genders). Also important for propagation of the human species/retaining or expanding your tribal population, especially if it would help hold or gain power within a society/state/nation. If not (i.e. you don't want kids, or already have had enough kids and don't want more), then as a desired trait it is reprioritized lower. Related to youth/age. Related to attraction and hormones. Separate from beauty.

@nivinator

But he seems to think that relationships are founded on these baser instincts when really, they aren't--not the healthy ones, anyway.

One theory of relationships is that it can start from courtship and a mutual attraction (that may or not include these baser instincts) and then eventually either lead to a break up or transition into a state of contentment/friendship/continued commitment after adjustment and agreement by both parties, with a periodic reevaluation of the relationship. I think people/society like to focus on the former stage because it's more exciting and self-contained, but find it harder to discuss the latter because the experience is often more personalized (thus less relatable) and a stage of unclear length, or because the negatives are unpleasant or even "shameful" to talk about. Healthy relationship or not, everyone will work through this (or not) and decide in their own way.


Youth: Some cultures equate youthfulness to one form of beauty (a factor in attraction, discussed later), but not always a desired trait in a potential mate. A short anecdote about age preferences in regards to dating and marriage:

Spoiler

[ul][li]I know a couple of male friends in their thirties that date women that are 21-22, and they seem to be happy and their partner seems to be decent people, so I let them be.[/li][li]I also know many female and male friends in the same thirties range that would refuse to date anyone under 25 (up to under 29) because of the divergence in cultural and personal viewpoints and being in different stages of life/maturity.[/li][li]I also know of a few friends, men and women, in that same age range that are fine to date older, because they seek someone with more life experience and they have also come into their own person after working on their career and themselves in their twenties and thirties, with partners from a wider age range now finding them attractive.[/li][/ul]

@furn_ace When I look at Statistics section the Wikipedia page on "Age disparity in sexual relationships," I see a mostly normal distribution with a slight skew. If we're talking age difference of 2-3 years either way, then that's 60.4% of married couples. Extend it to 4-5 years either way, that's 76.6% of married couples.I understand the reasons described in the wiki about why some men have the younger age preference, but the data doesn't does support your theory that men in their thirties only want to date 18-24 year olds... some do, but the majority seem to marry someone of similar age.

I'm not saying your theory is necessarily wrong, but your sample to support it might be biased by people and community around you, and might not reflect the reality everywhere in your state, country or the rest of the world. My anecdote above is influenced by where I live (a major city) and the social sphere and socioeconomic statuses of the people I know. Our views are also seen through our individual lenses of what a desirable/"high value" mate is and our dating environment. Not sure where your view falls along the realistic to pessimistic scale, but maybe I live in a more optimistic situation where I can find partners with shared values and interest, plus traits that I want?

And it's not like choosing a career means a bad love life or a life of sadness, lol 😋.

Spoiler

The extreme examples (career robot vs. breeding machine) used by fellow commenters doesn't really add much to the argument when the majority of people are somewhere in between. People will meet potential mates through social and work events, dating apps exist. There are those that get married early and have kids, but people continue to grow or they focus on their career to the point of family-breaking issues, so it's not like early marriage or kids (when you're a new adult and your financial power is generally low and still evolving) is the solution for a blissful personal life. I also know a few acquaintances of mine (male and female) are in the generation or two above, and while they have relationships, they never married because they didn't want to or couldn't for a reason or another. I'm sure there might be some regrets, but they also find happiness through extended family, their social circle, their work circle and contributions, and also serving the greater community. Getting married isn't the only path to life fulfillment. On a related note, not everyone is entitled to everything they want either.

Beauty: There might be some biological underpinnings for seeking out the "most desirable mate," but what constitutes beauty can be subjective.

Spoiler

I disagree with my female and male friends about who they consider beautiful, really depends on that person's taste. Desirable body shape can be rooted in cultural and societal preferences, as carrying extra weight in past centuries was considered attractive (because you had money to eat and could show it off that way). And as mentioned earlier, some cultures equate youth to one type of beauty/desirableness, and this might be tied to fertility, survival instincts, and tribal/political/social power. But when it comes to your partner, you have to weigh how much you follow a societal "standard" (set and upheld by those who most benefit from it) and how much you fulfill your personal preference/standard, which may or may not overlap for whatever reason.

Each of us live in their own reality, where the "rules" in one person's circumstances might not be true in another person's. Sure, there are some common items (e.g. biology: menopause for women and both worse quantity and quality of sperm as men age, along with death, are unavoidable; as someone else mentioned earlier, female and male infertility unrelated to age also exists) shared across our potentially intersecting realities, and plenty of societal/cultural values, legal norms, and personal preferences that can be unpleasant or unfair for some or that can be leveraged by others for personal gain or the greater good. A person's limits and potential will vary from person to person, and they may or may not have control over factors that affect those boundaries. Life is not rigid and has exceptions, and fellow commenters might be underestimating the range of experiences that others have.

 

[furn_ace]

🤡@nivinator

Nope, only in the ancient times. Since YOUR mind is stuck in the "ancient times," this might be how you think. But no, not all women and men think the same way. You're imposing your stereotypes onto entire groups of people.

Ah, yes, let's completely ignore the statistics 🙃
Also that wikipedia link I gave you explains a lot on the gender dynamics on why men mostly prefer younger women, but let's ignore that as well 🙃

So you think every woman who gets ignored by their target men are going to become misandrists? And that every women who doesn't get a man by thirty is going to get ignored by their age group for the rest of their lives?

Not every woman, but the ones who were pursuing their careers first and marriage second. How do you think "where have the good men gone?" came about?

I know several people in real life who can completely disprove that theory.

Ah, anecdotal evidence, the most reliable of kind of evidence. I too know of several people in real life who can support my theory.

Once again, you're using your own experiences to speak for an entire group of people.

I'm also using statistics, but objective facts don't matter, amirite? 🙃

@Candymon

I see a mostly normal distribution with a slight skew.

Yes, sure. Slight.

but the majority seem to marry someone of similar age.

Ah, yes, but at what age range do these similar age marriages tend to be?
I suggest you continue reading the entire thing, and not just stop at just looking at the chart.

I'm not saying your theory is necessarily wrong, but your sample to support it might be biased by people and community around you, and might not reflect the reality everywhere in your state, country or the rest of the world.

There are global statistics in that wikipedia link too which supports my theory, but sure let's just ignore that.
Your argument can also be applied to obesity in the US. Sure, it might be different from place to place, but that doesn't change the fact that it's prevalent in the US.

And it's not like choosing a career means a bad love life or a life of sadness, lol 😋.

Getting married isn't the only path to life fulfillment.

Strawman argument. I never said anything about choosing career first = miserable life. You high or something?

Beauty

Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but beauty also diminishes over time.
Why do you think there are so many skin-care products for women? It's to hide/delay the effects of aging, because wrinkles are considered ugly.
"Look at the wrinkles on that chick! That's so hot!" said no man ever.

Life is not rigid and has exceptions, and fellow commenters might be underestimating the range of experiences that others have.

Everything has exceptions, duh. That's why I'm using statistics and generalizations, because patterns exist for a reason.
Are you so sure that by some miracle you're going to be one of those "exceptions"? That's a completely unrealistic expectation. Stupid even. That's like expecting to win the lottery at the first attempt.

Also, you're going off tangent.
I was arguing about how if women want to get married, their best chances are at striking when they're at their peak fertility, because according to the statistics, men prefer younger women. It's all about increasing your chances/odds/probability. But if you choose to ignore said opportunity, then you don't have the right to complain like the women in this chapter.

 

[1234muse]

oh dear god. I regret reading this comments section

 

[Hexxy]

why is this discussion still happening

why am I on the same side of an argument as someone I've butt heads with in the past on here several times

Are aggressively straight men okay. Do they need a nappie

 

[CookieMuncher]

@1234muse

Reading the comment section of the first chapter of volume two made me want to drop scanlating this series... but comments be comments... o.o

 

[Candymon]

@Hexxy

why is this discussion still happening

Because it's fun reading arguments based on a Wikipedia article referencing two decades old studies, then looking at more recent statistics to see how much is still valid.

Some people do research and fact checking for a living; I'm eating Indian takeout, drinking a bottle of wine, and doing this for fun (admittedly, I'm a little curious too about what the data has to say on this topic).

 

[Candymon]

@furn_ace
Age Preference

I was arguing how if women want to get married, their best chances are at striking when they're at their peak fertility, because according to the statistics, men prefer younger women.
It's all about increasing your chances/odds/probability.

I generally agree with the gist of this. People should increase their chances of success of something they want. Yes, men generally prefer younger women. How young though?

But then you say:

Men of your age range will rather go for the 18-24 year olds instead.

Oh really?
Per Wikipedia, referencing a 1989 study (31+ years ago):

In a cross-cultural study that covered 37 countries,[44] preferences for age differences were measured and research supported the theory that people prefer to marry close to the age when female fertility is at its highest (24–25 years).

Yes really. The wikipedia page explains several theories (yes, I did read beyond the chart) and also fellow commenters have already nicely elaborated on the economic, social, and health factors for this preference in their earlier comments. That age range could be reasonable if you're aiming to be married when the female partner is around 24-25, as it might take some time for the relationship to develop to the point of marriage. Is 18 low? Well, maybe they met during freshman year of college and they are college sweethearts. If the age disparity is higher, then are the two of them happy? Yes? Then that's fine if they're fine. Given your age, it also seems like a not unreasonable age range for you if you were interested in a relationship (I know you said you're not right now).

The study is a bit old, but fertility probably hasn't changed much from an evolutionary standpoint. Are there new theories? Could age preference have changed since then? Let us assume the age preference is more or less the same for the purpose of our discussion. So far, your advice might have merit.

But.

But, age preference != the ages when couples actually get married. Also, how old is the data referenced on Wikipedia?

Statistics on Marriage Age

Ah, yes, but at what age range do these similar age marriages tend to be?
I suggest you continue reading the entire thing, and not just stop at just looking at the chart.

There are global statistics in that wikipedia link too which supports my theory, but sure let's just ignore that.
Your argument can also be applied to obesity in the US. Sure, it might be different from place to place, but that doesn't change the fact that it's prevalent in the US.

Everything has exceptions, duh. That's why I'm using statistics and generalizations, because patterns exist for a reason.

Then how about these tables and charts from the sources you suggested. Have you read the papers and compiled statistics behind them?

US: Doesn't have a breakdown by age of the bride and bridegroom when they first married. Also, being a Current Population Survey, it's a snapshot of their status in 2017, so people are of various ages and could have been married that year or 50 years ago. Can't interpret anything more here. (The US also is pretty terrible at collecting and compiling statistics other than basic information about their national population. Census data does have some interesting nuggets, but I'm sure there's both political and economic reasons why more information isn't collected)

Australia: Let's take a look at summary statistics in 1995 (25 years ago)

Spoiler

Maybe around a 1 year difference

For brides, the first marriage seems to mostly in their 20's. Bridegrooms are generally a few years older.

But maybe more recent data would be better? Australian Bureau of Statistics: Marriages and Divorces, Australia (2018) (data for 2019 will be released on 11/25/2020)

Spoiler

Median age has shifted. Approximately 20% of the population is remarrying as a result of being widowed or divorced, so it's not first marriage. (side note: People finding love at a later age too and it's not limited to one marriage. Potential argument for earlier marriage, or waiting until later depending on what people are looking for).

There's now a sizable bucket (20-25%) for marriage at ages 30-34. The center is still around peak fertility, but maybe actual age range (calculating backwards from the marriage age with a few years of courtship) is early 20's to early 30's? It would be nice to see the split of first marriages vs. remarriage to see if that classification is significant.

UK: The statistics in the wiki are from 2003 (17 years ago). This time, let's just skip to more recent data: Marriages in England and Wales: 2017

Spoiler

Similar numbers to Australia, but the UK distribution is skewed slightly older because of a higher proportion of older marriages and remarriages (23-24% of population). Digging into the dataset on Excel, we have median first marriage age of 31.8 for men and 30.1 for women.

This is another view of the first marriage numbers. For 25yo men and women in the UK, under 10% of them are married. For 30yo men and women in the UK, only a quarter and a third of them are married.

Your advice still has some basis, but marriage trends suggest things are pushing later in life despite general peak fertility. We don't have the underlying data, so it's hard to test if the new distribution is statistically significant. But might have to move those goal posts.


Addressing Further Assertions and Some of My Takes on Relationships:
Let's address other things in comment thread. Starting from your first comment and subsequent responses, some parts reasonable, some not so much...

Strawman argument. I never said anything about choosing career first = miserable life. You high or something?

But you said:

They waste their most attractive/fertile years working, and then wonder why it's hard to find marriage partners post-wall.

Here, let me posit a few darker possibilities :
- she might not end up with anyone at all
- she might end up with someone who just wants her money
- she might end up with someone that she doesn't really want, but have no choice because there aren't any options left (this is what we call "settling for less")
I'm speaking from an American perspective, but usually these single older women will try to expand their options overseas. They're usually taken advantage of by men who just want to get the green card. I've seen it happen many times. It's very sad to look at.

If you decide squander your youth (and its advantages), then you don't have any right to complain if you're having a hard time finding the right one.

Are you high or something? Heh, on a more serious note, no one wants these outcomes either, but I don't think it's as dire as you (or maybe it was another commenter?) seem to imply. Sure, the extreme examples might be good as a rhetorical device, but it's not expressed in a way where it's clear that it's not what you mean until you respond/defend it in later comments.

I think we agree that men and women could benefit from dating and continue to search throughout their twenties if they have the time and desire to do so. It's because it could increase the chance of finding someone. But the phrasing suggested to me and other commenters that women over thirty are just screwed and deserve to be disappointed. I know you've clarified since, but just be aware that's how it comes off. And a very different message from your advice.

And as I said in my previous post:

People will meet potential mates through social and work events, dating apps exist.

People are working it. If the relationship or marriage in front of you is a bad deal, are you going to take it just so you don't "squander your youth"? No, you keep looking, right?

Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but beauty also diminishes over time.

Yes, youthful beauty diminishes over time. Agreed. And some people care about this a lot. Fertility and continued bloodline reasons, self-worth, peacocking ("look at the beauty I was able to snag"), etc.

Why do you think there are so many skin-care products for women? It's to hide/delay the effects of aging, because wrinkles are considered ugly.
"Look at the wrinkles on that chick! That's so hot!" said no man ever.

At a superficial level, yes, wrinkles aren't desired but you have them when you're older. But maybe this is less of a concern for me and maybe we agree to disagree?
Being willing to show wrinkles and your unadorned self for your significant other often suggests a level of trust that, once you're beyond the initial courtship and romance, can become the foundation of a relationship. Just one of many things that go into a relationship.

Are you so sure that by some miracle you're going to be one of those "exceptions"? That's a completely unrealistic expectation. Stupid even. That's like expecting to win the lottery at the first attempt.

As I'll ask rhetorically, have you been in a serious long-term relationship recently and in the past? Have you been engaged to be married before (my ex and I did break it off after several serious discussions over a period of a year, I think for justified reasons)? Do you have a partner that's basically the same age as you?

It sure as hell isn't my first attempt, it's taken several relationships to learn who I am, what I want in a partner, and what it means to be a couple. My dating experiences now have been much more fruitful than the ones from five or ten years ago. Relationships are a lot of work. Your situation is not my situation, and mine is not yours. And thus why we were looking at statistics about the general population earlier. There are entire industries around data analytics, research, and policy because those "patterns exist for a reason".

Look at the new data. Dig deeper if you need to. Then it's up to you to decide what to make of it.

 

[portable]

I do not follow the debate but I am impressed that this has lead to many arguments.

Dunno about what being said, but I think for most men what matter most is beauty/personality and personal fetish.
I do not think people still care in thing like fertility or thing like that today.

 

[secretive783]

Anyone else just learn what a Solenodon is? Cool creature apparently.

 

[portable]

@CookieMuncher

I do not understand why did you get triggered in the first chapter of volume 2.
Anyway as I really like the series I guess I should not trigger you, but I am surprised that traductor could get emotionally implicated by comment at a point they would drop the series because of it.

I mean ignore them even more if it is low quality shitpost.

 

[CookieMuncher]

I just didn’t want the things I was scanlating to create such toxcity in the comments. I wasnt personally offended. ^_^ @Portable

 

[portable]

@CookieMuncher
I can understand you a bit, I mean it is impressive that people succeed to create heated debate about a gag comedy.
Anyway having this kind of thing mean that you attracted a wide and diverse crowd meaning that this manga is quitte popular.
And as always tanks for the translation.

 

[gr8g]

solenodon woah never heard of this animal and its Venomous too!! it's quite educating now 😂

 

[1234muse]

@CookieMuncher I know what you mean. sometimes it's better to just make a tactical retreat

 

[furn_ace]

Your advice still has some basis

Yes, the statistics do support my advice, but that's not all. I also posited that biology plays a major role in this, which you seem to completely ignore.
I've stated that males are hardwired to desire fertile females. I'm too lazy to reiterate my previous talking points, so you can go ahead and just refer to the evolutionary perspective section from that wikipedia page I linked.

but marriage trends suggest things are pushing later in life despite general peak fertility.

Which explains why Down syndrome has become more common in recent years.

Are you high or something? Heh, on a more serious note, no one wants these outcomes either, but I don't think it's as dire as you (or maybe it was another commenter?) seem to imply. Sure, the extreme examples might be good as a rhetorical device, but it's not expressed in a way where it's clear that it's not what you mean until you respond/defend it in later comments.

Strawman argument.
First of all, I merely pointed out that they have no right to complain if they're having a hard time later. Somehow you interpret confusion as misery.
Second, I merely posited darker possibilities to counter the poster's more idealistic viewpoint. Of course I have to bring up the possibilities of a miserable end. Am I suppose to counter idealism with even more idealism now?

People are working it. If the relationship or marriage in front of you is a bad deal, are you going to take it just so you don't "squander your youth"? No, you keep looking, right?

Off tangent. I've already mentioned multiple times that my argument is all about increasing the odds of getting a marriage partner. But here you go with your "muh happiness" rhetoric.

At a superficial level, yes

Sigh. There are no other levels to physical beauty other than the superficial. What are you even on about?

Being willing to show wrinkles and your unadorned self for your significant other often suggests a level of trust that, once you're beyond the initial courtship and romance, can become the foundation of a relationship. Just one of many things that go into a relationship.

Yes, the "muh happiness" process begins after the initial courtship and romance, not before.

It's taken several relationships to learn who I am, what I want in a partner, and what it means to be a couple. My dating experiences now have been much more fruitful than the ones from five or ten years ago. Relationships are a lot of work.

You've cornered yourself here. Pay attention to your own words that I've underlined.
If you started younger, you'll have more time to gain experience, therefore learning how to make a relationship work much earlier. Also if you decide to have children later, you'll have less advanced maternal age risks (because you're younger). You have more to gain and less to lose by starting early.

 

[vzzzn]

what is this comment section im not reading all of that, congratulations or sorry that happened

 

[Candymon]

@furn_ace (tagging you since you didn't tag me)
Um… I feel like I already agreed to a lot of points you’re trying to reassert….
[ul][li]Yes, biological component in age preference[/li][li]Yes, starting earlier/more attempts could increase your chances of success[/li][li]Yes, there are lower success rates and higher health risks with older births[/li][li]But people are increasingly still getting married later anyways (i.e. not as many marrying late teens/early 20's). Yes, you’re probably correct if suggesting maximizing odds since a relationship isn't guaranteed to lead to marriage/kids/desired outcome, but odds on getting married later on don’t seem to be bad either. You make sense from a pure probabilistic standpoint, but I posit that decisions in real life are based on what’s a tolerable rate of success/failure, and people are willing to take different odds.[/li][li]It’s not off tangent, keep looking = increase the odds for a desired outcome. A bad deal = marriage = success? = unhappiness/divorce later? Can be a lot of social and familial pressures to take the bad deal. You seemed to be worried about divorce, as am I. Hopefully we don’t increase the odds of that in the first place? There does seem to be a not insignificant divorce rate. Maybe we should be discussing the odds of a good relationship/marriage too?[/li][li]Yes, we agree that the bad outcomes are bad and are worth pointing out. Only question is how common are they? We don’t have the data for this, but I would be interested in the actual numbers instead of just anecdotes. And yes, people usually are disappointed when they don't get what they want. Your diction suggests something less flattering...[/li][li]We agree on youthful physical beauty fading over time. Wrinkles might be generally not desired, but not necessarily considered not beautiful. Also why there are anti-aging products is there's money to be made/a demand to be met, though how much of that demand is genuine or artificially boosted? That's a longer discussion than I want to discuss here though.[/li][li]The showing yourself part is during the romance part… becomes a building block of the stability part afterwards. I see this as an action that yields benefits that lead to marriage, so it’s not a pure “negative”/maybe even net positive. It doesn’t contradict the previous bullet.[/li][li]Corner myself? I was responding to:

Are you so sure that by some miracle you're going to be one of those "exceptions”?

You’re attempting to use a character attack (based on your earlier posts, suggesting I haven’t been dating and implying I’m clueless.) to discredit me? I’m just describing my situation. I enjoy being in relationships that I have had, marriage being a potential byproduct of a successful relationship (I could also stay in the relationship, have kids, and still not get married). I’m fine with my situation. It doesn’t conflict with your advice nor anything we said above either.[/li][li]Are you happy with your situation? The data also shows the age disparity shrinking, so if you want 18-24 year olds in order to take advantage of your partner’s peak fertility, isn’t now the time to maximize your odds? Will you be disappointed if you reach your 30’s and don’t find someone? And if you do find someone, according to your anecdotes (wants your money/green card, "undesirable partners"), will it be a happy marriage?[/li][li]Again, current marriage trends are larger than either of our situations, and people are getting married later anyways. Maybe they are taking your agreed advice of dating earlier/during our 20’s and beyond in increasing the odds, maybe they are not. But the trend is suggesting later marriage, regardless of what happens before. We don't have the data for number of previous relationships, so we can't extrapolate.[/li][/ul]
Are people marrying later happy? Based on my personal experience of observing friends, seems like it. They’re on their own terms, marrying when they’re financially stable and ready to start a family (which usually reduces the chance of marital unhappiness and divorce). Yes, health risks for older pregnancy, etc. etc. but people are okay or at least have to live with those risks.

 

[furn_ace]

@Candymon

(tagging you since you didn't tag me)

Oops. Must've accidentally erased it when I was editing the whole post.

You make sense from a pure probabilistic standpoint, but I posit that decisions in real life are based on what’s a tolerable rate of success/failure, and people are willing to take different odds.

Yes, and if they willingly take those odds, they have no right to complain later like Tomi Lahren or the characters in this chapter.

It’s not off tangent

It is off tangent. As I said before my argument is all about increasing the odds of getting/finding a marriage partner.
The first step. The initial contact. You keep arguing on and on about "happiness in a relationship" which comes later.

Maybe we should be discussing the odds of a good relationship/marriage too?

I'd rather not, since there are way too many vague subjective variables to deal with, which differ from person to person.
It'll end in disagreement, because everyone has different expectations, preferences and experiences. So why bother?

Yes, we agree that the bad outcomes are bad and are worth pointing out. Only question is how common are they? We don’t have the data for this, but I would be interested in the actual numbers instead of just anecdotes. And yes, people usually are disappointed when they don't get what they want. Your diction suggests something less flattering...
We agree on youthful physical beauty fading over time. Wrinkles might be generally not desired, but not necessarily considered not beautiful. Also why there are anti-aging products is there's money to be made/a demand to be met, though how much of that demand is genuine or artificially boosted? That's a longer discussion than I want to discuss here though.
The showing yourself part is during the romance part… becomes a building block of the stability part afterwards. I see this as an action that yields benefits that lead to marriage, so it’s not a pure “negative”/maybe even net positive. It doesn’t contradict the previous bullet.

See what I mean? You keep going on with your "muh happiness" rhetoric.

You’re attempting to use a character attack (based on your earlier posts, suggesting I haven’t been dating and implying I’m clueless.) to discredit me?

I'm talking about women in general, not you specifically.
And you did countered yourself. You said that for you, it took a lot of time and experience to learn how to make a relationship work.
That means if women start earlier, they'll have more time to experience things and learn + less risk from late pregnancies.

The data also shows the age disparity shrinking, so if you want 18-24 year olds in order to take advantage of your partner’s peak fertility, isn’t now the time to maximize your odds? Will you be disappointed if you reach your 30’s and don’t find someone?

Marriage doesn't appeal to me, since that means I'll have to (technically) share 100% of my life with another person, which (as a massive introvert) I don't find comfortable with.
I'd rather just use women for sex, so in a way, I am taking advantage of my partners' peak fertility lol. Additionally, the marriage environment is exceedingly hostile towards men in current year (false accusations, divorce rape, etc). High risk, zero reward = why bother?

Are people marrying later happy? Based on my personal experience of observing friends, seems like it. They’re on their own terms, marrying when they’re financially stable and ready to start a family (which usually reduces the chance of marital unhappiness and divorce).

Let me counter that idealism. When women marry later, they have to lower down their standards and settle for less aka the leftovers as this chapter puts it (because the pool is much smaller when you're older). That regret can eat them and cause potential problems later on.

Yes, health risks for older pregnancy, etc. etc. but people are okay or at least have to live with those risks.

Or, you can just start early and not live with those risks.
For example, you could build your house near an earthquake prone area, but isn't it better to build it somewhere safer if you have the opportunity to do so?

 

[Candymon]

@furn_ace

Or, you can just start early and not live with those risks.
For example, you could build your house near an earthquake prone area, but isn't it better to build it somewhere safer if you have the opportunity to do so?

Straw man argument? No one willingly builds near a danger zone... unless they have reasons that they believe outweigh the risk.

Yes, and if they willingly take those odds, they have no right to complain later like Tomi Lahren or the characters in this chapter.

Tomi Lahren rant is inappropriately blaming younger women (scapegoating), out of frustration from her lack of dating success, when it seems to be more of a Tomi Lahren and her desired dating partners problem. Her viewpoints and her career are... interesting. I think those would be factors regardless of her age, because maybe the guys she is after don't share her values or just not interested in the "total package." Age could be a factor, but Tomi seems to be complaining in bad faith. You seem to know more about her situation, so I'll let you be the judge.

The characters in this chapter are not complaining about not being married, they're annoyed at the guy being rude and sexist in a social setting and harassing the lady about her marital status. I also begin to realize the reason why you gave this advice in the comments section is probably because of the "leftovers" dialogue by the guy...
...
...in fact, they never complain about age. Kanako complains about her old boss' power harassment, Kiyomi complains about some guys' objectification of women.
...
...anyways, moving on. Other things to discuss.

I said:

Maybe we should be discussing the odds of a good relationship/marriage too?

You replied:

I'd rather not, since there are way too many vague subjective variables to deal with, which differ from person to person.
It'll end in disagreement, because everyone has different expectations, preferences and experiences. So why bother?

I meant it mostly as a rhetorical question because, as you mention, it is rather personal and harder to generalize. Tracking divorces along with marriages, however, is one proxy that could be used as a measure of "good" marriages.

It is off tangent. As I said before my argument is all about increasing the odds of getting/finding a marriage partner.
The first step. The initial contact. You keep arguing on and on about "happiness in a relationship" which comes later.

See what I mean? You keep going on with your "muh happiness" rhetoric.

How does one intend to romance or marry another person without working on happiness in a relationshIp? If there's not happiness (e.g. trust, affection, sex), don't people just... break up?

I'm talking about women in general, not you specifically.

...it seemed like an ad hominem attack, but I'll let it pass.

And you did countered yourself. You said that for you, it took a lot of time and experience to learn how to make a relationship work.
That means if women start earlier, they'll have more time to experience things and learn + less risk from late pregnancies.

I don't want to go into a whole discussion about outcomes and probabilistic independence, but I think you're mistaking the probability of a set of outcomes (overall success) with unequal probabilities and one outcome (either married or not). If two people meet up and it's a good match, that's it.

(Not to mention the probability of meeting someone is unequal: some will be easier to meet, others less so, even though you're in the same geographic location. Social and work circles matter, what dating app you use matters, etc. Then when you do actually meet people, the probabilities of getting married to that person vs another person you meet is also unequal. When you decide to get married, you're pulled out of the dating pool, plus new people enter and widows or divorcees reenter the pool. Lots of fun math and statistics to consider)

So to loop back to the main argument, yes, having more meetings does increase your chances of finding someone, but getting someone to marry you is a question of a marriage conversion probability, and you're ignoring this. You don't necessarily need more experience in order to marry someone (maybe you marry the first person you date; i can think of several "older" people like that; some people don't need to go through the path I did to figure things out), but it could help. And you're trying to use my personal experience to apply it to everyone else? No no no, just because my one individual case is like this, it doesn't invalidate the general argument (selection bias? cherrypicking?). I almost got married at one point; I'm very glad I didn't because several partners since then have been better than my ex-fiancé. Which is why for now "settle for less" doesn't seem to apply and more like "upgraded" for me. But we'll see.

Let me counter that idealism. When women marry later, they have to lower down their standards and settle for less aka the leftovers as this chapter puts it (because the pool is much smaller when you're older). That regret can eat them and cause potential problems later on.

So now you want to talk about happiness? What if the dating pool when they're older is of higher quality mates of similar age (per your model, men generally are making more money the older they get, and therefore more "high value")? What of people that marry early maybe regretting not dating more before "settling down" with someone. There's also the idea of hedonic adaptation, so happiness and regrets probably depends more on a person's situation and expectations, and then how well they adjust.

We can throw all that out the window if you think peak fertility is what's most important, but just wanted include some other models out there. You have your anecdotes, I have mine. What's true in the general population? I don't know.

Marriage doesn't appeal to me, since that means I'll have to (technically) share 100% of my life with another person, which (as a massive introvert) I don't find comfortable with.
I'd rather just use women for sex, so in a way, I am taking advantage of my partners' peak fertility lol. Additionally, the marriage environment is exceedingly hostile towards men in current year (false accusations, divorce rape, etc). High risk, zero reward = why bother?

Doesn't seem like your environment is good for you. If you've figured out works in your situation, then cheers and carry on.

 

[furn_ace]

@Candymon

The characters in this chapter are not complaining about not being married, they're annoyed at the guy being rude and sexist in a social setting and harassing the lady about her marital status.

I suppose complain is the wrong word. They feel the pressure (the need to get married) though, and were triggered after hearing the words "best before" and "leftovers".

How does one intend to romance or marry another person without working on happiness in a relationshIp?

Jesus fucking Christ.
1. Find someone
2. Have a relationship
How does one intend to work on a relationship without even being in a relationship?
You need to find someone first. You crazy person.

My points have always been about maximizing the odds of finding marriage partners (first contact + increasing your pool of candidates).
Your points are about relationship stability aka making a relationship work.
Your points only occur after my point is done.

I don't want to go into a whole discussion about outcomes and probabilistic independence, but I think you're mistaking the probability of a set of outcomes (overall success) with unequal probabilities and one outcome (either married or not). If two people meet up and it's a good match, that's it.

I know how that works. But do both of them know that they were going to be a good match? No, they don't. It is completely unwise to rely on miracles.

So to loop back to the main argument, yes, having more meetings does increase your chances of finding someone, but getting someone to marry you is a question of a marriage conversion probability, and you're ignoring this.

I'm ignoring it because it has nothing to do with my points, as I've explained multiple times. I don't know if it's because of miscommunication or you're just retarded, but I'm going to assume the former.

You don't necessarily need more experience in order to marry someone (maybe you marry the first person you date; i can think of several "older" people like that; some people don't need to go through the path I did to figure things out), but it could help. And you're trying to use my personal experience to apply it to everyone else? No no no, just because my one individual case is like this, it doesn't invalidate the general argument (selection bias? cherrypicking?).

More anecdotes.

I almost got married at one point; I'm very glad I didn't because several partners since then have been better than my ex-fiancé. Which is why for now "settle for less" doesn't seem to apply and more like "upgraded" for me. But we'll see.

I'll play your game of what ifs and use one here. What if you started earlier, have a better pool, and have a lot of better options than your current partner? All of which are now out of your reach because you're not even on their radar anymore.

So now you want to talk about happiness?

Because you keep bringing it up no matter how many times I said that it has nothing to do with my points.

What if, what if, what if?

Subjective arguments, which I can counter easily by providing my own "what if"s. See what I mean? It goes on forever.

What if the dating pool when they're older is of higher quality mates of similar age (per your model, men generally are making more money the older they get, and therefore more "high value")?

What do you mean by quality? People value different things. See? This is what I don't like about subjective arguments. It goes nowhere.

What if people that marry early maybe regretting not dating more before "settling down" with someone.

What do you mean by regretting not dating more? Regretting that they haven't fucked a billion cocks/pussies before settling down? 🤣🤣🤣 Why bother marrying at all, then? I guess they want to satisfy their fetish of cucking or being cucked? 🤣🤣🤣 Either way they're terrible partners.
If you're talking about regretting not finding a better man, the same can be said for older women who have to lower their standards (due to a shrinking pool) and settle for less, no?

There's also the idea of hedonic adaptation, so happiness and regrets probably depends more on a person's situation and expectations, and then how well they adjust.

Yes, depends on the person.

We can throw all that out the window if you think peak fertility is what's most important, but just wanted include some other models out there.

My model is about increasing the odds of finding a partner, which is backed by objective facts : statistics and evolutionary biology.
Your models are about relationship stability, which is backed by vague subjective arguments (what ifs) and anecdotes.

What's true in the general population? I don't know.

The one backed with objective facts, obviously.